Becoming An Elite Team

[Awoooga]

As a long suffering Knicks fan there were reasons that I was ready willing and able to waste the 2008 and 2009 seasons to get under the cap for one reason: I wanted the team to become elite again. And I was not talking of building a new Atlanta Hawks or Denver Nuggets esque team ( a 50+ regular season win team that will fall short every year). Now, four years later, that our plan is in full effect, I ask, how will we become elite? I want to contend for a title, not just be relevant.

Of course, we have taken steps in the right direction. We have pieces, we have scorers, defenders, and roll players. The best way, however, of judging how far we need to go is our first round playoff series against Miami. In that series, we could not score consistently. So that is where I begin, how is this team going to score consistently against an elite defensive team? Woodson I believe has this team focused on defensive fundamentals that are important in taking that next step, but do you think we can consistently put up points against Miami? OKC? LA?

I believe that Felton will improve this team. I also believe Amare will come back and be an effective PF, unlike last season and that Melo is not, and has not been, the issue with getting that team to the next level. In my opinion, we need consistent offensive contributions from the SG spot. Is JR that guy? Will Shump be that guy we have comes back from injury? Is it even realistic to think we can compete at the highest level this year? Because if we cannot then this whole plan formed and executed by Walsh has been a total waste.

[knicksnyk]

The first step to being elite is developing consistency in the regular season. Woodson is great for that. We need to compete for our division and establish ourselves as a top team in the east. I think we can be top 4 behind the Heat Celtics and Pacers. We also need to get past the first round of the POs. I don't see us getting past the second round to be honest. You are also right I do think our ability to score is going to be a big problem come playoff time. You don't win rings overnight, it is a process. anything below making it to the ECF is a disappointment to me and I think we are going to be disappointed this season.

[Thugger HBC]

There are some things that have to take place to becoming elite......

1) Maximize the training camp.... while there are examples against this, the majority of championships are won from teams whose core has been together from the start, and stays together....from bonding, knowing roles, having a team oriented focus.

2) Form a sticking identity....with this team imo, the staple will be defense, low scoring, post offense in half court sets.

3) Taking care of the regular season...win the bulk of the games you should, compete and grab some wins off equal or greater competition.

4) Going into the playoffs as healthy as possible, even if it requires letting players take games off to do so.

Even with these though, it still takes alot of luck and patience, as it doesn't usually happen in the first year.

[RHODEY]

As a long suffering Knicks fan there were reasons that I was ready willing and able to waste the 2008 and 2009 seasons to get under the cap for one reason: I wanted the team to become elite again. And I was not talking of building a new Atlanta Hawks or Denver Nuggets esque team ( a 50+ regular season win team that will fall short every year). Now, four years later, that our plan is in full effect, I ask, how will we become elite? I want to contend for a title, not just be relevant.

Of course, we have taken steps in the right direction. We have pieces, we have scorers, defenders, and roll players. The best way, however, of judging how far we need to go is our first round playoff series against Miami. In that series, we could not score consistently. So that is where I begin, how is this team going to score consistently against an elite defensive team? Woodson I believe has this team focused on defensive fundamentals that are important in taking that next step, but do you think we can consistently put up points against Miami? OKC? LA?

I believe that Felton will improve this team. I also believe Amare will come back and be an effective PF, unlike last season and that Melo is not, and has not been, the issue with getting that team to the next level. In my opinion, we need consistent offensive contributions from the SG spot. Is JR that guy? Will Shump be that guy we have comes back from injury? Is it even realistic to think we can compete at the highest level this year? Because if we cannot then this whole plan formed and executed by Walsh has been a total waste.

If we become a top 3 defensive team,and I believe we will... our offensive does not need to be ridiculous. You just need to outscore your opponent. The Bulls of the last 2 seasons were not offensive juggernauts but they were able to score enough to beat 61 teams out of 82 and secure the best record in the league.

That''s who we should model ourselves after even though I feel we several notches above them in terms of offensive weapons.

[Bigmo5246]

This is a top 3 team. The only thing preventing this team from being elite is the team itself.

[knicksnyk]

you have to be a top defensive and offensive team. look at miami they were top 6 on both offense and defense. there has to be a balance

[RHODEY]

you have to be a top defensive and offensive team. look at miami they were top 6 on both offense and defense. there has to be a balance

Maybe to win it all...but I would consider the Bulls of the last 2 seasons to be elite (widely considered to but amoung the top 4 in the league) and I dont believe their offense was anywhere near top 6.

Teams have made the finals without being offensive juggernauts but with elite defense. Now I think our team is unique because we have more weapons than those one dimension type teams - we do have guns - along with distributors.

[TKF]

The first step to being elite is developing consistency in the regular season. Woodson is great for that. We need to compete for our division and establish ourselves as a top team in the east. I think we can be top 4 behind the Heat Celtics and Pacers. We also need to get past the first round of the POs. I don't see us getting past the second round to be honest. You are also right I do think our ability to score is going to be a big problem come playoff time. You don't win rings overnight, it is a process. anything below making it to the ECF is a disappointment to me and I think we are going to be disappointed this season.

you make some great points here.. it is a process, one that can't and should not be cheated.

knicks need to be consistent for a whole season, make strides for a whole season...

So true, it is a process, but this team window is so small, so the process is going to get cheated... anything can happen, knicks can get lucky here, but I hate counting on luck..... we need everything to go perfectly and then some to have a punchers chance at this..

[TKF]

you have to be a top defensive and offensive team. look at miami they were top 6 on both offense and defense. there has to be a balance

Maybe to win it all...but I would consider the Bulls of the last 2 seasons to be elite (widely considered to but amoung the top 4 in the league) and I dont believe their offense was anywhere near top 6.

Teams have made the finals without being offensive juggernauts but with elite defense. Now I think our team is unique because we have more weapons than those one dimension type teams - we do have guns - along with distributors.

where rhodey? we really lack play makers and guys who can make plays for others.. kidd no longer is that player... unfortunately.. brewer is horrible offensively, JR smith is erratic, felton can make plays, but is not a game changer, amare can score... when he is not on the floor with melo.... chandler is not a scorer.. novak needs someone to set him up... knicks are going to have to try and win games ugly.... but hey, do what you have to do to win I guess...

[Brooklyn_Yards]

We need leadership(on court, bench and locker room), discipline, smart playmaking (from players and the coach), I'm not too worried about defense but I am very worried about the offense more than anything else we need a rhythym and flow. I really hope Brewer is working on his shot because he will have alot of openings like landry did. People especailly Melo need to move with out the ball it is key to us winning he needs to do what he did in the olympics. Also last year we were 2nd in 3pt attemps but only like 28th in made thats horrible I want to see more consistant shooting and driving to the paint.

[GettinitDone]

We need to be a great defensive team, that's first and foremost. If that happens then anything can happen.

AI and Rose were the lone scorers on their respective 2001 Sixers and 2011 Bulls teams and their teams were elite defensively. Has to be noted, even featuring those scorers, the teams were moving the ball fluidly. We can only hope the ball movement is going well and doesn't start sticking to Melo's hands. The role players have to commit to defense 110%.

[Brooklyn_Yards]

There are some things that have to take place to becoming elite......

1) Maximize the training camp.... while there are examples against this, the majority of championships are won from teams whose core has been together from the start, and stays together....from bonding, knowing roles, having a team oriented focus.

2) Form a sticking identity....with this team imo, the staple will be defense, low scoring, post offense in half court sets.
3) Taking care of the regular season...win the bulk of the games you should, compete and grab some wins off equal or greater competition.

4) Going into the playoffs as healthy as possible, even if it requires letting players take games off to do so.

Even with these though, it still takes alot of luck and patience, as it doesn't usually happen in the first year.

+1 to everthing you said here but to this in particular.

[21shumpshumpst]

I agree with everyone. Modeling ourselves to be the Bulls defensively would be good to shoot for. However, I don't think we can get there. Melo will never be Deng defensively. And Amare will be just as abysmal as Loozer. However, we will be much better offensively than them. PS: I hate those stupid Bulls.

C
Tyson = Noah - Offensively they are both very limited. But we have the defending Defensive player of the year. Coming off an olympic gold medal. I expect another strong season from him.
PF
Amare > Loozer - I don't care if its old man Amare. I would rather have him than Loozer. They both are liabilites defensively but Amare is head and shoulders above Loozer offensively.

SF
Melo > Deng - Melo is not the defensive presence that Deng is but offensively he more than makes up that gap. He needs to learn to score more off the ball and less iso's. He needs to put in work on the defensive end if this is going to work. However after what I saw in the Olympics I think he will be a beast offensively and so so defensively but I'll take it.

SG
Brewer = Brewer lol

PG
Felton < Rose - Rose is way better not much else to say.

[21shumpshumpst]

The first step to being elite is developing consistency in the regular season. Woodson is great for that. We need to compete for our division and establish ourselves as a top team in the east. I think we can be top 4 behind the Heat Celtics and Pacers. We also need to get past the first round of the POs. I don't see us getting past the second round to be honest. You are also right I do think our ability to score is going to be a big problem come playoff time. You don't win rings overnight, it is a process. anything below making it to the ECF is a disappointment to me and I think we are going to be disappointed this season.

you make some great points here.. it is a process, one that can't and should not be cheated.

knicks need to be consistent for a whole season, make strides for a whole season...

So true, it is a process, but this team window is so small, so the process is going to get cheated... anything can happen, knicks can get lucky here, but I hate counting on luck..... we need everything to go perfectly and then some to have a punchers chance at this..

Did we cheat the process when we completely revamped the 92 team to get the 93 team? We went from non contenders to contenders in a season THROUGH TRADES. Not through the draft. Not through developing young players. But through trading assets to get veterans.

92 vs 93
C Ewing Ewing
PF Oakley Oakley
SF Xman Charles Smith
SG Wilkins Starks
PG Jackson Rivers

We traded our young guy who we developed Mark Jackson for Charles Smith and Doc Rivers, two veterans. Was that cheating the process too? Because essentially that is what we did the past two seasons.

[RHODEY]

you have to be a top defensive and offensive team. look at miami they were top 6 on both offense and defense. there has to be a balance

Maybe to win it all...but I would consider the Bulls of the last 2 seasons to be elite (widely considered to but amoung the top 4 in the league) and I dont believe their offense was anywhere near top 6.

Teams have made the finals without being offensive juggernauts but with elite defense. Now I think our team is unique because we have more weapons than those one dimension type teams - we do have guns - along with distributors.

where rhodey? we really lack play makers and guys who can make plays for others.. kidd no longer is that player... unfortunately.. brewer is horrible offensively, JR smith is erratic, felton can make plays, but is not a game changer, amare can score... when he is not on the floor with melo.... chandler is not a scorer.. novak needs someone to set him up... knicks are going to have to try and win games ugly.... but hey, do what you have to do to win I guess...

Kidd, I think can still make plays, he cant give us starters minutes but I think he will be effective in limited stretches. I think back to John Stockton who was effective up until when he retired at age 41. Brewer is not a prolific shooter and he knows it. He's very efficient (50% FG) and will get you steals for easy points on the other end. No he's not ray allen but again when he moves to backup and Shump takes his place, I would think we are very solid there.

Chandler is not a scorer (just DPOY), yet amare is, Brewer is not a scorer(just a defensive terror), but Melo is. Felton is a blend of scoring ,playmaking and defense. I know you see the pattern TFK.... balance.


Perfect? Nope...we could use a dead eye shooter in the starting 5, but I trust we'll be more than ok if the Defense is as advertised and these guys get some time together under Woodson. Again look at what the Bulls have done....

You and others are correct in that the ball will have to move, but I think Melo and Amare will adapt and our 3 new facilitators will have a huge impact. What am I basing that on? The last 30 games of the last season and a decent serving of blind faith - I admit

Our bench is potentially sick ... . Jr as hot and cold as he is, off the bench is a perennial 6h man of the year candidate who has Woodson's confidence. The kid is dying to play with the Kidd. and..

... of course we still have Novak, plus the guys that will get the ball to Novak,

Prigs will surprise

Sorry for the ramble but do you see where I'm coming from TKF?

[21shumpshumpst]

Kidd, I think can still make plays, he cant give us starters minutes but I think he will be effective in limited stretches. I think back to John Stockton who was effective up until when he retired at age 41. Brewer is not a prolific shooter and he knows it. He's very efficient (50% FG) and will get you steals for easy points on the other end. No he's not ray allen but again when he moves to backup and Shump takes his place, I would think we are very solid there.

Chandler is not a scorer (just DPOY), yet amare is, Brewer is not a scorer(just a defensive terror), but Melo is. Felton is a blend of scoring ,playmaking and defense. I know you see the pattern TFK.... balance.


Perfect? Nope...we could use a dead eye shooter in the starting 5, but I trust we'll be more than ok if the Defense is as advertised and these guys get some time together under Woodson. Again look at what the Bulls have done....

You and others are correct in that the ball will have to move, but I think Melo and Amare will adapt and our 3 new facilitators will have a huge impact. What am I basing that on? Blind faith - I admit

Our bench is potentially sick ... . Jr as hot and cold as he is, off the bench is a perennial 6h man of the year candidate who has Woodson's confidence. The kid is dying to play with the Kidd. and..

... of course we still have Novak, plus the guys that will get the ball to Novak,

Prigs will surprise

Sorry for the ramble but do you see where I'm coming from TKF?

Great post. you did forget Camby though.

[UnderdogKnicks]

I like our roster a lot, it's actually balanced if u analyze it. We should have kept Lin since he was more talented but Felton actually brings more balance to this team. To make this team perfectly balanced this team needs a legit 3 point shooting threat at the wing position and a defensive/hustling PF/C. For this season, Knicks can become an elite team if they added the players that fits this team even more as I said earlier, staying healthy, and more comfortable playing with each other. It's all this team needs IMO.

[RHODEY]

Kidd, I think can still make plays, he cant give us starters minutes but I think he will be effective in limited stretches. I think back to John Stockton who was effective up until when he retired at age 41. Brewer is not a prolific shooter and he knows it. He's very efficient (50% FG) and will get you steals for easy points on the other end. No he's not ray allen but again when he moves to backup and Shump takes his place, I would think we are very solid there.

Chandler is not a scorer (just DPOY), yet amare is, Brewer is not a scorer(just a defensive terror), but Melo is. Felton is a blend of scoring ,playmaking and defense. I know you see the pattern TFK.... balance.


Perfect? Nope...we could use a dead eye shooter in the starting 5, but I trust we'll be more than ok if the Defense is as advertised and these guys get some time together under Woodson. Again look at what the Bulls have done....

You and others are correct in that the ball will have to move, but I think Melo and Amare will adapt and our 3 new facilitators will have a huge impact. What am I basing that on? Blind faith - I admit

Our bench is potentially sick ... . Jr as hot and cold as he is, off the bench is a perennial 6h man of the year candidate who has Woodson's confidence. The kid is dying to play with the Kidd. and..

... of course we still have Novak, plus the guys that will get the ball to Novak,

Prigs will surprise

Sorry for the ramble but do you see where I'm coming from TKF?

Great post. you did forget Camby though.

Didn't want to ramble

[TKF]

Kidd, I think can still make plays, he cant give us starters minutes but I think he will be effective in limited stretches. I think back to John Stockton who was effective up until when he retired at age 41. Brewer is not a prolific shooter and he knows it. He's very efficient (50% FG) and will get you steals for easy points on the other end. No he's not ray allen but again when he moves to backup and Shump takes his place, I would think we are very solid there.

Chandler is not a scorer (just DPOY), yet amare is, Brewer is not a scorer(just a defensive terror), but Melo is. Felton is a blend of scoring ,playmaking and defense. I know you see the pattern TFK.... balance.


Perfect? Nope...we could use a dead eye shooter in the starting 5, but I trust we'll be more than ok if the Defense is as advertised and these guys get some time together under Woodson. Again look at what the Bulls have done....

You and others are correct in that the ball will have to move, but I think Melo and Amare will adapt and our 3 new facilitators will have a huge impact. What am I basing that on? The last 30 games of the last season and a decent serving of blind faith - I admit

Our bench is potentially sick ... . Jr as hot and cold as he is, off the bench is a perennial 6h man of the year candidate who has Woodson's confidence. The kid is dying to play with the Kidd. and..

... of course we still have Novak, plus the guys that will get the ball to Novak,

Prigs will surprise

Sorry for the ramble but do you see where I'm coming from TKF?

well rhodey I am not trying to be a kill joy, but I think you may be overly optomistic here..

I love chandler and yes he is defensive player of the year, but we are talking about offensive weapons right? unless you meant weapons overall on both sides of the ball, I stand corrected...

it is hard to compare kidd to stockton here, stockton ran pick and roll until he was 41 and was still a good jump shooter off that set.. kidd no longer can beat guys off the dribble, enough to get defenses to respect..

shump is out till mid season and I don't think it is fair to assume he will give us anything substantial until next year, although I hope I am dead wrong.

offensively, brewer is trash.. LOL. sorry

JR smith is erratic..

this prigs guy, we know nothing about...

felton is fine

but that leaves carmelo and amare... if both guys played well together, I could understand the optimism.. but so far, they don't.. that is my main concern. until that problem is fixed, not sure that I can set high expectations on this beam..

sorry for the negativity, although I am being honest here...

[kamelion4291]

you have to be a top defensive and offensive team. look at miami they were top 6 on both offense and defense. there has to be a balance

Maybe to win it all...but I would consider the Bulls of the last 2 seasons to be elite (widely considered to but amoung the top 4 in the league) and I dont believe their offense was anywhere near top 6.

Teams have made the finals without being offensive juggernauts but with elite defense. Now I think our team is unique because we have more weapons than those one dimension type teams - we do have guns - along with distributors.

Chicago was 5th in points per 100 possessions last year, one spot above Miami. There's a reason they had the best record in the league.

The Knicks were 19th, and that was helped greatly by Linsanity.