#13 Highest Peak of All Time (Julius '76 wins)

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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#41 » by JordansBulls » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:51 pm

Between these guys for me

--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
Moses Malone 1983: 25.1, 0.248 -----25.7, 0.260 (13 playoff games, title)
Dwyane Wade 2006: 27.6, 0.239-------26.9, 0.240 (23 playoff games, title)
Julius Erving 1976: 28.7, 0.262-----32.0, 0.321 (13 playoff games, title) - ABA



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/ ... ormances-1

2006 WADE'S STATS
Points per game: 34.7
Boards per game: 7.8
Steals per game: 2.7
PER: 33.8


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2 ... nces-11-20

MOSES MALONE FINALS STATS
Points per game: 25.8
Boards per game: 18.0
Blocks per game: 1.5
PER: 26.0

VOTE: Dwyane Wade 2006. This guy carried the Heat this season and his production was clearly superior to any of his teammates this season and then to top it off had a historic Conference Finals and NBA Finals.
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#42 » by wevee » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:29 pm

2006 is Kobe's peak. It's not his fault he played with garbage. Put him on the 08 Lakers and they're even better.

35+/5+/5/2/0.5/56% TS/114 ORTG/9% TOV/28+ PER/15+ WS/0.244 WS/48
#1 offensive RAPM by far
#1 raw offensive +/- in league. Highest EVER recorded (+21)
27 40+ point games
9 50+ point games
Two different months averaging 40+ PPG
81 pts
62 in three quarters
Took a garbage supporting cast of Kwame/Smush/Luke/Mihm/Odom to 46 wins/7th best SRS(2.52)/7th rated ORTG

This is Kobe at his most dominant. SMH @ people thinking he was better in 08.
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#43 » by wevee » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:31 pm

[quote="An Unbiased Fan"]
Except Phil himself disagrees with you. With that roster, they needed Kobe to score in huge volume and Kobe did this at an all-time level. This was a team of Smush, Odom, Cook, Mihm, Kwame. The point is to score more points than the opponent, and Kobe's 35+ ppg on 55% TS certainly was highly imapctful at making up for that roster's shortcomings.
[quote]
It was actually 35+ PPG on 56% TS with one of the lowest TOV% rates in the league. 114 ORTG.
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#44 » by drza » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:26 pm

Here's a sentence I never thought to type here: I agree with AUF. At least about some of the things I'm reading regarding Kobe (and Wade) in this thread. I don't think we can only use the standard of whether a player's style of play that year is exactly what he would run on a better team, because it biases us towards players actually ON successful teams. There's no way we can reasonably expect a player like Kobe to not score on a team that obviously needs scoring...I disagree with the notion that a player can or should always play the same style they would if the team was better. We should judge a player by what they needed to do for their particular team to have the most success.

Now, it's fair to look at if a player was CAPABLE of playing a championship-conducive style given a better situation, and to make estimates on whether their improved stats in one style would translate to better team results in another instance. But I don't think it's fair to categorically rule out Kobe's 2006, for example, just because he was playing on a poor team that required he play a certain way. Said another way, Kobe could be more impressive playing the "wrong" way in a given season than he could by playing the "right" way in another...I think each season should be judged on its own merits.

And to that end, I also disagree with the notion that we should asterisk Wade's 2010 playoff performance just because he did it in a no-win situation. Regardless of what the team results looked like or the strategy of the opponent, Wade did all that he could do. I understand Doc's notion that he's not penalizing Wade for 2010 as much as he's not rewarding him for it, but as I read the analysis and the resulting rhetoric that concept doesn't shine through. The resulting arguments DO sound, to me, as though 2010 Wade is getting punished because his team sucked.

Caveat: I'm in no way necessarily saying that I think 2006 Kobe or 2010 Wade are their peaks (haven't really decided yet). I'm just saying that I don't agree with some of the tacts that some have been taking to argue against those being their peaks. If that makes sense.

By the way...wevee? Seriously? Does this guy just have an unlimited supply of IP addresses and accounts that he has access to making?
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#45 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:32 pm

ElGee wrote:They were, of course, amazing in the 01 PS. And Derek Fisher didn't miss against the Spurs, I mean, literally, I'm pretty sure he was 15-20 on 3's in 4 games.

I do have a problem giving Kobe so much credit in 4 games. We seem to be hitting a theme lately with results-oriented analysis -- isn't this the very thing you are arguing against with Mufasa? -- but he matched up very well with SAS. The Spurs had no extra help to give him because of Shaq AND they had no perimeter defender for a 6-6 2-guard. None.

To look at those 4 games and then say that makes that version of Kobe Bryant better than, well, someone clearly improved in 2003 (that guy turned the 3-pointer into a pullup jumper), or the 2008 version (best offensive combination of athleticism, scoring skill and creation/feel of the Bryants) seems unfounded to me. It's just overlooking too many circumstantial factors.

Not necessarily intended to you Doc, but I sometimes wonder if one of these players played a college team in the "National-World Invitational Finals" and averaged 45 and 20 on 65% TS if people wouldn't be arguing them for GOAT and really really having a hard time separating circumstance from performance. (The current argument being used against your guy, Erving.) It's a sample size of 1 (team) and 4 (games).

I'll make an argument I often allude to with Karl Malone. If there were no NBA Finals, and the Lakers season ended after the 2008 WCF's, wouldn't you be touting what Bryant did just as hard, if not harder, than these 4 games in 2001?

Bryant 2008 WC (15g): 32-6-6 61% TS 10.6% TOV 119 ORTG
Bryant 2001 PS (16g): 29-7-6 56% TS 10.7% TOV 116 ORTG

The 08 Lakers had a +8.3 ORtg and 11.7 SRS in the WC PS. (01 team was 12.7 and 18.2, respectively.) Why would you lean toward 01 then?


I didn't mean to present an argument where you had to side with a 4 game performance. Sorry about being confusing. I'm just trying to highlight highlights.

I think you've got a strong point here relating to 2008, and really I never intended to say '01 >> '08, just that I could really see the argument for siding with '01.
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#46 » by ardee » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:38 pm

drza wrote:
By the way...wevee? Seriously? Does this guy just have an unlimited supply of IP addresses and accounts that he has access to making?


reve, devee, weeve.... :rofl:
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#47 » by wevee » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:41 pm

U mad?
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#48 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:49 pm

ElGee wrote:A few things need to be clarified here:

-2009 Wade had an injured back (IIRC) in the Atlanta series. This is a black mark for me as I don't necessarily think it's obvious he would have rounded into shape. And that obviously affected his play in that series. I really respect a 2010 vote for Wade, and I might even lean in that direction over 2011.

-2010 Wade v Boston: Take it from a Celtics fan, Boston was trying to stop Wade with the same defense they used against Kobe and LeBron. Wade's just a different animal. They simply couldn't contain his dribble, and his shot selection was fantastic.

Wade had 42 opportunities created in 5 games, breaking down as:

4-4 layups
8-19 2's (this is bad)
5-12 3's
2-2 OREB putbacks

and 3 more somewhere that I can't find. (On/off has it as 70-181 on 2's with Wade in -- 38.9% -- and 18-46 on 2's with Wade out 39.1%. 3's at 1-5 off and 36.7% on.)

The point here is that simply because Miami's ORtg was quite low (against the historic Boston D) doesn't mean they were letting Wade get his at all. They were, in fact, ONLY trying to stop Wade, and they couldn't. That's why they had a juicy lead in G1, won G4 and lost G3 at the buzzer. When I read Doc say "he didn't draw blood," I thought "well, yes he did." A pinprick, maybe because he was team was so poor, but it was insanely impressive. Make of that what you will.


Hmm, well I guess multiple things:

-To me being injured in the playoffs isn't that big of a deal if you're talking about a guy who wouldn't have gotten out of the first round anyway, particularly in comparison to another player in a first round exit. This is a philosophy thing so I get if others disagree, but apples-to-apple, I just keep asking myself "So those few short games of losing impressed so much we're going to throw out the entire regular season?". The answer is not something I have to agonize over.

-Re: Celtics just couldn't stop Wade like they could LeBron & Kobe. Well, as mentioned, I respect other people being willing to rely on their own scouting, but numerically the Celtics were clearly more successful stopping the Heat offense than the other offenses. To look at Wade succeeded where the other two failed when the Celtics were more comfortable in their success while playing Wade than at any other time just doesn't make much sense to me.

Also, if we're getting into LeBron & Kobe, then we're back into the same debate we had in the '10 POY discussion where I argued the same thing. I found the notion that I should elevate Wade above LeBron & Kobe based on one series against a single matchup where his team got pwned crazy then, just as I do now.
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#49 » by Lightning25 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:52 pm

wevee wrote:U mad?

Can RealGM just contact this guy's ISP already for abusing this site? He has had multiple usernames on here and he has been banned and ip banned a countless amount of times.
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#50 » by lorak » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:08 pm

[quote:****]

why not Oscar Robertson ? his impact was insane. he was leading top ranked offenses every year throughout the 60s. when he missed games Royals were the worst team in the NBA. then he came to Bucks and with other minor changes they went from 4.25 SRS to 11.91 SRS. next year, they were at about 12.5 SRS before Oscar's injury (abdominal strain, same thing KG had in 08 and Bosh last year in the playoffs). Oscar almost had no ceiling. you can argue 1971 Bucks are the best offensive team in history, better than 1987 Lakers. this is past prime Oscar, mind you. Kareem was the best player on that roster but Oscar had the most impact offensively. Bucks offense simply skyrocketed in 71, going from 29 OWS to 43 OWS (Lakers 87 had ~40 OWS). from what I've seen of Oscar in the late 60s/early 70s (there couple games available), he was extremely efficient, without any flash whatsoever, he just methodically backed you where he wanted you to be and just shot over you, he was great in transition, seemed to have this 4-eyes type of vision and was a great, great leader.

I think over the years I've been here Oscar has been one of the most appreciated players. I've heard so many fallacious comments about him, and not just from casual posters, I'm talking about the very best of 'em. TrueLAFan always made his case against Oscar based on poor defense (that's why he was guarding Jerry West...), ballhogging (that led to top ranked offenses), being a bad leader (sources only tell us his teammates were sometimes afraid of him) or that he had a great supporting cast and underperformed on a team-level (like 3-14 without him in 68). I remember having several debates with him and the myths created beforehand have an impact today as well.

Oscar deserves a lot more credit. recently I've been analysing his 70s years with the Bucks and he really seems like he's having significant impact. he was far better in the 60s, because he was able to put up 25-35 pts and 8-14 assists every night depending on what his team needed. just a great player, so versatile, always quoted by his peers as having no weaknesses in his game and he was just so efficient when you look at the tape. his peak is pretty impressive too, he won an MVP over pretty much peak Wilt and peak Russell (64, both had amazing years). I think he got overlooked as this project was rolling on, but it's probably time for him to get in.[/quote:****]

True. But what season was his peak?
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#51 » by lorak » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:20 pm

ThaRegul8r,
do you have any info about Oscar vs Celtics in 1963 playoffs? Any stats, game recaps?
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#52 » by PTB Fan » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:41 pm

DavidStern wrote:ThaRegul8r,
do you have any info about Oscar vs Celtics in 1963 playoffs? Any stats, game recaps?


I'll save TheRegulat8or some time for that.

vs Celtics '63


Game 1: 43 points, 14 rebounds, 10 assists (17/25 FG, 9/12 FT)
Game 2: 28 points, 13 rebounds, (9/15 FG, 10/11 FT)
Game 3: 23 points, 12 rebounds, 8 assists (7/21 FG, 9/10 FT)
Game 4: 25 points, 15 rebounds (8/23 FG, 9/11 FT)
Game 5: 36 points, 12 rebounds, 10 assists (14/26 FG, 8/8 FT)
Game 6: 36 points, 15 rebounds (14/31 FG, 8/9 FT)
Game 7: 43 points, 6 rebounds, 6 assists (11/24 FG, 21/22 FT)


Series Averages: 33.4 PPG, 12.4 RPG, 8.5 APG (?) on 48.5 %FG, 89.2 %FT, 58.1 %TS


Credit to Hoops Nation for the stats.

Edit: Also...

http://www.risingabovetherim.com/boxscores

This site has the box score of a ton of Russell games. Save it for future use. A very valuable source
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#53 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:48 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
When you say it's the "best non-MJ" you're already making all sorts of assumptions.

It's clearly only the 'best" if you value the volume scoring high enough, and if you value the volume scoring for volume's sake then yes, you're going to love his season. However, as I indicated, the scale of Kobe's volume is not something good team's WANT. It's not a goal, it's not an accomplishment to check off the list.


I said "the best non-MJ scoring season of the modern era". So yeh....volume scoring is rather the point when looking at a scoring season.


I honestly don't understand how you can say after all the time spent debating this subject and my current arguments.

No, the point of looking at a scorer's season is not how many points he scores. It's about the impact his scoring has. Efficiency plays into that, and other things play into that.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:And Phil wanted it. It DID turn LA into a good team and gave them the #7 SRS that season. I thought this project was about the highest peaks? It's strange that with Kobe, a highly impactful year is not what a good team would want. That Laker squad needed him to score that much, look at their roster.


So you're not going to address the other stuff I brought up about the Triangle, unipolarity, and Phil writing a book lashing out at Kobe? I mean, if you want to do that but then give specifics about why '06 was different that's cool, but you're not doing that right now.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
Re: 30 on 55% is delivering. C'mon dude. I'm talking about his ability to deliver at the levels YOU were bragging about. He's obviously delivering a lot, but he's not delivering the stuff that impressed you most when it counts.

And before anyone says this next rebuttal again: No, I'm not holding Kobe to a higher standard than everyone else by knocking him after people praise his hot streaks, I'm just trying to get people to understand how they should analyze this stuff. Credit him with 30 & 55% absolutely, but don't act like he was dropping 40+ in a typical playoff game.


Of course you're holding Kobe to a higher standard than anyone else. To repeat Kobe had perhaps the best 2 scoring months in NBA history that year...


I'm just going to cut you off there, because there's no good reason for you to go back there, and I'm not going to explain my position again when you aren't addressing it.

I'm going to skip down to your next separate point:

An Unbiased Fan wrote: Kobe averaged 43 ppg against PHX in 2006. If Phil felt that was the way to go in the 1st round, he could have easily duplicated those numbers in the playoffs, but the strategy was to work the paint. After they dropped game 5, Phil told Kobe to go back into scoring mode and he dropped 50 points on 66% TS. yet LA still lost to the superior team. You're ignoring the fact that LA tried a different strategy in the playoffs.


It's interesting how you organize all this stuff into your brain. Let me see if I got this straight:

Kobe could score 50 points at will against Phoenix, but Phil saw a better strategy against Phoenix so they had Kobe score less, and it still wasn't enough because Phoenix was so dang superior.

Let me ask some questions under the assumption that you don't think Phil is an idiot:

Do you ever try to connect the facts other present with your existing schema?

Do you think that a typical defense would be so problematic that Kobe could appear to torch it, and yet that still wasn't their most vulnerable spot?

Do you see a connection between why I keep telling you that the Phoenix team that the Lakers played was a .500 ballclub held together by duct tape and why the Lakers had all of these fantastic scoring options against them?

Now look, I think it's a fair comment to make that in Kobe's big scoring season, we never really got to see Kobe try to do that in the playoffs. I'm sure that's very frustrating, and I do understand why some will pick that season for Kobe.

However to me, what picking '06 Kobe represents is simply falling in love with the big individual numbers as if it was one magical season, and never making the connection that it's not a coincidence that Kobe shot like that because of his weak supporting cast. If you think Kobe had anything like a normal, graceful career arc, then to me you've got to make that connection and ask yourself why you're so in love with the year where the team wasn't actually successful.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
I expect I'll have to go more into this but the crux:

No he didn't. He went up against a Suns team that HAD BEEN clearly superior for most of the year before they got hit with more injuries. Then they lost their ability to hang in the paint, they played .500 ball the rest of the way, and this continued in the playoffs as they got outrebounded by 8 boards per game. Nobody should be winning series with rebounding that bad, but the Suns did, because their .500-ish ball was still about as good as the Lakers and Clippers.


Wait....are you saying the Suns weren't the superior squad? The Suns were a 5.48 SRS team, 14 out of their last 22 games were on the road that year, so again, I'm not sure why you choose to diminish what LA did, by making the assertion that they were a .500 team.


They won half their game down the stretch, then went to the playoffs and got outrebounded by 8 boards per game, all while playing without any legit big man, and instead of you recognizing the connection when it's put in front of your face, you quote me the year cume SRS?

I don't know what to say. Seems like we're not going to get anywhere.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:Again, Kobe is being held to a standard that no one else has. Certainly not Lebron in 2009 when he lost to a lesser Magic team missing their PG. You didn't even mention the fact that Kwame was hit with a false **** allegation in the middle of the PHX series, that changed his play.


What incredible bad luck it is that the unbiased poster's favorite player is the one who is held to unfair standards by everyone else.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
-"2005...before injuries". There is no excuse for the end of that year. Kobe packed in it. It's not any huge sin. I don't care about it when judging his career, but clearly I'm not going to be trumpeting that particular season here.


This is false. Kobe like many others on that team were hurt. Where in the World did you get the notion that Kobe packed it in? There's no merit to that statement, and you're the only person I have even heard suggest that.


I'm certainly not the first one to suggest such a thing, but look, I'm trying to drop this. You've fixated on something that was never my point, and which I don't see as relevant to the conversation.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:I guess KG "packed it in" from 2006-2007 when the Wolves were absolutely horrible. Or does only Kobe get this treatment?


...I'm trying to drop this, but do you understand how bad a stretch 2-19 is? There's no team in NBA history that bad. When a team finishes the season going 2-19, it's just kind of obvious to me that they weren't engaged. I don't crucify any of them, and I'm not crucifying Kobe now. It just is what it is.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
-"Kobe didn't play by Phil's methods." C'mon Phil wrote a book in which Kobe got called "uncoachable". What exactly do you think that meant? I mean, obviously it's hyperbole, but you don't get called that if you're doing what the coach is telling you to do all the time.


Huh? That book was made back in 2004, and Phil came back to coach Kobe so clearly he felt he was coachable. How in the World can you attribute a quote from 2004, and use that in discussions about later seasons?


As I said before, "uncoachable" was clear hyperbole. Phil was frustrated, and frankly said stuff he shouldn't have. Phil should not get of scott free here...but now we know his feelings, it's obvious what causes them, and those issues didn't totally go away when Phil returned. Phil just learned to deal with Kobe's improvisation because Kobe was an exceptional enough talent that even with his warts you'd be a fool not to want him.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:It's this kind of nitpicking which I didn't see for anyone else. In 2006, it's well known that Phil WANTED Kobe to score in huge volume, that was Phil's plan, and it worked extremely well for a squad most didn't even pick to make the playoffs. So to make it seem like Kobe was going against Phil's wishes is flatout wrong.


If you could show some evidence along those lines, that could be helpful.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
-"Used the same style to win 2 titles". Yikes, now I'm wishing I'd read the whole post before going through point by point.

Kobe shot far less in the years he won those titles than in '05-06. He did that because he played in a far more fluid offense which was only possible because he was contributing to its fluidity. I don't know how you can think that's the same style.

No, he shot less because he had better talent around him. :lol:


Ugh. Okay, I'm ending it here.

You are saying RIGHT HERE that Kobe changed how he played because the players around him changed. When you change how you play, that's synonymous with changing your style.

I feel like again and again here you're fixating on tiny little things that don't amount to anything, and right now I'm just amazed I spent so much time trying to correct these little things when we aren't even really having a debate that's immediately relevant to the actual point of the project.
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#54 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:57 pm

drza wrote:And to that end, I also disagree with the notion that we should asterisk Wade's 2010 playoff performance just because he did it in a no-win situation. Regardless of what the team results looked like or the strategy of the opponent, Wade did all that he could do. I understand Doc's notion that he's not penalizing Wade for 2010 as much as he's not rewarding him for it, but as I read the analysis and the resulting rhetoric that concept doesn't shine through. The resulting arguments DO sound, to me, as though 2010 Wade is getting punished because his team sucked.


Man, I'm trying so hard to make clear exactly why that's not what I'm telling people to do.

Look, we're in philosophy territory here. For anyone not sure what I mean by that, I mean: There's not one right way to judge this stuff. People can choose what they want, I'm just trying to make sure people understand their thought process.

I really understand the idea that Wade's play late in '10 convinces someone he's basically the same guy that year as before, and then hey, look how nice he looked in the playoffs that year. I get how someone could use that to vote for '10 Wade.

Everyone should though also understand the issue with taking individual numbers too seriously in 1) losses, and 2) small sample sizes. I guess I'll leave it at that for now.
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#55 » by PTB Fan » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:02 pm

Re: Oscar's peak season

It's either the '63 or '64 season. In '63, he went from a superb RS where he posted near triple double numbers to LeBron '09 like performances throughout the entire playoffs. He killed from the first to last game there. I don't have the full stats for the series against the Nationals (TheRegulat8or, if you have anything, it would be appreciated) but from the data I found, Oscar had 41 points, 15 rebounds and 12 assists in Game 2 to tie the series.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=2v ... tson&hl=en

He averaged 29.4 points for the series. I'm assuming he wasn't too far off his playoff numbers... double digit numbers in rebounding and close to double digit numbers in assists. His rebounding is what impresses me most this season though.. he had a fair amount of games where he was the leading rebounder for his Cincinnati. If you look at the advanced numbers, you'll probably see his TRB% below CP3's and other rebounding PGs but even so, they don't speak for his ability and will to do the dirty work which translates well in any era.

He took it to a whole new level against the Celtics though. In terms of carrying a team on your back, this is as good as it can be. In '64, he had a much better RS: led his team to #1 record, won his only MVP award, posted career high numbers in nearly statistical category and was equally amazing in the first round. He got injured at one point in the PS.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=vu ... ries&hl=en


Now.. how much did the injury effect him, how serious was it.. we can't tell. His numbers did slip versus Boston to 28/6 (credit to TheRegulat8or for the stats) on around 40% FG% efficiency in a series where his teammate Lucas also re-injured himself and that killed the Royals' chances badly to beat Boston.

Now.. it's on a point where you decide do you go with the 63 version who put sick playoff numbers from a great regular season and shows his excellence in terms of putting a team on his back... or you go to the '64 version.. a guy who had his best RS of his career, led his team to #1 record in Celtics dominance, promised a lot, dominated opening round and fell off to Boston with less fight this time due to many things.
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#56 » by lorak » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:06 pm

PTB Fan wrote:
DavidStern wrote:ThaRegul8r,
do you have any info about Oscar vs Celtics in 1963 playoffs? Any stats, game recaps?


I'll save TheRegulat8or some time for that.

vs Celtics '63


Game 1: 43 points, 14 rebounds, 10 assists (17/25 FG, 9/12 FT)
Game 2: 28 points, 13 rebounds, (9/15 FG, 10/11 FT)
Game 3: 23 points, 12 rebounds, 8 assists (7/21 FG, 9/10 FT)
Game 4: 25 points, 15 rebounds (8/23 FG, 9/11 FT)
Game 5: 36 points, 12 rebounds, 10 assists (14/26 FG, 8/8 FT)
Game 6: 36 points, 15 rebounds (14/31 FG, 8/9 FT)
Game 7: 43 points, 6 rebounds, 6 assists (11/24 FG, 21/22 FT)


Series Averages: 33.4 PPG, 12.4 RPG, 8.5 APG (?) on 48.5 %FG, 89.2 %FT, 58.1 %TS


Credit to Hoops Nation for the stats.

Edit: Also...

http://www.risingabovetherim.com/boxscores

This site has the box score of a ton of Russell games. Save it for future use. A very valuable source


Thank you very much PTB Fan!

So Oscar was amazing. Against one of three best defensive teams of all time (1963 Celtics drtg relatively to league average was around -9, only Celtics 64 and 65 were better with drtg around -10) he averaged 33 ppg, 12 rpg and 8-9 apg with 58.1 TS% (when league average was 49.3!). AMAZING.
thebottomline
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#57 » by thebottomline » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:44 pm

The more I look at Erving's '76 postseason the less amazing it seems. Per 75 possessions he averaged 28.1 points in that playoff run. We've seen higher volume from other offensive players in just the past few playoffs, and on similar efficiency ('09 LeBron, '11 Dirk, '08 Kobe through the first 3 rounds/16 games).

Then I look at Erving's 61.0 TS% in the context of his entire career... and it does seem to be somewhat of a "fluke". His second highest TS% in a playoff run was 58.1% in 1982. His highest RS TS% was 59.3%, also in 1982. Outside of that, he was a 56-57 TS% guy (and in the '76 RS his TS% was 56.9%). So 61.0 TS% stands out as a bit of an anomaly to me.

The question is whether his '76 playoff performance, regardless of whether it's an anomaly, should boost his season (more generally, this goes for any player's playoff performance). Well, I think it depends on your evaluation criteria/philosophy. In my case, I'm evaluating these players based purely on their value/skillset. I guess the question I'm asking myself is: in what year was a guy at his absolute best, and just how good was he really on average? What can I reasonably expect his skillset to give me over the course of a full season + playoffs if I plug him into any number of different scenarios and environments?

It may be the case that if we plug in '76 Erving into all those different scenarios, he raises his game in the playoffs to this extent more often than not. But right now I have trouble buying it, given that it's a sample of 13 games and because from what I can see, he never came close to replicating this kind of increase in playoff production in any other year.

Is it fair to shrug off his playoff performance as little more than a really great player getting hot at the right time (kind of how I feel about '09 LeBron)? Maybe not, since we are in theory judging single seasons... But I'd agree with others that it's important to look to surrounding seasons as well to give us some context. And as long as I'm consistent in my evaluations I think I'm being fair. Because I'm not handing out bonus points to guys who put up better numbers in the PS than in the RS, or penalizing guys who put up lower numbers in the PS than in the RS, unless there's some evidence that that was the norm for the player in question (and preferably, if there's some discernible trait or flaw in his skillset that explains the increase/decrease in production, e.g. Robinson's relative inability to create for himself).

So yeah, I find it hard to elevate Erving's value as a player, based on his playoff performance, to the point where it clearly puts him over other guys in consideration (Robinson, Wade, Kobe, etc). But I can understand why others would feel differently, based on their particular evaluation criteria.

This of course resolves little about whether I think he deserves the #13 spot, because I might still place him 13th on my own list after giving it more thought. But it'll be based mostly on his value/skillset, what he can bring to the table on a consistent basis. Right now I have him extremely close with those other guys, all of whom are a (slight) step down from the top 12 tier IMO.

I'd be in agreement btw that 93 Hakeem, 02 Duncan, etc. were the best versions of those players in terms of their value.
MisterWestside
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#58 » by MisterWestside » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:10 pm

Do you see a connection between why I keep telling you that the Phoenix team that the Lakers played was a .500 ballclub held together by duct tape and why the Lakers had all of these fantastic scoring options against them?


You've spent more than enough time arguing the finer points about '06 Kobe/Lakers to UAB, but this particular point is something that some Kobe fans foget in their "Kobe v the world" narrative: Amare Stoudamire, the same guy who posted a 14.6 WS/.243 WS/48/+4.8 SPM/+8.9 on-off season in 2005, wasn't in the lineup.

So while the Lakers were playing a good team, they weren't exactly world-beaters, and they took advantage of matchups against the Suns sans Amare.
thebottomline
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#59 » by thebottomline » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:24 pm

I find the Kobe vs. Kobe debate really thought-provoking as I try to peg down when he peaked in terms of player value. The argument that replacing '08 Kobe with '06 Kobe would yield better results for the '08 Lakers is a compelling one to me.

Could '06 Kobe, if asked to play '08 Kobe's role on the '08 Lakers, have done better at that role than '08 Kobe did? How do we even determine this? Well, I think the relevant question to ask is - did '08 Kobe improve in any way over '06 Kobe - mentally, offensively, defensively? '08 Kobe certainly displayed a more well-rounded game than '06 Kobe, but I find myself feeling that it was simply due to team circumstance, having a better supporting cast that took some of the offensive burden off of him and allowed him to focus on doing other things.

My gut tells me '06 Kobe could have fulfilled '08 Kobe's role slightly better. Slightly better athleticism due to younger legs, just as polished offensively, probably better defensively when going full effort. Heck, he played a more all-around game in prior years such as '01 and '03. But in '06, his coach wanted him to carry a bigger offensive load, and he did it very well. But could '01, '03, or '08 Kobe have played '06 Kobe's role on the '06 Lakers just as well as '06 Kobe did? I find myself saying no, not quite.

So if my gut tells me '06 Kobe could have played '01, '03 and '08 Kobe's role just as well, but the reverse isn't quite as true... doesn't that mean in my view, Kobe's skillset, his value, peaked in 2006?
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Re: #13 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#60 » by The Infamous1 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:30 pm

I used to always think 2006 was Bryant's masterpiece season but now I think 2008 is when you talk overall play.

28/6/5 on a 57% T/S with All NBA 1st team Defense,(anchoring a top 3 offense)Leading the Lakers to the best record(15 game improvement) in the most competitive WCF ever with none of his teammates making the all star game.

In the playoffs
30.1 ppg 5.7 rpg 5.6 apg 58TS%(29/6/4 53% vs. Spurs WCF)
We can get paper longer than Pippens arms

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