#12 Highest Peak of All Time (Walton '77 wins)

Post #1 » by **Doctor MJ** » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:55 pm

Okay, Garnett '04 actually secured a legit majority of votes so we're starting the new thread early. Still intend to let it go until Monday unless we see another clinching.

Dr Positivity · Post #2 » by **Dr Positivity** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:05 am

Feeling strongly towards voting 77 Bill Walton. Massive impact through his defense, scoring, passing, energy level, etc.

thebottomline · Post #3 » by **thebottomline** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:14 am

Guessing this will be Erving vs. Walton. I'm interested in reading about how good Dr. J was defensively if anyone could share. Something I noticed is how dominant defensively his Nets were from 74-76, then he joins the Sixers and they're dominant defensively from 77-84. His STL% and BLK% are very impressive, near 3% each during his prime (did it in both ABA and NBA) and 2.5% each for his career - the only notable player to average 2.5%+ in both (when ranking that list by WS, the 2nd highest guy to accomplish that feat has only 7.2 career WS).

Anyone care to break down his defensive impact? His defensive strengths and weaknesses (if any). Was he merely good or possibly great? I never see him come up when talking about the great wing defenders.

colts18 · Post #4 » by **colts18** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:16 am

Walton has a great argument. This list is Margin of victory based on Standard deviations from the mean

78 Blazers: 2.87 Standard deviations from the mean
77 Blazers: 2.40 Standard deviations
96 Bulls: 2.32 Standard deviations
04 Spurs: 1.83 Standard deviations (leaders in 2004)
04 Wolves: 1.39 Standard deviations

So the Blazers with Walton were playing better than the 96 Bulls.

C-izMe · Post #5 » by **C-izMe** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:39 am

Since I didn't get my vote in on the last one I'll go 76 Dr. J.

Josephpaul · Post #6 » by **Josephpaul** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:42 am

Kobe Bryant 2009 season was a season where Kobe proved he could win a title without a HOF of the likes of Shaq, a season that propelled him into the top 15. A playoff run where he avg 30.2/ 5AST/5 Trb . In the finals he avg 32.4 points and 7.4 AST , the second player to avg these types of a numbers in the NBA finals. This is the year you can say Kobe Bryant was transcending to different level.

My vote Kobe 09.

colts18 · Post #7 » by **colts18** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:53 am

Josephpaul wrote:Kobe Bryant 2009 season was a season where Kobe proved he could win a title without a HOF of the likes of Shaq, a season that propelled him into the top 15. A playoff run where he avg 30.2/ 5AST/5 Trb . In the finals he avg 32.4 points and 7.4 AST , the second player to avg these types of a numbers in the NBA finals. This is the year you can say Kobe Bryant was transcending to different level.

My vote Kobe 09.

Gasol is a HOF

Josephpaul · Post #8 » by **Josephpaul** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:55 am

On his NBA merits? I hope not.

colts18 · Post #9 » by **colts18** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:13 am

Josephpaul wrote:On his NBA merits? I hope not.

yes. He is one of the top 60 players in history. Compare him to McHale and he is not far off at all.

Post #10 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:19 am

Josephpaul wrote:On his NBA merits? I hope not.

An absolute lock.

Post #11 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:21 am

Josephpaul wrote:Kobe Bryant 2009 season was a season where Kobe proved he could win a title without a HOF of the likes of Shaq, a season that propelled him into the top 15. A playoff run where he avg 30.2/ 5AST/5 Trb . In the finals he avg 32.4 points and 7.4 AST , the second player to avg these types of a numbers in the NBA finals. This is the year you can say Kobe Bryant was transcending to different level.

My vote Kobe 09.

This is interesting, because this was not the year I'd have expected to see mentioned first for Kobe. I was thinking '01, '06 or '08. I can see why '09 would have case though.

Josephpaul · Post #12 » by **Josephpaul** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:29 am

colts18 wrote:
Josephpaul wrote:On his NBA merits? I hope not.

yes. He is one of the top 60 players in history. Compare him to McHale and he is not far off at all.

I saw the 100 list tell me how he's a better player than Benard King , melo ? So 18.9 PTs and 9.2 Reb 3.2 is a general statline for HOF?

Josephpaul · Post #13 » by **Josephpaul** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:31 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
Josephpaul wrote:On his NBA merits? I hope not.

An absolute lock.

Please explain.

Post #14 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:36 am

thebottomline wrote:Guessing this will be Erving vs. Walton. I'm interested in reading about how good Dr. J was defensively if anyone could share. Something I noticed is how dominant defensively his Nets were from 74-76, then he joins the Sixers and they're dominant defensively from 77-84. His STL% and BLK% are very impressive, near 3% each during his prime (did it in both ABA and NBA) and 2.5% each for his career - the only notable player to average 2.5%+ in both (when ranking that list by WS, the 2nd highest guy to accomplish that feat has only 7.2 career WS).

Anyone care to break down his defensive impact? His defensive strengths and weaknesses (if any). Was he merely good or possibly great? I never see him come up when talking about the great wing defenders.

Here's the best article I know on the subject:

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/200 ... hawks.html

Most informative snippet:

Hall of Famer Billy Cunningham, who coached the 76ers during the seasons in question, amplifies those sentiments: "Julius had the great ability to block shots. His anticipation defensively for steals and creating turnovers was just wonderful and he was definitely underrated in that regard. He took a great deal of pride in his defense. We had to rely on our quickness more than physically overpowering teams. If Julius went for the steal and missed, there was supposed to somebody there giving him support until he recovered and got back into the defensive set."

So Erving's got basically you'd expect from an elite help and team defender at the forward positive.

1. The right stats.
2. The right team data.
3. The praise from teammates and coaches on exactly what we need to know: Was Erving getting you burned with his gambling? Answer: Heck no, we relied upon his gambling and knew full well that that meant you had to be prepared for missed attempts sometimes.

Everything, except the All-D accolades, which most already agree are virtually worthless.

So yes, I think it quite likely that Erving was an excellent defender.

I will say I can't get anything on his man defense, and you've got to play man sometimes. However, if you're playing rover, you're not playing man while you're roving.

This is also something relating to the comparison with Kobe, and Kobe's comparison with Jordan. People have a tendency to say Kobe was the best in the biz for his position's defense "just like Jordan was", but when Jordan was blowing people's minds on defense, it was with his rover work. The man seemed to be everywhere at once.

Erving thus would be much more like Jordan on defense, than the more man defense-minded Kobe. Doesn't necessarily mean one is better than the other, just that straight comparisons between these guys should be considered far more difficult than people tend to pretend.

Josephpaul · Post #15 » by **Josephpaul** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:39 am

Defensive awards are based off reputation so worthless is the wrong term.

Post #16 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:41 am

Josephpaul wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Josephpaul wrote:On his NBA merits? I hope not.

An absolute lock.

Please explain.

Name me another player who has been the #2 player on a 2-star team that won 2 titles and made 3 finals who isn't in the Hall. You can't so...

Now truth be told, "star" is a vague term, and were a player a borderline all-star who really only was good those 3 years, that wouldn't be enough to make the Hall. However, Gasol was a B-list star for many years before this, and his transition to being the secondary star was astonishing. He was far more impressive in that role than, say, who ever is playing second banana in Miami at any given time. You can then look to the advanced stats and see Gasol actually topping the #1 on his team at time and getting mention as a MVP & Finals MVP candidate, all while being the good guy on the team who actually plays his coach's offense the way his coach wants it to be played...oh, and his coach is considered the GOAT coach by a lot of people so the coach probably knows what he's doing.

Post #17 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:42 am

Josephpaul wrote:Defensive awards are based off reputation so worthless is the wrong term.

Sounds like you've done a good job here of showing exactly why I'm write to call them "worthless". Awards for current play that get decided by previous reputation have no worth.

Post #18 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:44 am

Josephpaul wrote:I saw the 100 list tell me how he's a better player than Benard King , melo ? So 18.9 PTs and 9.2 Reb 3.2 is a general statline for HOF?

He's not better than Bernard King was, but King wasn't "King" for very long.

He's certainly better than Melo. Melo has never had a big impact on team success, period. Unfortunately that's moot though because if you're wondering how Gasol will get in the Hall when Melo won't, well, Melo's going to get in the Hall. He shouldn't, but he will.

Josephpaul · Post #19 » by **Josephpaul** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:51 am

Advance stats like win shares? Have we forgotten how he played the last 2 years in the playoffs?

JordansBulls · Post #20 » by **JordansBulls** » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:55 am

Between these guys for me

--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
Moses Malone 1983: 25.1, 0.248 -----25.7, 0.260 (13 playoff games, title)
Dwyane Wade 2006: 27.6, 0.239-------26.9, 0.240 (23 playoff games, title)
Julius Erving 1976: 28.7, 0.262-----32.0, 0.321 (13 playoff games, title) - ABA

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/ ... ormances-1

2006 WADE'S STATS
Points per game: 34.7
Boards per game: 7.8
Steals per game: 2.7
PER: 33.8

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2 ... nces-11-20

MOSES MALONE FINALS STATS
Points per game: 25.8
Boards per game: 18.0
Blocks per game: 1.5
PER: 26.0

VOTE: Dwyane Wade 2006. This guy carried the Heat this season and his production was clearly superior to any of his teammates this season and then to top it off had a historic Conference Finals and NBA Finals.