#12 Highest Peak of All Time (Walton '77 wins)

[therealbig3]

@bastillon

I think you're selling Walton's scoring short. He was a good midrange shooter and was good in the PnR. He had a decent array of moves down low, including jump hooks and turnaround jumpers. And he was the ultimate garbage man, and got a lot of baskets off dump offs and put backs.

Put it all together, I can see a guy who can consistently score around 20 ppg on solid efficiency if he needed to, much like he actually did in 77 and 78.

I don't think he could volume score like someone like Hakeem or even Duncan/Garnett, but he was pretty good, and again, it was his least valuable contribution.

[bastillon]

@bastillon

I think you're selling Walton's scoring short. He was a good midrange shooter and was good in the PnR. He had a decent array of moves down low, including jump hooks and turnaround jumpers. And he was the ultimate garbage man, and got a lot of baskets off dump offs and put backs.

Put it all together, I can see a guy who can consistently score around 20 ppg on solid efficiency if he needed to, much like he actually did in 77 and 78.

I don't think he could volume score like someone like Hakeem or even Duncan/Garnett, but he was pretty good, and again, it was his least valuable contribution.

note I specifically mentioned scoring skills, not scoring output. I could see Walton being 20+ ppg player on certain type of teams but if you put him in the low post against Ewing/Hakeem/Dwight, he'd get embarassed before he scored a single point IMO. his low post game consisted of 2 moves basically - turnaround jumper and jump hook. he could use both hands so he kind of had basic counters but that's not really better than Marc Gasol for example. to me Walton most certainly doesn't look like a guy you can run isolation offense through. 4-1 strategy that worked so beautifully with Dream or Shaq would be a disaster with Walton. he'd be easily shut down by any decent post defender IMO. his scoring ABILITIES were definitely limited. compare his scoring with McHale's and it's like night and day. McHale makes it look so easy in comparison.

Walton's extreme version of Tim Duncan. he has the same pros and cons but more extreme. Duncan's generally celebrated as a great rebounder and team player. Walton was better at both. but Duncan was never a truly great low post scorer - Walton wasn't either but even moreso.

I know Walton had great impact, particularly on defense, but I think he'd be exposed in certain matchups. IMO Blazers don't get past the Lakers if Kareem had comparable cast. I don't even know if he'd get past those Bulls if they had some more talent.

Blazers didn't really have any backup center so their numbers without Walton look way off to me. Mo Lucas was a legit modern 20/10 PF with decent jumper, better scoring skills than Walton himself and at least comparable man defense. Gross was a very intelligent off ball player, crafty finisher and scored at insane TS%. Hollins was a great defensive PG, he actually had a game with 8 steals against the Lakers (or more - I didn't finish watching that game). Blazers had some shooters, they had excellent speed in transition and they didn't really have any bad players on that team. they were far more talented than Bulls or Lakers. this is why A-Train and Kareem lost those series, not because of Walton outplaying them.

still, the most impressive thing I find about Walton is how strong his teams were. 70-15 stretch is insane. Walton could lift his teams to epic heights and that's very valuable for the purposes of our project. but at the same time he was clearly matchup vulnerable - he didn't have as big an impact vs opposing HOF Cs IMO. Walton could barely stay out of foul trouble when they were playing vs Bulls. he was hopelessly miserable trying to stop Kareem.

[therealbig3]

^But he was still having big impact against Gilmore and Kareem. As ElGee pointed out, it's more than just "this guy scored this many points against him, and Walton scored only this much"...Walton plays a completely different style than those two, and similar to Duncan and Garnett, he doesn't need to score or even shut down his matchup in order to dominate a game.

And similar to what was said about LeBron and the Celtics defense...are you really "matchup-vulnerable" or are you really getting "exposed" if it takes another HOF center to limit you? If that's what it takes, then you're pretty frikin good.

[bastillon]

^But he was still having big impact against Gilmore and Kareem. As ElGee pointed out, it's more than just "this guy scored this many points against him, and Walton scored only this much"...Walton plays a completely different style than those two, and similar to Duncan and Garnett, he doesn't need to score or even shut down his matchup in order to dominate a game.

And similar to what was said about LeBron and the Celtics defense...are you really "matchup-vulnerable" or are you really getting "exposed" if it takes another HOF center to limit you? If that's what it takes, then you're pretty frikin good.

I never said he didn't have great impact against Gilmore and Kareem. I said it was lower than usually. he really struggled against both at times and they could both win the series vs Walton if their casts were as good. I know Walton always did the little things and that matters a lot, but at the same time we're entering into dangerous area where whatever Walton does he'll be excused because he did the little things (and they're hardly measurable).

as for HOF center stuff... it's #12 highest peak thread. we just voted in KG's monstrous 04 season. I'm very critical because that's the type of competition Walton is facing. I really don't know if he's any better than Dirk 11 for example. different strengths, sure, but is his impact stronger ?

also, while I'm here, I'd like you to look further at Nate Thurmond in the late 60s. he's not a serious candidate at this point, but since we've been debating whether Walton's impact could translate into different teams, Thurmond's somewhat similar case might give some helpful hints. Thurmond was leading MVP Race in 1968 before he got hurt (season ending injury) and his impact was monstrous at the time:

Thurmond 1967 (16g) 12.7 to 5.4
Thurmond 1968 (31g) 10.5 to 3.4
Thurmond 1969 (12g) 8.4 to -0.4
Thurmond 1970 (40g) 5.8 to -1.6

he's been known as top man defender ever, repeatedly shutting down both Wilt and Kareem. he actually met with Wilt couple times in the postseason (67, 69) and held his own pretty well. where did his impact come from ? was it all defense or was he also somewhat good as an offensive player despite his poor efficiency ?

[bastillon]

more on Thurmond vs Wilt from 69 RPOY:

Thurmond and the Warriors had a great chance to upset the Lakers in the first round. They were up 2-0 (both games in LA) and then their leading scorer Mullins injured his knee, ended up playing less than 25 mints on a gimpy knee for rest of the games. Warriors then proceeded to lose 4 straight. Thurmond did a great job on Wilt, holding him to 11, 10, 22, 11, 7, 11 points in their matchups, an average of 12 ppg on 49-50 FG%, compared to Wilt's 21 ppg on 58% in the regular season. Thurmond averaged 17/19/5 for the series but like always his FG% was very low, only 39.2%.

[ThaRegul8r]

I'm not going to post the same things PTB Fan did, but something different.

Bill Walton is a party pooper.

A record crowd of 19,889, the most ever to watch pro basketball in Chicago, turned out at the Stadium to watch Walton and the powerful Portland Trail Blazers battle Artis Gilmore and the surging Chicago Bulls last night. And with three minutes to go, the home folks were happy as their club clung to a 75-74 lead.

But Walton hit a free throw to tie the score, then banked in a pair of baskets before scoring the game’s final point on a free throw. He also grabbed four rebounds in those final three minutes.

Walton led all players with 29 points and 18 rebounds. He limited Gilmore to just two free throws in the second half and a total of 10 points.

“Walton is the best center I’ve ever coached,” the Blazers Jack Ramsay said flatly.

The victory lifted Portland’s record to 23-10, best in the National Basketball Association. Chicago had won nine of its previous 11.

Walton credited assistant coach Jack McKinney with “turning the game around for us. He talked to us at halftime and told us to force the guards outside and keep the forwards in the middle to neutralize any outside shooting. We got tough on defense and shut them off.”

The Bulls squandered a 56-47 lead as Portland went on a 17-2 tear in the third quarter. Chicago fought back to take the lead in the fourth quarter before Walton spoiled the party.

Question and Answer

Q. Is Bill Walton of Portland developing into the dominant player of the NBA, as Bill Russell once was with the Celtics? Also, what does Russell say about Walton?

A. Walton, until he was sidelined by Achilles tendon trouble recently, had come to be recognized as an intimidator on defense, a great one at getting a fast break started, as well as considerably effective offensively. Russell himself says, “that fella reminds me of someone I used to coach,” referring to 1969 when Russell was player-coach with Boston.

After eliminating the Denver Nuggets in six games in the Western Conference Semifinals, Portland coach Jack Ramsay said, “The players seem to want Los Angeles, because they’d like to prove they can beat the Lakers” (The Pittsburgh Press, May 3, 1977).


1977 Western Conference Finals

INGLEWOOD, Calif. (UPI) — If the Los Angeles Lakers are going to beat the Portland Trail Blazers in the NBA playoffs, they’re going to have to have a strong offensive series, Laker coach Jerry West says.

“You simply must stop their running,” West said of Bill Walton and the Trail Blazers. “That is the key to the series for us. They have tremendous quickness. Without a doubt, they’re the quickest team in the league.

“In order for us to do that, we must execute our offense better than we did against Golden State. If you miss your shots, Portland can run. If you don’t miss, they can’t run. It’s just about that simple.

“You can’t contain Walton’s outlet pass because he’s such a great player. That’s simply impossible. The thing we have to do is score. That way, they can’t run as much.”

However, that proved to be easier said than done in Game 1, which Portland took 121-109.

The first round of the UCLA alumni Invitational went to Bill Walton, class of 74, with a lot of help from his classy Portland teammates of ’77.

It was supposed to be a showdown between the two former star centers of UCLA’s glory years. Walton and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, once known as Lew Alcindor, class of ’69.

But what Friday night’s National Basketball Association semifinal playoff between Walton’s Trail Blazers and Abdul-Jabbar’s Los Angeles Lakers turned out to be was a runaway, namely Walton handing the ball to a variety of teammates who ran through the Lakers’ defense and rolled up a 121-109 victory.

That shattered the Lakers’ near invincibility at home this year (they were 41-5 going into the game) and shifted the home court advantage to the Trail Blazers. The teams meet again today before heading to Portland for the third and fourth games in the best of seven series.

…

Walton had 22 points to Abdul-Jabbar’s 30 and Maurice Lucas, Portland’s top scorer, had 28 points to Earl Tatum’s 32. But the Lakers had nothing to match the high scoring Portland balance—Lionel Hollins’ 25 points and Johnny Davis’ 20. More importantly, the Lakers had nothing to stop the Trail Blazers’ back door plays. Time after time the guards or forwards passed to Walton, charged to the hoop, took the return pass and put in the easy layups with the Lakers looking on helplessly and hopelessly out of position.

“They have tremendous quickness,” said Lakers Coach Jerry West. “They were a lot quicker than we were … I don’t know how many baskets they scored from four or five feet, but it was quite a few.”

Said Portland Coach Jack Ramsey: “We ran the way we wanted. Walton did a good job on Kareem with a little help … We stressed ball and player movement, and, as a result, got some key baskets.”

Game 2

The Los Angeles Lakers are in trouble.

The Lakers […] are down 2-0 in their best-of-seven National Basketball Association semifinal series. […] [T]he Lakers had set an NBA record by winning 37 of 41 regular season games at home. So, they have lost two straight playoff games to the Portland Trail Blazers, both at Los Angeles.

After the Philadelphia 76ers had beaten the Rockets in Philadelphia, 106-97, in the first half of a nationally televised doubleheader, it was time for the Lakers and the Trail Blazers to show their stuff.

What it showed was that the Lakers cannot always rely on Kareem Abdul-Jabbar to bail them out.

Not This Time

This time, with time running out, the 12 foot jump shot that Abdul-Jabbar released with all five Trail Blazers surrounding him did not go in — as it had so often all game and all year — and the Lakers lost in Los Angeles, 99-97.

While Bill Walton, the Blazers’ rapidly maturing center, and Jack Ramsay, his coach, hugged at midcourt, Abdul-Jabbar and the team he has taken so far, walked off — down by two points on the scoreboard, down two games to none in their playoff series, down psychologically and, possibly, down for the count.

The next two games of the series will be played in Portland Tuesday and Friday, giving the Trail Blazers, who are also extremely strong at home, a chance to sweep the series without returning to Los Angeles.

Guards Run Wild

While Abdul-Jabbar was scoring 40 points and pulling down 17 rebounds against Walton, the Lakers were being beaten at the guard position by Portland’s Lionel Hollins and Herm Gilliam.

Hollins scored 31 points and Gilliam, who came off the bench, added 24. Hollins had 22 in the first half as Portland took a 54-51 lead. Gilliam had 14 in the final quarter, including the basket that gave the Trail Blazers the lead for good, at 98-97, with 1:03 left.

Hollins and Gilliam, along with rookie starter Johnny Davis, who had 20 points Friday, were simply too fast for the Laker guards, Don Chaney and rookie Earl Tatum from Marquette.

Hollins’ 8 steals and the Lakers’ 17 other turnovers were the main differences in a game that Coach Jerry West said that his team should have won “because we outplayed them physically in every way.”

Playground Shots

But in the fourth quarter, the Lakers could not keep Gilliam under control as he brought Portland back from a seven point deficit with an assortment of playground shots. He threw in high arching fadeaway jump shots from 20 feet, and alley-oop hook, and finally a hanging, driving layup that gave Portland the lead for good, 98-87.

Los Angeles, which had led most of the game, had several chances to win after Gilliam’s layup. One of those chances was a missed 15 footer by Tatum, who had 32 points Friday, but was 4 for 15 Sunday, finishing with 10 points.

After Hollins had made one of two free throws for a two point lead, the Lakers got the ball back for a last shot and a chance to tie. The inbounds pass went to Abdul-Jabbar, but Walton kept him far from the basket and his shot with five seconds left missed, with the rebound going out of bounds as time expired.

Not Optimistic

West, the former Lakers’ star, mused about his team’s chances. “When I was a player, we lost the first two games against Golden State at home once and then won the next four in a row. But that team had a lot more talent than this one does.”

Game 3

Walton Blazes Trail To Power

Portland, Ore. (AP) — Bill Walton, the player most responsible for the arrival of the Portland Trail Blazers as a National Basketball Association power, has pushed his team to the brink of a four-game playoff sweep of the Los Angeles Lakers.

With nine minutes left in the third game of their best-of-seven semifinal series last night, the Blazers trailed by four points and were in desperate need of some offensive help. So Walton went on a rampage.

He sank seven straight baskets in the next six minutes, the Blazers had a nine-point lead and held on for a 102-97 victory.

Friday night at Portland, the Blazers, in the playoffs for the first time in history, try and complete the sweep and advance to the championship round.

“I just got hot,” Walton said after the game. “The nature of the team is whoever gets hot is supposed to take it to the hoop.”

Lakers’ Coach Jerry West said Walton’s scoring outburst came when Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was forced to help out on defense.

“Bill Walton is the second-best center in the league, but he is not Kareem,” West said. “There were three or four baskets where Kareem stepped out to block a shot and Walton just rolled in for the rebound.”

“I thought Bill took the challenge tonight and made some tremendous offensive plays,” said Portland Coach Jack Ramsay.

“Bill said at halftime he’d have to go to the basket more,” Ramsay said. “He just took it. When he gets that look in his face, he’s there.”

Cazzie Russell’s 10-foot jumper with 9½ minutes remaining gave the Lakers an 81-77 lead. Then Walton scored, cutting the gap to two points.

The Lakers responded with a four-on-one fast break, but Portland’s Bob Gross blocked rookie Tom Abernethy’s layup attempt. Then Walton stuffed a rebound and the score was tied 81-81 with just under eight minutes to go.

Gross’ rebound basket gave Portland the lead, then Walton hit two more shots, making it 87-81.

Abdul-Jabbar stuffed a shot, cutting the margin to four points, but Walton responded with another rebound basket, a left-handed hook and a 10-foot right-handed hook, giving Portland a 93-84 lead with 3:50 remaining.

Twice Los Angeles cut the lead to three points, but free throws lifted the Blazers out of trouble.

But Abdul-Jabbar, who has averaged 36.7 points per game in the playoffs, took just four shots in the first half and 12 during the entire game.

“They’re collapsing three guys sometimes,” Abdul-Jabbar said. “I’ve got to pass to make them get off.”

“He wasn’t looking to shoot,” Walton said of his rival center. “It appeared he was waiting to draw the double-team and then was looking for the pass.”

The Lakers are [in] trouble, but West said his team has outplayed the Blazers the last two games, only to come out on the losing end.

“Friday night we’ll just go out and play like we did tonight,” West said. “Tough.”

Game 4

Portland sweeps Lakers, 105-101

PORTLAND, Ore. — The Portland TrailBlazers, after six frustrating years, finally have arrived in the National Basketball Association.

The Blazers beat Los Angeles 105-101 Friday night to sweep the Lakers in four games to win the Western Conference title and race into the NBA finals against either Philadelphia or Houston.

Los Angeles Laker coach Jerry West doesn’t think it was a fluke, either.

“Portland is a great team,” said West. “It has as fine personnel as there is in basketball. There is great depth in the backcourt. It is a team that is going to be good for a long time.”

That’s because of youth. Portland averages but three years of pro experience in the lineup.

Bill Walton is a third-year man, but this is the first year in three that he’s stayed healthy most of the season.”

“I don’t think anyone ever has played Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in a series better than Bill Walton did,” said Portland coach Jack Ramsay. “Bill played with great dedication against Kareem, and we couldn’t have won without that.

In the years to come it surely will be remembered as the Mountain Man Jam or the V (for Vegetarian) Bomb or the Sky-Is-Falling-Redbeard-Autographed-Screamer. Something like that. But before the explosive dunk shot that Bill Walton put in Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's face—the one he threw right down there in the famous goggles—before that moment becomes blown out of proportion, let us consider what it was not.

It was not a signal that a new president of the UCLA Alumni Pivotmen's Association had been chosen. It was not a sign of quick and absolute victory in this new mano a mano duel. Possibly it wasn't even the decisive play in the Portland Trail Blazers' stunning 4-love defeat of the Los Angeles Lakers in the NBA Western Conference championship. What the shot did was proclaim to the world that Bill Walton has finally arrived on the same plateau as Abdul-Jabbar; that his classically balanced passing and rebounding, his quick shots and outlet bullets, his savage defense and intelligent command of all phases of the game are more than enough to match his adversary's greater offensive powers. The play showed that pro basketball has a brand-new Russell-Chamberlain rivalry to savor.

The manner in which wave upon wave of Trail Blazers galloped past the Lakers—as if, L.A. Coach Jerry West observed, "a shoemaker had nailed us to the floor"—made any extended comparisons of play in the middle invalid. But Walton's singular brilliance in the series obviously dictated that the Lakers, who somehow won 53 games during the regular season, were not about to play that one on five game of theirs all the way to the NBA championship.

Both centers went to great, silent lengths to avoid talking about each other. Walton did say, "It's no big deal.... I'm excited. As Kareem gets older, he gets smarter. Physically he's in his prime. I think he's playing the best of his life."

And Abdul-Jabbar said, "Walton believes in his talent. He tests his skill rather than using muscle to hang on me. It's a challenge to play against a guy this good, on a level above what I go through most nights. It's not so much even winning. It's expressing yourself."

After the Blazers had shocked the Lakers by winning the first two games of the series at the occasionally Fabulous Forum in L.A., the situation in Portland was this: 9:10 left in Game Three, Los Angeles ahead 81-77. Frustrated because his 70 points in the two L.A. defeats had been to no avail, Abdul-Jabbar had turned passer and defender. As a result, Walton had been held to eight points. But in the next 5:18, his eyes glazed and raging as if somebody had spiked his kumquat juice with kerosene, the Mountain Man scored seven baskets. He banked, he tipped. He soared, he stuffed. He hooked right, he hooked left. After this reign of terror had subsided, Portland had the lead, 93-84, and eventually the game, 102-97.

In the middle of all of this came the play which approximately 78 billion Oregonians and their grandchildren will swear they witnessed long after Walton's red beard is down to his toes. Maurice Lucas started it by missing a jump shot, which he rebounded and threw out to Walton in the foul circle. Walton paused, roared down the lane and flung himself into the air. Abdul-Jabbar went up to meet him somewhere north of reality, where few mortals dare to tread.

Boom! A mountain symphony. Incredibly, all of us survived.

After the smoke had cleared, there was Walton waving his fist at Lucas and flashing that peculiar manic grin. There was Abdul-Jabbar looking around at the scoreboard, the referee, the bench. Anywhere for some help. And everywhere but at Walton.

"I wish I had been on the bench, not in the game," said Portland's Herm Gilliam of the moment. "I wanted to jump up, do spin-arounds, do handstands. Bill got that look that says he's handling the case. That look is scary."

In all fairness to Abdul-Jabbar, he had spent the better part of three games—and would spend yet one more—exhausting himself by bounding up and down and all over the court attempting to deflect the rafter heaves of Lucas as well as those of greyhounds Lionel Hollins and Johnny Davis, who had slithered through or simply zipped around the pitiful Laker backcourt defenders. When Abdul-Jabbar ran down, Portland would counter his weakened offensive efforts by placing Walton in front of him, Lucas behind him and two or three or 15 other Blazers swarming around him on all sides.

On his own, Walton forced Abdul-Jabbar to set up three or four feet farther out than he likes. He also overplayed the dreaded sky hook from the left so well that Kareem made only about a half dozen hooks in the lane—his bread and butter—during the whole series.

"I don't think anybody has ever played Kareem as well as Bill Walton," Portland Coach Jack Ramsay said. "Within a team defense," he quickly added. "With a little help from his friends," he meant.

It is not demeaning the Portland sweep—if you are scoring, the scores were 121-109, 99-97, 102-97, 105-101—to mention that the situation might have been different had Los Angeles come equipped with a healthy Kermit Washington, the powerful forward who missed the entire playoffs, and Lucius Allen. In the series Lucas destroyed Laker Don Ford in points (92-41) and rebounds (47-11) while the Blazer backcourt took advantage of Allen's immobility (because of a dislocated toe he played sparingly in only the last two games) to run wind sprints past the Laker guards.

As his team's marvelous season dwindled down to its tragic climax, West became touchy any time the Abdul-Jabbar/Walton comparison was brought up. "Excluding the big guys, would you want our 11 or their 11?" West demanded. "I have to feel sorry for Kareem. It's a terrible burden we put on him."

Which is to say that Abdul-Jabbar received nowhere near the support Walton enjoyed. Jazzy Cazzie Russell shot a bluesy 24 for 62, or 39%. After scoring 32 points in the opener, swingman Earl Tatum died with 23 in the next three games, including a new record for Pacific Coast airballs. And defensive "stopper" Don Chaney seemed to stop himself, frequently by looking bewildered, as if he wished somebody would please tell him which way Hollins and Davis went and when they were coming back.

The quicksilver Davis, a rookie filling in for the injured Dave Twardzik, combined with Hollins for 45 points in Game One and 39 in Game Four. In Game Two the veteran Gilliam (known to his mates as Trickster) hurled in some unlikely grenades, among which was one outrageous, off-balance, high-kicking bank shot that barely made it over Abdul-Jabbar's fingertips to win the game. "Give 'em some tricks, Trickster," his teammates kept yelling.

Though Abdul-Jabbar outshone Walton statistically—121-77 in points, 64-59 in rebounds, 15-9 in blocked shots as well as 61% to 50% shooting—Walton seemed to control every key rebound, throw every smart pass and convert every big play his team needed. His 23 assists befitted a center who is already a legend as a passer.

In Game One Walton outscored his rival 9-2 in the first quarter and outplayed him in the first half when Portland rushed to a 61-43 lead that buried the Lakers.

In Game Two, Abdul-Jabbar scored 40 points to Walton's 14, but each had 17 rebounds and Walton had the biggest of those after he had forced Abdul-Jabbar's tying-basket attempt in the final five seconds to be a fallaway moonball jumper rather than a sky hook.

In Game Three, Walton's five minutes of unrestrained havoc may soon be made into a major motion picture starring Bruce Jenner. The next day Abdul-Jabbar said, "I know Bill is enjoying this. It's not Amsterdam Avenue back on the playgrounds, but if he jams a couple I got to get the baskets back, so I dunk. I like the way the Blazers play. They should be national champs."

In Game Four last Friday night some brutal pounding inside resulted in Walton forcing Abdul-Jabbar to the bench with his fourth and fifth fouls late in the third quarter. Los Angeles was ahead by three points when Kareem had to sit down. By the time he returned, Portland was ahead by six. The series was over.

Though Abdul-Jabbar rallied the Lakers to within two points while batting away everything the Blazers challenged him with inside, Portland won the final game the way it had won the others—by doing the important little things that quick people get away with against slow people.

At the end Walton was not quick enough to get to Abdul-Jabbar as the Laker center rushed from the floor through the howling mob. The two combatants had sought each other out and firmly grasped hands following each game. Now, Walton encountered West instead.

It was Lucas who said, "Jabbar would never give up. He's the most respected player in the league because he never bows his head. Such great inner strength! You may beat his team but you never beat him."

As he embraced West and jabbed the air in the direction of the departing Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Walton understood that better than anybody in Portland.

Afterwards, John Wooden commented on both of his former centers. Of Kareem, he said:

“Kareem tends to get down at times,” he said. “And when he’s down he doesn’t play as well. This year, he played much better than last year. I think that’s a credit to Jerry (Laker Coach Jerry West). For some reason, Kareem was more motivated this season.”

Of Walton, he said:

Physically, he doesn’t have any real weaknesses. He comes closer to making the most of his abilities than Kareem, although Kareem has more physical talent.

1977 NBA Finals

Prior to the NBA Finals, Philadelphia coach Gene Shue said:

“Walton is a major problem,” said Shue. “He’s one of those dominating centers and he has no apparent weaknesses.

“He’s just an exceptional basketball player. He’s very unselfish. He’s an excellent rebounder and passer and plays great offense when he has to.”

Jack Ramsey’s Blazers also have other good talent in their starting five, said Shue.

“In addition to their talent, they have great quickness,” assessed Shue. “That’s what we have to contend with. They win their games on defense. They’re very aggressive. They win their games by pressing.

“There just isn’t any team in the league like this team,” he said of Portland. “They gear their offense to their defense. They play fast break basketball.

“This has given us a problem over the year, that style,” he said.

Center
Caldwell Jones and Darryl Dawkins vs. Bill Walton — With Walton healthy, Portland had the best winning percentage in the NBA in the regular season and won 10 of 13 playoff games. Offensively he looks to pass rather than shoot and is as good as any center in the game at firing outlet passes to set up the fast break and finding cutters driving the lane for layups. He can also score when needed.

Jones is not much of a scoring threat which will permit Walton to slough off and clog the middle. Jones is in the lineup to play defense and block shots. When the Sixers want some punch, baby bull Dawkins comes in — 6-feet-11½, 265 pounds of raw power, probably the most physical player in the game. But Dawkins has yet to learn how to harness his awesome strength to best advantage. He can come off the bench one night and turn a game around, or he can commit untimely fouls and costly turnovers.

Against either opponent Walton’s versatility and basketball sense gives Portland a clear edge.

Philadelphia won the first two games, but then Portland came back to win the next two to tie the series.

PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) — After dropping the first two games in their National Basketball Association championship series against the Philadelphia 76ers, the Portland Trail Blazers were in desperate need of a psychological life.

Maurice Lucas provided one even before the tipoff in Sunday’s third game. Lucas, a 6-foot-9 forward, had brawled with Philadelphia’s 6-foot-11 Darryl Dawkins, in last Thursday’s 107-89 victory by the 76ers.

Lucas wiped out those bitter memories by conspicuously shaking hands with the 20-year-old Dawkins when Portland’s starting lineup was introduced prior to the contest.

Two hours later, Lucas had scored 25 points in leading the Blazers to a 129-107 rout that diminished to 2-1 the Philadelphia edge in the best-of-seven series.

Game Four will be played here Tuesday night at 9 p.m., EDT.

“It wasn’t planned, it was just something that happened,” the soft-voiced Lucas said of the game-opening handshake.

“People are trying to make Dawkins out to be this big gorilla. But he’s a very nice person.”

The Blazers bolted to an 18-point lead late in the first quarter. Then Julius Erving and Doug Collins took control and the 76ers sliced the margin to 56-53 with 1:23 left in the first half.

But Lucas hit two quick baskets and Lionel Hollins sank two free throws to give the Western Conference champions a 60-53 halftime edge.

Philadelphia stayed close through the third quarter. Then Bill Walton came up with a couple of classic Waltonian plays that doomed the 76ers’ hopes for a four-game sweep.

Portland’s Bob Gross lofted the ball towards the basket and Walton battled Dawkins somewhere above the rim. Walton’s right hand finally tipped the ball through the hoop as his 6-foot-11 frame crashed to the floor.

An instant later, guard Dave Twardzik stole the ball in backcourt and lofted a pass towards the hoop. Walton climbed back on his feet and stuffed the ball through the hoop with both hands, giving the Blazers a 95-87 lead with 9½ minutes to go.

The 76ers never got any closer as the Blazers, principally Gross and reserve Lloyd Neal, turned the game into a rout.”

“The first basket was a set play,” Walton said. “We improvised on the second one. When I got up, all of a sudden Twardzik had the ball and I moved back to the basket.”

“He comes up with big plays like that,” said Portland Coach Jack Ramsay, recalling Walton’s now-famous slam dunk over Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the semifinals.

Gross couldn’t believe the Portland team captain’s first basket.

“I don’t know how he did it. It was a super play,” Gross said.

Walton hit 9 of 15 from the field, scored 20 points, grabbed 18 rebounds, handed out 9 assists, and blocked 4 shots. Gross added 19 points. Rookie guard Johnny Davis scored 18 and Lionel Hollins, despite a 4-for-17 shooting day, added 15 points.

As usual, Erving sizzled. He scored 28 points, including 10 of 11 free throws. Collins was 9-for-13 from the field and scored 21 points.

Portland won Game 4 130-98, their 32-point margin of victory the largest for a Game 4 in NBA history, and “tied for third on the list of most lopsided NBA championship round games. Only the Boston Celtics beat anybody worse, 129-95 over St. Louis in 1961 and 129-96 over Los Angeles in 1965. The other 32-point margin also belonged to the Celtics, 142-110 over the Lakers in 1965” (The Bulletin, May 31, 1977) “Walton played slightly more than half the game, scored 12 points, grabbed 13 rebounds and dished out seven assists” (The Bulletin, May 31, 1977).

THE SWEEP
Portland Ablaze And Heading Home

There was talk of a sweep before the NBA finals began.

There was talk of a sweep after Philadelphia won the first two games in Portland.

And there’s talk of a sweep today. And it’s Portland doing the talking. And the sweeping.

The Trail Blazers are one game away from the NBA championship just six years after expansion brought them into the big time.

They’ll try to wrap it up Sunday (CBS, 3 p.m.,) on their home floor, where they have been virtually unbeatable this year, winning their last 17 in a row and 44 of 50 through the regular season and playoffs. And they’ll have the added support of the vocal legions who have made Blazermania a phenomenon in the Pacific Northwest.

“We expect a war on Sunday,” said the ever-cautious Jack Ramsay. “We will have to play our best. If we do that, we’ll win. Anything less won’t be enough.”

The Blazers produced something less than their best last night but nonetheless moved within one victory of the NBA crown, beating the Philadelphia 76ers 110-104 to take a 3-2 lead in the best-of-seven playoff finals.

It was a strange game that ran in spurts and produced an unlikely hero — Bobby Gross, Portland’s unassuming 6-foor-6 forward who came into the series as “the other guy,” the unknown whose job it would be to try and stop the brilliant Julius Erving of Philadelphia.

Gross helped the Blazers take the lead at the start, contributing eight points, two assists and a steal as Portland jumped out to a 16-9 advantage while Philadelphia was missing 11 of its first 14 shots.

“Bobby Gross gave us that instant offense,” praised teammate Maurice Lucas, who contributed 20 points and 13 rebounds. “He just broke loose and created a spree.”

“We took it to them and got our game going again,” said Gross, who hit on 10 of his 13 shots from the floor against Erving. “We made some steals and we started running. When we do that, we’re tough to beat.”

As for his surprising offensive production, Gross, a second-year man from Long Beach State, said, “I was really surprised when he (Erving) backed off on me so much and gave me room. If I have the open shot, I’ll take it. I can hit it.”

Gross and Lucas were just two of the more noticeable heroes on the Blazers, who once against used their balance and team game to offset a magnificent solo effort by Erving, who had 37 points.

“Our over-all defense won the game,” said Ramsay. “That gave us our fast break. And our guards played especially well.”

Hollins had 14 points and Johnny Davis 11 points and eight assists, while Dave Twardzik came off the bench to tally 16.

And then there was Bill Walton, once again the dominating presence in the middle with 14 points and 24 rebounds, helping Portland to a 59-47 advantage off the boards. He’s averaging 18.2 rebounds for the five games this series. “Just having Bill there underneath keeps them away from the basket,” observed an appreciative Ramsey.

“When they’re in control, they’re in complete control,” added George McGinnis, who showed signs of busting out of his slump early in the third period, then was benched by Gene Shue after picking up his fourth personal foul. “They force errors, make you make the bad pass.”

Guards Doug Collins and Henry Bibby scored 23 and 16 points respectively, but Erving was the Sixers’ only effective player up front until Shue discovered Joe Bryant.

Erving, however, was not about to give up.

“We’ve got a bunch of crazy guys on this team,” said Dr. J.

“As unpredictable as we are, don’t count us out. Maybe we’ll come up with a surprise on Sunday. We shall see.”

“Bill (Walton) was fantastic,” said Portland coach Jack Ramsay. “He’s a great force inside. He kept Philadelphia out. The perimeter shots were under pressure” (Harlan Daily Enterprise, Jun 5, 1977).

Walton brilliant again
Portland Blazers best

PORTLAND (AP) – The Portland Trail Blazers completed their stunning rise to the top of the pro basketball world Sunday by defeating the Philadelphia 76ers 109-107 behind another brilliant all-around performance by center Bill Walton.

It was the culmination of a remarkable season for the Blazers, born of expansion, nurtured through six losing years marked by bickering and frustration and never before in the playoffs.

Portland, under the masterful direction of Coach Jack Ramsay, used teamwork, poise, a pressure defense and a disciplined attack to overcome the multi-talented 76ers four games to two in the best-of-seven National Basketball Association championship series.

Walton, who scored and rebounded in double figures in every game of the series, had 20 points, 23 rebounds, 7 assists and 8 blocked shots in Sunday’s finale. He was named the Most Valuable Player of the championship series.

Bob Gross added 24 points and Lionel Hollins 20 for the Blazers to offset another remarkable effort by Philadelphia’s Julius Erving, the game’s high scorer with 40 points.

The real Bill Walton

NEW YORK — Early in Bill Walton’s second season with the Portland Trail Blazers, he was asked to assess his career that had been hounded by injuries.

“When I’m healthy,” he said, “I play real good, I think.” “Then,” the 6 foot 11-inch center was asked, “nobody has see the real Bill Walton yet.”

“I don’t think so.”

But everybody has seen the real Bill Walton now.

Healthy virtually throughout his third season and his first playoffs, the real Bill Walton has stood up and the other Trail Blazers have stood up with him as the National Basketball Association champions. No more nasty remarks about his vegetarian diet, please; his teammate, Maurice Lucas, also is a vegetarian.

For the traditionalists, at least Bill Walton sheared his long red beard and his ponytail to more conservative lengths. And he wasn’t talking about Patty Hearst any more. He didn’t have time. He was too busy waving his arms and directing the offense or rebounding on defense during the Trail Blazers’ conquest of the Philadelphia 76ers in six games. Bill Walton was everything he used to be at the University of California, Los Angeles, when John Wooden was his coach. Eddie Donovan, the New York Knicks’ general manager, has a theory as to why.

“I think Jack Ramsey reached Walton,” says Eddie Donovan. “Of all the coaches in our league, Jack Ramsey is the closest to being the John Wooden type — scholarly, available. I think Walton responded to that.”

Bill Walton surely did respond to Jack Ramsey, but so did his teammates. Jack Ramsey, somewhat inconspicuous as a coach with both the 76ers and the Buffalo Braves before being hired by the Trail Blazers a year ago, was talking about his team Monday over the telephone from the club offices in Portland.

“They’re talented,” the coach said, “and they’re willing to play together.”

Willing to play together — that, remember, is what the Knicks were not willing to do in the season that ended two months ago. But being willing to play together is what basketball is all about.

“The coach can say what he wants,” Jack Ramsey said, “but the players have to respond.”

Bill Walton led that response — as the captain, as the leader, as the center that an NBA championship team invariably needs. Over the last two decades five other centers have been primarily responsible for all but one title team — Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Willis Reed, Dave Cowens and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. The only exception was the Golden State Warriors of two years ago with Clifford Ray, a useful but not dominant center.

And in Jack Ramsay’s opinion, Bill Walton is “more skilled in all facets of the game” than any of the dominant centers.

“Wilt was a great rebounder, a great shot blocker and he became a better shooter, but he had no range and he was a terrible foul shooter. Russell was the best defensively, a fierce competitor. Kareem is the best offensive player of the three. But to me Bill does all of those things well. Reed and Cowens were different types. Bill is a great, great player. I never had an outstanding center before.” But as the Buffalo coach, Jack Ramsay had Bob McAdoo, now the Knicks’ center.

“I didn’t consider Bob McAdoo as center. He’s a forward playing center. He’s not equipped to do what a center has to do what I want a center to do. Like the way Bill passes. That might be his strongest forte.”

Bill Walton also responded to the aura of the NBA championship series, basketball’s showcase event.

“This was better even than at UCLA,” the center said, “because this was against the best players in the world.”

PORTLAND, Ore (UPI) — Philadelphia Coach Gene Shue gave a quick congratulations to Portland Coach Jack Ramsey, then went into seclusion to mask his disappointment at losing the NBA championship to the Portland Trail Blazers.

But, when he came out of that seclusion, he spoke like a gentleman and with candor.

“I went in to congratulate Jack,” he said. “You know, if Bill Walton had been healthy the whole season, there is no doubt that the Portland Trail Blazers would have the best regular season record in the NBA.”

Asked about the championship matchup of Portland’s “classic style team-oriented play” versus his “one-on-one” type of team, and Shue said his own philosophy of basketball “always has been in favor of the classic style, the team that passes, the team that hits the open man. I learned that in college, and as a pro player.

“But you know, in the pros, you take what you can get. You can’t say I’ll take this guy or that guy. The object of the game is to win. I feel very satisfied that we reached our objective of the championship finals.

“I have a group of very strong-willed individual players. But I also wish I had Bill Walton.”

“He doesn’t have any weaknesses,” said Philadelphia coach Gene Shue. “You can’t shut him off. He can score when he has to but he is above all else a team player. He makes the players around him so much better” (The Spokesman Review, Jun 6, 1977)


On Walton's '77:

“Since he retired in 1969, only one NBA center has come even remotely close to achieving [Bill] Russell’s total command of a basketball game. That was Bill Walton, on the 1977 Portland Trail Blazers, and Walton’s ensuing injuries turned that bit of magic into a sad, fleeting memory.”

“He had been, in one brief, scintillating season, perhaps the greatest center who ever played the game. Better, that year, than Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He could score, defend, pass, and run. If you had to pick a 12-man team to defend the planet, and could have any center, the one who played in Bill Walton’s body in the 1976-77 season would be a practically irrefutable choice.”

[SDChargers#1]

A few things that I think people like to ignore about '77 Walton.

1) Played only 65 games (which sadly is his career high as a starter)

2) He only played 35 mpg. Also a career high. Walton should not get any kind of bonus by comparing per 36 numbers. His only proof that he could even play more than that was in the playoffs this year, where his raw numbers stayed essentially the same.

3) He team played at a very high pace compared to guys like Kobe / Wade / T-Mac (who should be coming up soon). Which makes his general stats even more pedestrian.

4) He got severely outplayed by Kareem in the playoffs yet his team won anyway (swept). Clearly, the team was not fully dependent on him, and very good in its own right.

here's how good the Blazers were (Simmons on Walton):

For eleven months from March 29, 1977 to March 1, 1978, including the '77 playoffs, Portland finished 70-15 during an especially competitive era. And everything--everything--ran through Walton. Maybe some centers were better in specific areas, but none was the best passer, rebounder, shot blocker, outlet passer, defensive anchor, crunch-time scorer, emotional leader and undisputed "guy we revolve our offense around" for their team at the same time.

does that really look like a 49W to you ? Blazers were epically good. simple eye test totally confirms it.

Unfortunately, we aren't comparing the end of the '77 season and most of '78 season Walton to everyone else. We only get to choose one year.

I honestly think with Walton, people are cherry picking really hard on their argument. The only thing they really have is Elgee's study which shows Walton with incredible impact. Which btw, though I have crazy respect for Elgee, I have always wondered how accurate these studies are. I know all the games are not available, and I doubt Elgee has watched them all (who knows I could be wrong). How can we be so sure of those impact stats when our data is years old and incomplete?

And even then, it is still just one measurement. Pretty much every other indicator shows Walton below others who haven't been mentioned. His stats (even advanced) are well below guys like Kobe / Wade / Dr. J / Moses / Oscar / West, and these are guys who can actually play a full season and play near 40 mpg. Something Walton has proven he was unable to do.

I can't in my right mind vote for Walton. It is IMO the most overrated Peak ever.

[ardee]

A few things that I think people like to ignore about '77 Walton.

1) Played only 65 games (which sadly is his career high as a starter)

2) He only played 35 mpg. Also a career high. Walton should not get any kind of bonus by comparing per 36 numbers. His only proof that he could even play more than that was in the playoffs this year, where his raw numbers stayed essentially the same.

3) He team played at a very high pace compared to guys like Kobe / Wade / T-Mac (who should be coming up soon). Which makes his general stats even more pedestrian.

4) He got severely outplayed by Kareem in the playoffs yet his team won anyway (swept). Clearly, the team was not fully dependent on him, and very good in its own right.

here's how good the Blazers were (Simmons on Walton):

For eleven months from March 29, 1977 to March 1, 1978, including the '77 playoffs, Portland finished 70-15 during an especially competitive era. And everything--everything--ran through Walton. Maybe some centers were better in specific areas, but none was the best passer, rebounder, shot blocker, outlet passer, defensive anchor, crunch-time scorer, emotional leader and undisputed "guy we revolve our offense around" for their team at the same time.

does that really look like a 49W to you ? Blazers were epically good. simple eye test totally confirms it.

Unfortunately, we aren't comparing the end of the '77 season and most of '78 season Walton to everyone else. We only get to choose one year.

I honestly think with Walton, people are cherry picking really hard on their argument. The only thing they really have is Elgee's study which shows Walton with incredible impact. Which btw, though I have crazy respect for Elgee, I have always wondered how accurate these studies are. I know all the games are not available, and I doubt Elgee has watched them all (who knows I could be wrong). How can we be so sure of those impact stats when our data is years old and incomplete?

And even then, it is still just one measurement. Pretty much every other indicator shows Walton below others who haven't been mentioned. His stats (even advanced) are well below guys like Kobe / Wade / Dr. J / Moses / Oscar / West, and these are guys who can actually play a full season and play near 40 mpg. Something Walton has proven he was unable to do.

I can't in my right mind vote for Walton. It is IMO the most overrated Peak ever.

The entire argument you made was based on the words I underlined. If you're continually rattling on about how Walton had 'bad stats' and ignoring the arguments others have provided, how do you expect to grasp this
concept?

The Walton-Russell comparison has been made to death, but when I rewatched his game 6 of the Finals (20-23-8-7, how's that for stats, since you seem to love that?), they really seem like the same player at times.

Walton, quite simply, was capable of controlling an opponent's scoring through intimidation and shot-blocking like no one except Russell and 70s Chamberlain. I highly recommend you take the time to watch that Philly series. There was one quarter when he seemed to be able to block or alter nearly every shot that the Sixers threw up. It was like the defensive equivalent of MJ or Kobe hitting 5-6 jumpers in a row and scoring 20 in the quarter.

Then, he was one of the most gifted high post passers we have ever seen. The entire Blazer offense revolved around him either securing a rebound and throwing outlets, or one of his team-mates dumping the ball into him, then him using his body as a screen as they cut to the basket and he unerringly found them. It's not as if he was playing with some ridiculously good players. Mo Lucas and Lionel Hollins were decent at best and neither had a revevant NBA moment after Walton left them.

He was one of the top two rebounders in the league along with Jabbar. H was an efficient scorer who could get you buckets at any time you needed him to. It is, quite simply, hard to pick a flaw in his game. In layman's terms, imagine the defense and passing of Bill Russell or Kevin Garnett molded with the offense of Pau Gasol. Do you think this player would make a God-like impact? Yes, I would think so.

[ardee]

77-78: Walton's impact versus Kareem's impact.

Sort of a crude on/off type of measure, but when players miss large chunks of time like Walton and Kareem (in 78) it gives us a fairly interesting interesting picture of their value. Obviously there are potential confounds like other injuries, strategy changes, schedule, etc. This is raw data so pace isn't adjusted for either. Nonetheless, thought this data was pretty darn interesting from this period:

Portland 1977:

Code: Select all

             Record    PPG      Opp PPG      Diff     Opp SRS    %Road Games
With Walton   43-21    113.4    105.1       +8.3
W/O Walton    6-12     105.7    110.0       -4.3       0.26      61%
Total Difference                            +12.6


Los Angeles 78:

Code: Select all

             Record    PPG      Opp PPG      Diff     Opp SRS    %Road Games
With Kareem   37-24    111.9    107.8       +4.1
W/O Kareem    8-13     105.6    107.2       -1.6       0.03      48%
Total Difference                            +5.7


Walton's game on 12/30 and Kareem's season opener counted as "missed" games because they both played only a few minutes. Of course, there's more Walton data, as he went on to miss a comparable chunk of time in 1978 as well.

Portland 1978:

Code: Select all

             Record    PPG      Opp PPG      Diff     Opp SRS    %Road Games
With Walton   48-10    110.4    100.4       +10.0
W/O Walton    10-14     101.0    104.3       -3.3      -0.07     58%
Total Difference                            +13.3


Now, one major difference between 77 and 78 in Portland was Lloyd Neal's play off the bench. Praised by commentators and writers, he actually led the 78 team in pts/36, posted a nice .179 WS/48 line, and had 31 points filling in for Walton in the first game he missed (a 111-106 win at Detroit). And still the profound difference is still there without Walton.

If we combine the two seasons and pro-rate the records to 82-games:

Code: Select all

             Record    PPG      Opp PPG      Diff     Opp SRS   %Road Games
With Walton   61-21    112.0    102.9       +9.1
W/O Walton    31-51    103.0    106.7       -3.7       0.07     60%
Total Difference                            +12.6
         
With Kareem   52-30    111.9    107.8       +4.1
W/O Kareem    31-51    105.6    107.2       -1.6       0.03     48%
Total Difference                            +5.7



Im looking at this thread and regret not being here at the time... this is such an amazing post elgee.

what makes me extremely impressed by Walton is how poor Blazers played without him.

year - SRS
73 - -5.68
74 - -4.30
75 - 0.28 (Walton 35 games)
76 - -1.12 (51 games)
77 - 5.39 (65 games)
78 - 5.92 (58 games)
79 - 1.12 (missed season)
80 - -0.87 (14 games injured)

his 2nd season was a down year, low shotblocking numbers, inefficient, probably he was dealing with injured as usual.

but aside from that ? comes to garbage team in 75 and makes them competitive playing 35 games ? then in 77 he's finally healthy and Portland's automatically 5.4 SRS (best in the league) ? and then MVP year with 5.9 SRS ? damn.

but now with Elgee's post I can fully understand why he was considered as equivalent to prime Kareem. maybe he didn't post great statline and wasn't a really good iso scorer, but he did all the little things. deflections, screens, outlet passing, play calling, you name it.

let's put it in some perspective. 77 Blazers with healthy Walton were ~8 SRS team. that's pretty much all time dominant... and they did that in a league where everyone was coasting around .500, which makes it even more impressive. then they went to the playoffs and won with by margin of victory of +4.4. that's while playing against top3 teams in the league: Issel-Bobby Jones-Thompson Nuggets, Kareem's Lakers and all time talented Sixers with Dr J, McGinnis, Doug Collins, Dawkins etc. Blazers had a playoff record 14-5. damn.

78 Blazers were 10 SRS team with healthy Walton. basically top3 all time along with Bucks 71 and Bulls 96. those two seasons combined + playoffs, Blazers with healthy Walton were 105-36... and about 9 SRS.

without healthy Walton 77 Blazers were 6-12, 10-14 in 78 RS and 2-4 in the 78 playoffs. combined 18-30 record and -3.5 SRS.

then 79 Blazers (no Walton at all) had 1.1 SRS after they brought Tom Owens (18/9/4/55%) and Mychal Thompson (15/8/2/49%). Walton's impact was GOAT like.

semi healthy Walton (say... half of each RS and full playoffs) would've had a 3-peat easily by 1980. now I know why they say he'd have been a top10 player easily. he really had the potential to be the GOAT. what he did in 77 and 78 was basically taking a mediocre team and making them all timers.

This post from the RPOY thread practically pushed me over the line.

Vote: 1977 Bill Walton

It really makes me feel awful to think we were deprived of such a great, great player. The least we can do in his name in enshrine him here, so no one will forget how much he meant to the game of basketball.

[SDChargers#1]

The entire argument you made was based on the words I underlined. If you're continually rattling on about how Walton had 'bad stats' and ignoring the arguments others have provided, how do you expect to grasp this
concept?

The Walton-Russell comparison has been made to death, but when I rewatched his game 6 of the Finals (20-23-8-7, how's that for stats, since you seem to love that?), they really seem like the same player at times.

Walton, quite simply, was capable of controlling an opponent's scoring through intimidation and shot-blocking like no one except Russell and 70s Chamberlain. I highly recommend you take the time to watch that Philly series. There was one quarter when he seemed to be able to block or alter nearly every shot that the Sixers threw up. It was like the defensive equivalent of MJ or Kobe hitting 5-6 jumpers in a row and scoring 20 in the quarter.

Then, he was one of the most gifted high post passers we have ever seen. The entire Blazer offense revolved around him either securing a rebound and throwing outlets, or one of his team-mates dumping the ball into him, then him using his body as a screen as they cut to the basket and he unerringly found them. It's not as if he was playing with some ridiculously good players. Mo Lucas and Lionel Hollins were decent at best and neither had a revevant NBA moment after Walton left them.

He was one of the top two rebounders in the league along with Jabbar. H was an efficient scorer who could get you buckets at any time you needed him to. It is, quite simply, hard to pick a flaw in his game. In layman's terms, imagine the defense and passing of Bill Russell or Kevin Garnett molded with the offense of Pau Gasol. Do you think this player would make a God-like impact? Yes, I would think so.

1) I wasn't addressing others points, I was stating my own since it was my first post in the #12 thread.

2) Walton is not the scorer Pau was (which is what I assume you meant since you already stated he had Russell / Garnett like passing ability). Not really close. Pau is a super efficient big with range out to 20 feet who can hit his free throws at nearly an 80% clip. Walton was less efficient FG% wise and FT% wise, had less range, and less volume scoring. Walton was not the scorer that Pau is, period.

3) Comparing him to Russell is a big stretch for me. A VERY poor mans Russell. Russell played more games per season, and averaged 44 mpg during his prime. In other word, Russell was impacting the game more, was in the game more, and played more. This is really what people need to focus on a little more. The guy simply wasn't in the game enough, and when he was (the playoffs) his numbers didn't go up.

4) Walton, the guy who supposedly had Bill Russell impact on defense, got man handled by Kareem in those very playoffs yet his team swept them. Clearly it wasn't all Walton.

5) Lucas was a very good player - 5 time NBA All Star (his last appearance was all the way in '83, so your assertion that he didn't do anything without Walton is just blatently false). Lucas accomplished more without Walton than Pau Gasol has without Kobe.

6) As I said before Walton's who argument in this thread has been cherry picked. It is focused on impact stats alone. Which as we all know shouldn't be an be all end all of stats. Once you take out looking at the impact stats, everything else looks rather pedestrian (for the #12 greatest peak of all time). So I can use your first line against you.

The entire argument you made was based on the words 'impact stats'. If you're continually rattling on about how much impact Walton had based on one study and ignoring the arguments other have provided, how to you expect to grasp this concept.

[ElGee]

If others are using different criteria, so be it. But, if you care about odds of winning...

Missing RS games barely matters. I've discussed this in detail -- missing 17 games like Walton did, at this level of impact, will change a team's title odds (based on the lost seeding and HCA) by about 2-3%. If you considered him equal with someone (eg Kareem), this would be a relevant tiebreaker. Missing 17 RS games is not going to change Walton in a comparison to anyone below him. (eg A player with 0.5 points less impact on the game will be about 4% less likely to win a title.)

As for Walton's in/out study, there are two key things to understand:

(1) It's basically the best looking in history
(2) It's strong in roster continuity and sample size

That doesn't mean it's definitive, but if you follow the course of the team, and those games, in great detail, it's a very strong data point. The idea that Lloyd Neal was an incompetent backup center is strange to me, given that he was supplanted from the lineup by Lucas/Walton combo after averaging 16-9 in 1976. He filled in for Walton valiantly in 78, posting 30-point games and at least 2 20-20 games IIRC. His 1978 WS/48 was 7th among centers in a 22 team league (behind Kareem, Lanier, Walton, Issell, Gilmore and Dawkins). People claiming Portland had no backup center might as well claim they can beat Jordan in a game of one-on-one.

Walton's In/Out (controlling for Maurice Lucas in the lineup)

1977 Blazers IN (62g) 8.1 SRS
1977 Blazers OUT (17g) -2.4 SRS

Portland's PS SRS was 8.0 in 19g. (How's that for predictability? ) The next year, with a second-year Johnny Davis and Tom Owens (another big) in for Herm Gilliam, the same team looked like:

1978 Blazers IN (50g) 9.1 SRS
1978 Blazers OUT (18g) -3.0 SRS

I've run over 400 in/out player seasons. Walton's results are at the top pretty much any way you want to slice it (the comment about Mike Conley earlier was incorrect). "SIO" -- which is an attempt to normalize the impact to neutral teams -- or raw change, with Lucas or without Lucas, and certainly for players with sample sizes approaching 20 games missed. Heck, given how similar the teams are, it's not unreasonable to look at this as 112g in and 35g out.

Walton was an all-time, maybe the all-time valuable player, because his diverse skill set is what allowed the role players to excel. (I've seen as many games as are available, which is a limited sample, but I've read 100s of newspaper articles, every SI article and Breaks of the Game):

(1) outlet passing (GOAT level) so they can play fast
(2) GOAT-level help D and rebounding so they can leak out to run for the outlet passes
(3) High-post passing to take advantage of a low-post scorer (Lucas), slashers with speed and outside shooters
(4) Outside shooting, to compliment said low-post player and draw interior defenders out of the paint for the slashers
(5) "The motor," which allowed for Offensive rebounding/rim instincts, to finish plays around the rim bc he still had the energy to get back on D

[bastillon]

Then, he was one of the most gifted high post passers we have ever seen. The entire Blazer offense revolved around him either securing a rebound and throwing outlets, or one of his team-mates dumping the ball into him, then him using his body as a screen as they cut to the basket and he unerringly found them. It's not as if he was playing with some ridiculously good players. Mo Lucas and Lionel Hollins were decent at best and neither had a revevant NBA moment after Walton left them.

watching Lakers vs Blazers series, Mo Lucas and Hollins thoroughly dominated their counterparts on both ends of the court. there was a moment when Hollins made 3 steals in a row when Kareem was on the bench. I think Walton's passing is vastly overrated. don't get me wrong - he was an excellent passer but his quarterbacking (playcalling) and screen setting was much more important offensively than his passing. he made some very risky passes that often led to turnovers. but that coach-on-the-floor stuff was absolutely brilliant. Blazers never seemed to get out of rhytm and just executed. it wasn't the case with Walton on the bench. they started taking illadvised shots etc.

[bastillon]

Portland's PS SRS was 8.0 in 19g. (How's that for predictability? )

have you considered changes in the postseason for Blazers opponents ?

Bulls weren't the same team they were all season - they started very poorly as Gilmore struggled to adjust to the NBA, but they finished the season 20-4 and almost beat Walton's Blazers in the first round. I'd be very curious about that team, particularly because they collapsed defensively and became a great offensive team just next year. it was also Gilmore's peak year in the NBA and he might enter the discussion at some point in the future.

Lakers were obviously suffering from injuries. they were nowhere near their RS value because they lost Washington and Allen. but then again, Kareem started beasting in the PS and miraculously they beat that stacked Warriors team (Jerry West said they were better than in the 2 previous years, quick reminder: Warriors were '75 NBA champs and #1 record in '76). how strong do you think they were when they were facing the Blazers ?

Sixers were different as well. they had some injury issues in the RS (Collins missed a lot of games for example). how strong do you think they were when they were at their best ?

I don't know about Nuggets. either way, these are important factors to consider here analysing those Blazers in the postseason.

could you post your SRS breakdown series by series ? I have a feeling Blazers underperformed vs Gilmore and Kareem because Walton's impact was smaller in those games.

[ElGee]

v Chicago 5.9 (3g)
v Den 6.6 (6g)
v LA 8.4 (4g)
v Phi 10.1 (6g)

I'll add some O/Drtgs in a sec if you want

[lorak]

77-78: Walton's impact versus Kareem's impact.

Sort of a crude on/off type of measure, but when players miss large chunks of time like Walton and Kareem (in 78) it gives us a fairly interesting interesting picture of their value. Obviously there are potential confounds like other injuries, strategy changes, schedule, etc. This is raw data so pace isn't adjusted for either. Nonetheless, thought this data was pretty darn interesting from this period:

Portland 1977:

Code: Select all

             Record    PPG      Opp PPG      Diff     Opp SRS    %Road Games
With Walton   43-21    113.4    105.1       +8.3
W/O Walton    6-12     105.7    110.0       -4.3       0.26      61%
Total Difference                            +12.6


Los Angeles 78:

Code: Select all

             Record    PPG      Opp PPG      Diff     Opp SRS    %Road Games
With Kareem   37-24    111.9    107.8       +4.1
W/O Kareem    8-13     105.6    107.2       -1.6       0.03      48%
Total Difference                            +5.7


Walton's game on 12/30 and Kareem's season opener counted as "missed" games because they both played only a few minutes. Of course, there's more Walton data, as he went on to miss a comparable chunk of time in 1978 as well.

Portland 1978:

Code: Select all

             Record    PPG      Opp PPG      Diff     Opp SRS    %Road Games
With Walton   48-10    110.4    100.4       +10.0
W/O Walton    10-14     101.0    104.3       -3.3      -0.07     58%
Total Difference                            +13.3


Now, one major difference between 77 and 78 in Portland was Lloyd Neal's play off the bench. Praised by commentators and writers, he actually led the 78 team in pts/36, posted a nice .179 WS/48 line, and had 31 points filling in for Walton in the first game he missed (a 111-106 win at Detroit). And still the profound difference is still there without Walton.

If we combine the two seasons and pro-rate the records to 82-games:

Code: Select all

             Record    PPG      Opp PPG      Diff     Opp SRS   %Road Games
With Walton   61-21    112.0    102.9       +9.1
W/O Walton    31-51    103.0    106.7       -3.7       0.07     60%
Total Difference                            +12.6
         
With Kareem   52-30    111.9    107.8       +4.1
W/O Kareem    31-51    105.6    107.2       -1.6       0.03     48%
Total Difference                            +5.7



So is UBF right when he says Walton is overrated as defender?

[lorak]

(2) GOAT-level help D

Could you elaborate on that? Because your in/out data shows GOAT level offensive impact, but much lower on defense.

[ElGee]

Well, if you watch him play, no, it doesn't seem right. If you look at this defensive box score stats, no it doesn't seem right. Then we can see what kind of team he was on.

Walton's defense 1977 and 1978 Blazers

*If you're thinking, Portland's defense in 77 was only -1.5 and in 78 -3.7, understand that Walton was injured for 25% of the games. In 1977, assuming a constant pace (highly unlikely), the Blazers DRtg would have been -2.2 w Walton. There is extensive discussion about how much faster they would play with Walton, but let's still assume they were behind the fastest teams and played at a 110 pace (up only slightly from 108 average) with Walton. That would make their DRtg -4.0 in 77 w/Walton.

In 1978, as we'd guess, the results would be even more pronounced. Portland would have been -4.5 with Walton in the lineup if we assume constant pace. Again, this is highly unlikely. Simply making the pace league average w Walton would change the defense w him in the lineup to -6.8.

For reference Portland's 1977 PS DRtg was -5.4 in 19 games. Their 1978 PS DRtg, without Walton, was +2.3 in 6 games to Seattle.

Bastillon asked for series by series breakdown in 1977 PS:
v Chi (3g) 99.4 ORtg 93.6 DRtg (-4.7)
v Den (6g) 99.0 ORtg 97.5 DRtg (-3.2)
v LAL (4g) 101.9 ORtg 96.4 DRtg (-5.0)
v Phi (6g) 100.2 ORtg 94.5 DRtg (-6.7)

[bastillon]

(2) GOAT-level help D

Could you elaborate on that? Because your in/out data shows GOAT level offensive impact, but much lower on defense.

I second that. can you post O/D splits on your in/out numbers. preferably combined for 77-78 RS + PS since those teams are so similar. that would give us a much better idea where Walton's impact was really coming from. everyone in here seems to agree that his defense was amazing but offensively he was somewhat lacking. was that really the case ?

[bastillon]

Bastillon asked for series by series breakdown in 1977 PS:
v Chi (3g) 99.4 ORtg 93.6 DRtg (-4.7)
v Den (6g) 99.0 ORtg 97.5 DRtg (-3.2)
v LAL (4g) 101.9 ORtg 96.4 DRtg (-5.0)
v Phi (6g) 100.2 ORtg 94.5 DRtg (-6.7)

thanks. the problem is we can't really tell if that's good or bad because those teams were so much different from their RS versions. Chicago struggled at first but picked it up and dominated late in the season (why did that happen ? was it about Gilmore's ABA to NBA transition or something else ? seems more like something bigger was going on). LA had their injuries. Philly had RS injuries (Collins, for the most part), but then McGinnis was injured come playoff time, and struggled the most in the finals. meanwhile Doc didn't seem to be bothered by Portland's defense at all.

that season is so complicated it's not even funny. we'd have to look a lot deeper to really get good grasp of what was going on with injuries and everything.

@reg, any historical evidence on any of this ?

[lorak]

Well, if you watch him play, no, it doesn't seem right. If you look at this defensive box score stats, no it doesn't seem right.

Two things you usually don't use to judge defensive impact.

Then we can see what kind of team he was on.

Walton's defense 1977 and 1978 Blazers

*If you're thinking, Portland's defense in 77 was only -1.5 and in 78 -3.7, understand that Walton was injured for 25% of the games. In 1977, assuming a constant pace (highly unlikely), the Blazers DRtg would have been -2.2 w Walton. There is extensive discussion about how much faster they would play with Walton, but let's still assume they were behind the fastest teams and played at a 110 pace (up only slightly from 108 average) with Walton. That would make their DRtg -4.0 in 77 w/Walton.

In 1978, as we'd guess, the results would be even more pronounced. Portland would have been -4.5 with Walton in the lineup if we assume constant pace. Again, this is highly unlikely. Simply making the pace league average w Walton would change the defense w him in the lineup to -6.8.

For reference Portland's 1977 PS DRtg was -5.4 in 19 games. Their 1978 PS DRtg, without Walton, was +2.3 in 6 games to Seattle.

around -4 or -5 team drtg isn't GOAT level defensive impact.