Advanced Stats Comparison: Why is Kobe so "mediocre"?

[Texas Chuck]

And the amount of hate for Kobe is really REALLY strong on this forum.

Yes players have fans who support the heck outta their player, but damn! I've never seen a player receive so much hate with so much detail as Kobe receives. They discredit him every which way possible, Championships? Well, "Most dominant center" "Most stacked front-court EVAHHH" 81 Points: "Worst defense EVAHHH" Being the best SG for 10+ Years: "Well, he's no MJ and he's a copycat" Consistently one of the best most successful players: "Well, he's got the best franchise in the NBA!"

There's no win with you haters.

The reason for "haters" is because as great as Kobe truly is--his game does have holes and weaknesses but guys like you and Skip fight to the death that he is the perfect player. If you would acknowledge his negatives and then say but I can live with those because of all the good then people wouldnt "hate" so hard. Because for most people its less about "hating" Kobe as much as it is framing his career and game in the proper perspective.

[HilltopperJay]

And the amount of hate for Kobe is really REALLY strong on this forum.

Yes players have fans who support the heck outta their player, but damn! I've never seen a player receive so much hate with so much detail as Kobe receives. They discredit him every which way possible, Championships? Well, "Most dominant center" "Most stacked front-court EVAHHH" 81 Points: "Worst defense EVAHHH" Being the best SG for 10+ Years: "Well, he's no MJ and he's a copycat" Consistently one of the best most successful players: "Well, he's got the best franchise in the NBA!"

There's no win with you haters.

How many franchise level superstars got to play with the most dominant player of their era for half their career?

Exhibit A!

It was an honest question. I suppose I would wish to avoid it as well if I were a devout Kobe follower. Just trying to put your oh-so-wonderfully-crafted ringz argument in perspective.

[Minge]

Why is Kobe so mediocre in the Finals, too?

2000 Finals: 19 Pts. 4 Reb. 5 Ast. | G1. G2. G3. G4. G5. G6.
2001 Finals: 27 Pts. 9 Reb. 6 Ast. | G1. G2. G3. G4. G5.
2002 Finals: 27 Pts. 6 Reb. 5 Ast. | G1. G2. G3. G4.
2004 Finals: 22 Pts. 3 Reb. 4 Ast. | G1. G2. G3. G4. G5.
2008 Finals: 25 Pts. 5 Reb. 5 Ast. | G1. G2. G3. G4. G5. G6.
2009 Finals: 32 Pts. 6 Reb. 7 Ast. | G1. G2. G3. G4. G5.
2010 Finals: 28 Pts. 8 Reb. 4 Ast. | G1. G2. G3. G4. G5. G6. G7.

Lebron James’ Finals Series Averages

2007 Finals: 22 Pts. 7 Reb. 7 Ast.
2011 Finals: 18 Pts. 7 Reb. 7 Ast.
2012 Finals: 28 Pts. 10 Reb. 7 Ast.

[tsherkin]

Yep, even in 2011 when he had a good team, Lebron came up dry in the Finals. Kind of like how Kobe played poorly in various Finals series. It happens; they do end up playing one of the best teams from the other conference, so it's not altogether surprising. Part of the reason Jordan's regarded so highly is for his ability to come through at all levels of the RS and PS with a similar level of dominance. Realistically, even Magic and Bird (and others) have had stinkers in the Finals and it's MJ's ruthless consistent dominance that helps set him apart.

Kobe's play in the WCFs should typically be stacked next to his Finals performances, though, and people should keep in mind that the 08 Celtics were one of the best defenses, you know, ever.

[An Unbiased Fan]

And the amount of hate for Kobe is really REALLY strong on this forum.

Yes players have fans who support the heck outta their player, but damn! I've never seen a player receive so much hate with so much detail as Kobe receives. They discredit him every which way possible, Championships? Well, "Most dominant center" "Most stacked front-court EVAHHH" 81 Points: "Worst defense EVAHHH" Being the best SG for 10+ Years: "Well, he's no MJ and he's a copycat" Consistently one of the best most successful players: "Well, he's got the best franchise in the NBA!"

There's no win with you haters.

The reason for "haters" is because as great as Kobe truly is--his game does have holes and weaknesses but guys like you and Skip fight to the death that he is the perfect player. If you would acknowledge his negatives and then say but I can live with those because of all the good then people wouldnt "hate" so hard. Because for most people its less about "hating" Kobe as much as it is framing his career and game in the proper perspective.

The funny thing is that I don't think Kobe's a perfect player, no one is. My opinion on Kobe is what 99% of people outside of RealGM share. Players, coaches, GMs, media, all think the same things I do.

[d-will8]

Obviously, no individual advanced stat is perfect. However, defending Kobe's ludicrous reputation is difficult in light of the fact that every objective measurement we have for measuring a player's overall value on the basketball court clearly suggests not only that he's not as good as guys like MJ, Shaq, Duncan, and LeBron (and that's just naming a few), but also that he's not even in the same general tier.

You can criticize advanced stats' flaws, but advanced stats are still more objective than the eye test. You can make excuses for Kobe, but MJ played in the triangle too. You can point to Kobe's titles, but a lot of all-star wings would have won titles playing with prime Shaq. You can also make subjective arguments in Kobe's favor, but, without any objective support, I have a hard time putting much stake in such arguments. Ultimately, the notion that Kobe's nipping at MJ's heels or even that he's a clear-cut top ten player vying for a spot in the top 5 is pretty difficult to support.

Kobe's unquestionably a great player who's had a great career, but I'd say he's fairly overrated due to his stylistic similarities to MJ; his ability to capitalize on the public's obsession with scoring, tough shots, and hero ball; and his good fortune in riding Shaq's coattails to three championships. That's not even to mention his good fortune in playing next to a great, but severely underrated big man (Pau) who played a big (if not the biggest) role in Kobe's fourth and fifth championships, but inexplicably gets way less credit for the Lakers' successes than Kobe and way more blame for their failings.

[Doctor MJ]

The funny thing is that I don't think Kobe's a perfect player, no one is. My opinion on Kobe is what 99% of people outside of RealGM share. Players, coaches, GMs, media, all think the same things I do.

You're using a couple different fallacies, hyperbole, and then you follow it up with that last sentence after what you've said about Jordan's one-on-one game?

[MisterWestside]

The funny thing is that I don't think Kobe's a perfect player, no one is. My opinion on Kobe is what 99% of people outside of RealGM share. Players, coaches, GMs, media, all think the same things I do.

Not to put you down here, but this link should be useful to you: http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

[kasino]

I don't like PER and can't understand a winshare
but starting
RS 24.39 12th all-time/PS 23.9 11th all-time
RS 154.3 averaging 11WS per season jumps from 20th to 8th/PS 28 averaging 2.1 then 32.2 going 7th to 5th

now I don't know how WS/48 works it looks like an average, could be wrong
if it is
RS--.194 WS/48
PS--.174 WS/48

now I could be wrong how some of these things works if you know how and see an error of my ways do tell
I do know however mediocre isn't Kobe in any way you spin it

and all his best seasons come without Shaq, safe to say without him would have better personal stats/better individual awards for his younger years and less championship hardware

[Doctor MJ]

The funny thing is that I don't think Kobe's a perfect player, no one is. My opinion on Kobe is what 99% of people outside of RealGM share. Players, coaches, GMs, media, all think the same things I do.

Not to put you down here, but this link should be useful to you: http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

Don't for the argumentum ad populum he used to get us started. 50 million Kobe fans can't be wrong.

[treyve]

O and his good fortune in riding Shaq's coattails to three championships. That's not even to mention his good fortune in playing next to a great, but severely underrated big man (Pau) who played a big (if not the biggest) role in Kobe's fourth and fifth championships, but inexplicably gets way less credit for the Lakers' successes than Kobe and way more blame for their failings.

How can someone put up 22/6/5/2 with elite defense, 29+/7+/6+/2 with elite defense, and 27/6/5/2 with elite defense and be "riding" coattails?

And I like how people act like Pau is some amazing player now, but before Kobe we're talking about a guy with 1 All-Star game, 0 MVP votes, and was swept in every playoff series he played.

Pau before Bryant:

0 MVP votes
0 All-NBA Teams
1 All-Star appearance
Not even regarded as top 5 at his own position.
Not even regarded as a top 15 player.
Swept in PS three straight seasons

Food for though: Gasol with/without net (team efficiency differential) in Mermhis:
2005 -1.4 (!), 26 games missed
2007 -1.6 (!), 23 games missed



Gasol's RAPM:
2002 -0.3 (221st place)
2003 -0.8 (250th)
2004 -0.2 (150th)
2005 +0.2 (137th)
2006 +1.1 (83rd)
2007 -1.3 (313rd)


So again - before LA his not even top100 during those seasons ;]

2005: 50% W-L% with Gasol, 65.4% without Gasol (26 games missed)
2007: 28.8% with, 21.7% without (23)
2008: 25.6% with, 27.9% without (43)

So it's not a fluke, season after season, large sample in every case and Memhis without Gasol was doing as good as with him.

look at his team record with and without him when he missed an extended stretch in 2005:

With Gasol: 28-28
Without Gasol: 17-9



Now we got people saying he played as big a role as Kobe in 09 and 2010 (when he was a top 2 player in the world).

LMAO.

The best perimeter player of his era.

Here are his numbers over nearly a decade:

28.5 PPG/5.8 RPG/5.4 APG/1.8 SPG/0.5 BPG/56% TS

Here are his seasons over this stretch:
29/6/5/2/55% TS
25/6/6/2/55% TS
30/7/6/2/1/55% TS
24/5/5/2/56% TS
28/6/6/1/56% TS
35/5/5/2/56% TS
32/6/5/2/58% TS
28/6/5/2/58% TS
27/5/5/2/56% TS
27/5/5/2/55% TS

Accolades/Accomplishments during this time:
4-Time NBA Champion
6-Time NBA Finalist
16X Player of the Month
8X All-NBA 1st Team
1X All-NBA 2nd Team
7X All-NBA 1st Team Defense
2X All-NBA 2nd Team Defense
9X All-Star
4X All-Star MVP
1X NBA-MVP
2X NBA-Finals MVP

Over this stretch he had:
24X 50+ point games
5X 60+ point games
105 40+ point games

Some of his sickest stretches:
9 straight 40+ point games (2003)
13 straight 35+ point games (2003)
4 straight 45+ point games (2006)
4 straight 50+ point games (2007)
Averaged 40+ PPG in four different months
Averaged 37/6/5/59% TS post All-Star Break (2007)
81 pts
62 pts in three quarters
8 different games where he recorded 50+ points through three quarters of play

Some of his best playoff runs:
2001: 29 PPG/7 RPG/6 APG/2 SPG/56% TS. NBA Championship. Lakers go 15-1.
2002: 27 PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/52% TS. NBA Championship.
2008: 30 PPG/6 RPG/6 APG/2 SPG/58% TS. NBA Finals
2009: 30 PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/57% TS. NBA Championship
2010: 29 PPG/6 RPG/6 APG/2 SPG/57% TS. NBA Championship


january 2006.

45/7/4/2
48/10/3/2
50/8/8/2
45/10/5/2
41/4/3/1
38/7/7/2
37/5/3/1
51/9/4/2
37/2/3/1
81/6/3/2
30/8/5/2
39/6/4/2
40/4/3/3

look at his game-logs in late 2007.

65/7/4/1
50/6/4/2
60/5/4/2
50/7/2/1
43/9/2/1
53/2/2/1
39/4/4/2
29/7/3/2
46/6/5/1
34/7/4/2
23/10/5/1
50/9/2/1
50/8/3/2
34/7/6/2

feb 2003.
40/8/4
38/5/4/2
42/4/4/2
35/7/2/2
46/6/4/2
42/5/5/2
51/3/3/2
44/6/4/2
40/5/4/2
52/8/7/2
40/6/2/1/1
40/7/2/2
41/5/5/2


April 2006:
43/6/4/2
43/6/3/1
42/8/21
51/5/5/2
38/5/5/3
50/6/5/1
43/8/5/3
35/5/5/2

Easily top 10 ever. Get mad bitches.

[treyve]

You need to chill.

I didn't come in here saying Kobe was terrible. The OP asked essentially, "Kobe's known as a Top 10 all-time guy, but statistical measurements consistently show him to be be great but not quite that great. What gives?" All I said was "Yup, Kobe's outstanding be he is a tad overrated because of a couple things people fixate on."

For you to come in guns blazing, blasting me, while quoting stats that don't even rebut the OP, is just silly. Calm down.

And those "statistical measurements" also say Bird/Hakeem/Duncan shouldn't be top 10 either. They also say Stockton>your boy Nash, Robinson>>Hakeem,Dirk>Bird, etc etc.
'
So no, he's not overrated at all.

Try again.

I'll respond again here just for the benefit of others.





He simply isn't Jordan.

Meanwhile, Kobe's a better shooter, and a much better shooter from distance, and in terms of all the fundamental moves Jordan had, Kobe's got'em too. These are great, great things to have, but they just aren't a replacement for some of Jordan's subtle gifts. And so Kobe's not an inferior version of Jordan, he's just a different player, with different strengths and weaknesses.

Yeah, and nobody thinks he's as good as Jordan, so what's your point?

It's funny because most of the biggest "stat-geeks" on this forum have Kobe all-time somewhere between 10-12.

And non-Laker fans have somewhere 8-12.

Which is right around where everyone else has him.

So where is the overrating?

lmao.

[An Unbiased Fan]

The funny thing is that I don't think Kobe's a perfect player, no one is. My opinion on Kobe is what 99% of people outside of RealGM share. Players, coaches, GMs, media, all think the same things I do.

You're using a couple different fallacies, hyperbole, and then you follow it up with that last sentence after what you've said about Jordan's one-on-one game?

What did I say about MJ's 1on1 game?

[Doctor MJ]

The funny thing is that I don't think Kobe's a perfect player, no one is. My opinion on Kobe is what 99% of people outside of RealGM share. Players, coaches, GMs, media, all think the same things I do.

You're using a couple different fallacies, hyperbole, and then you follow it up with that last sentence after what you've said about Jordan's one-on-one game?

What did I say about MJ's 1on1 game?

LOL, I could have beat MJ back in his Wizard days, no doubt.

You refused to make any statements about Kobe it must be pointed out though.

So yeah, whenever you get into this shtick relating to your name, you have serious problems with credibility. You have a very clear perspective that is not simply "the norm". Frankly, I know enough to believe in any real "norm" because there's so much disagreement everywhere, but to the extent there are people who line up with the mainstream without seeming to have any particular fixations, you're not topping the list.

[Doctor MJ]

Yeah, and nobody thinks he's as good as Jordan, so what's your point?

It's funny because most of the biggest "stat-geeks" on this forum have Kobe all-time somewhere between 10-12.

And non-Laker fans have somewhere 8-12.

Which is right around where everyone else has him.

So where is the overrating?

lmao.

If we're all agreeing, then why is there so much animosity?

C'mon man. I live in LA. I listen to sports radio. There is a significant contingent who actually thinks Kobe's the GOAT. There are plenty of others who call him #2 all-time. I'm glad you can see that's absurd, but then I don't get why you have such anger issues with the people who rate him the same place you do.

[kasino]

there are people calling Bird/Magic the GOAT
some taking Russell/Wilt as a joke
I don't see you in a up roar for any of those

[treyve]

If we're all agreeing, then why is there so much animosity?

C'mon man. I live in LA. I listen to sports radio. There is a significant contingent who actually thinks Kobe's the GOAT. There are plenty of others who call him #2 all-time. I'm glad you can see that's absurd, but then I don't get why you have such anger issues with the people who rate him the same place you do.

So he's overrated because some clowns on talk shows think he's the GOAT? LMAO. What kind of logic is that?

MOST Kobe fans have right around 8-12 all-time. Which is right around where most non-biased people have him.

Which is right around where most published lists have him.

Which is right around where the media seems to place him.

Which is right around where most people, including the stat-geeks on this forum, have him.

LOL. Again, where is the "overrating".

You people make stuff up just to attack the guy and his fans. Classic straw-man arguments.

And it's hilarious that you'd jumping on people for calling Kobe the GOAT, but when someone says that Kobe was "coat-taling" Shaq or that Pau was as important in 09 and 2010 you don't say crap. Hilarious. You're so obsessed with appearing unbiased you've become a hater!

LOL

[Doctor MJ]

there are people calling Bird/Magic the GOAT
some taking Russell/Wilt as a joke
I don't see you in a up roar for any of those

What "uproar" are you referring to? I didn't start this thread, I'm just responding to a curious phenomenon someone else is observing that I'm well aware of.

Also if you haven't seen me get into in threads involving those other guys, well then you simply haven't been paying attention.

[treyve]

there are people calling Bird/Magic the GOAT
some taking Russell/Wilt as a joke
I don't see you in a up roar for any of those

I've heard far more people call Bird the GOAT than Kobe and his advanced numbers are worse than Bryants.

Guess Bird is overrated too.

Hakeem is considered top 10 ever. Top 5 peak ever.

His advanced stats are "mediocre" and nowhere near as good as Robinson, Shaq, Jordan and hes often compared to them. He didn't even lead his team in WS48 in 1995! HURR DURR!

Guess he's overrated too!LOL

[Doctor MJ]

If we're all agreeing, then why is there so much animosity?

C'mon man. I live in LA. I listen to sports radio. There is a significant contingent who actually thinks Kobe's the GOAT. There are plenty of others who call him #2 all-time. I'm glad you can see that's absurd, but then I don't get why you have such anger issues with the people who rate him the same place you do.

So he's overrated because some clowns on talk shows think he's the GOAT? LMAO. What kind of logic is that?

MOST Kobe fans have right around 8-12 all-time. Which is right around where most non-biased people have him.

Which is right around where most published lists have him.

Which is right around where the media seems to place him.

Which is right around where most people, including the stat-geeks on this forum, have him.

LOL. Again, where is the "overrating".

You people make stuff up just to attack the guy and his fans. Classic straw-man arguments.

And it's hilarious that you'd jumping on people for calling Kobe the GOAT, but when someone says that Kobe was "coat-taling" Shaq or that Pau was as important in 09 and 2010 you don't say crap. Hilarious. You're so obsessed with appearing unbiased you've become a hater!

LOL

It's not that. To the extent I have some sort of bias it's due to my contrarian streak. I live in LA, where there's going to be a bias in a certain direction. I respond to the bias with an opposing force, and then get in the habit of repeating that action when I see similar things happen in other places. This is not normal behavior for any group of people, so lumping me in with others is probably going to just confuse you.

I still don't understand what it is you want though. When I answer someone else's question about a phenomenon I'm observed as well, I suppose you think this is all a charade so that we can blast Kobe in some new convoluted way?

I'd say you've got to get over yourself. Your behavior is reasonable by any stretch of the imagination, but it's particularly crazy to go agro over other people's opinions on a player when in the end you agree on their ranking.