#16 Highest Peak of All Time (Robinson '95 wins)

[Doctor MJ]

Kobe Bryant '08 has been enshrined.

Lightning25 has been added to the panel. (Congrats!)

Also of note: I'm moving us back to 3 day voting periods because I want to make sure we aren't rushed. However, I'm going to add in a "mercy rule": After 2 days, if a player gets a 5 vote lead, he gets the win. Might be some more tinkering I do here.

[C-izMe]

I'm voting Wade 09. If Kobe 08 is in this should be the next logical choice (unless PS matters THAT much to you guys).

I'm kinda not buying the DRob portability, or the West impact to be amazing enough for me to take Wade's votes. IMO Wade was just as good a basketball player as Lebron from 09 to 10 (doesn't mean he had more impressive seasons though). He might not fit in many offenses but in the (almost) worst case scenario (on the Heat with Lebron) for fit he still finds a way to dominate in a way that at many times surpasses Lebron (and still has many calling him top 5).

[Expert-Sizzle]

I'm thinking 06 Wade should be the next pick.

He had a great regular season.
26 / 6 / 7apg / 1.9spg / 0.8bpg on 50%FG / 58%TS ||| 115ORTG / 103DRTG + .240-WSP48
_______________________________________

His 2006 playoff run was really incredible.
--------------
Total run : 29 / 6 / 6apg / 2.2spg / 1.1bpg on 50%FG / 59%TS ||| 115ORTG / 100DRTG + .240-WSP48

ECFinals : 27 / 5 / 6apg / 1.8spg / 1.5bpg on 62%FG / 68%TS

Finals : 35 / 8 / 4apg / 2.7spg / 1.0bpg on 47%FG / 57%TS
Finals (4 wins) : 39 / 8 / 4apg / 3spg / 1.0bpg on 51%FG / 62%TS

If playoffs don't matter then 09 or 2010 Wade are also solid options.

Really didn't understand the logic (or see many deep arguments) for putting Kobe above him but since thats done Wade should get in immediately.

[Lightning25]

Thanks for adding me on the voting panel Doctor MJ! I'm glad on board.

I think chances are that I vote for Wade for this ranking. My only issue is which Wade. I am starting to re-consider whether it should be 2006 Wade or 2009 Wade.

One could argue that Wade was injured in the 2009 playoffs, but another could argue that Wade was just simply love in with his jump shot or maybe even fatigued. When you are fatigued, you can't get to the basket at will anymore like you can at a regular basis. It is one of my biggest criticisms of Wade and that's that I'm not really sure if he can carry a team for both the regular season and post-season like Kobe and Lebron can.

As for my statement about his jump shot, Wade took a lot more 3s that season and he also made a lot more 3s. A lot of players usually end up being overconfident with their jump shot and end up taking more jump shots than they should and one could argue that Wade fell in love with his jump shot and become overconfident in it in 2009.

[JordansBulls]

What Wade did against Detroit and Dallas in 2006 is what makes me pick him that year over any other year.

Between these guys for me

--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
Moses Malone 1983: 25.1, 0.248 -----25.7, 0.260 (13 playoff games, title)
Dwyane Wade 2006: 27.6, 0.239-------26.9, 0.240 (23 playoff games, title)




http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/ ... ormances-1

2006 WADE'S STATS
Points per game: 34.7
Boards per game: 7.8
Steals per game: 2.7
PER: 33.8


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2 ... nces-11-20

MOSES MALONE FINALS STATS
Points per game: 25.8
Boards per game: 18.0
Blocks per game: 1.5
PER: 26.0



VOTE: Dwyane Wade 2006. This guy carried the Heat this season and his production was clearly superior to any of his teammates this season and then to top it off had a historic Conference Finals (27/5/5 on 61% FG) and NBA Finals.

[therealbig3]

I'm going with 03 T-Mac again, I've already explained why. He's just an offensive monster at his peak. Elite scorer (volume and efficiency), super-low TO rate, and excellent passing and court vision at his position. I also think he scales to good teams better than recently enshrined Kobe and Wade. He was excellent off the ball and in the post, he was an excellent midrange (and 3pt) shooter, and like I said, he was an excellent (and willing) passer.

I also think he was a good defensive player when he was able to focus on it, like we saw in Houston.

Vote: 03 Tracy McGrady

[therealbig3]

And with regards to what I said about Robinson vs Amare offensively before:

I'm looking at their skillsets. Robinson was NOT a consistent midrange shooter. That's actually one of the reasons why his play fell off so much in the playoffs against good teams: he didn't really have consistent go-to offense other than using his athleticism in face-up and attack the rim, which didn't work against better playoff defenses.

At least with Amare, he has a very solid midrange jumper, and imo, he's a better mover off-ball on cuts and the PnR. Robinson is a better passer, but he's not great at it by any means, and imo, it's not really a large enough advantage.

So yeah, I think I'd take Amare offensively...and it's not an insult to Robinson at all. Amare is one of the best offensive big men ever (at his best). The reason why he's not that great overall is because his defense is almost as bad as his offense is good.

According to ORAPM since 05 for Amare:

05: +2.5
07: +1.7
08: +3.1
09: -0.5
10: +0.6
11: +2.3

He had really down years offensively in 09 (which was a weird year for Phoenix, with Shaq and Porter, and Amare was injured) and 10. He was also coming back from microfracture surgery in 07. But he went back to pretty good offensive impact in 2011, without Nash.

For reference sakes, his ORAPM when he was healthy and the clear #2 (or #1 in 2011) in the offense puts him up there with guys like Duncan and KG, and the only one who's clearly better over the years is Dirk. And I would take all of those guys over D-Rob offensively too.

[drza]

I'm going with 03 T-Mac again, I've already explained why. He's just an offensive monster at his peak. Elite scorer (volume and efficiency), super-low TO rate, and excellent passing and court vision at his position. I also think he scales to good teams better than recently enshrined Kobe and Wade. He was excellent off the ball and in the post, he was an excellent midrange (and 3pt) shooter, and like I said, he was an excellent (and willing) passer.

I also think he was a good defensive player when he was able to focus on it, like we saw in Houston.

Vote: 03 Tracy McGrady

For what it's worth, I wrote a short blog back at the end of 2009 where I compared what I considered the four best "solo missions" of the decade, with on great player and a poor supporting cast. I included '09 Wade, '06 Kobe and '03 TMac. My top choice among the three wings was TMac '03.

http://rotosynthesis.rotowire.com/Best- ... BD1615.htm

I haven't decided where I stand a few years later...though Kobe's already in and I'm still lobbying for Robinson, so I suppose I could conceivably miss out on the much anticipated wing debate altogether...

[therealbig3]

Good read drza, thanks for posting that.

[Dr Positivity]

edit - I'm changing my vote to West 66

Vote 2010 Wade

I feel strongly Wade is the best player. He is right there for marking off all the checkmarks for a dominant perimeter player. Unstoppable penetration ability and finishing, passing to drive/dish to open players, ability to hit shots to open up his game, extremely strong defense for a wing player. I think West vs Wade is an interesting question because of West's shooting vs Wade's explosive athleticism - I tend to think driving into the paint as much as possible does more for an offense by breaking down the defense and forcing help, which is the same reason I like prime Wade more than prime Kobe.

2010 Wade is clearly better in the playoffs than 2009 Wade. That's why I'm voting for the 2010 version over 2009. 2006 I don't trust Wade as much defensively. 2011 I can't justify voting for because Wade and Lebron both felt like their individual impact was diminished while the kinks were being worked out

[Josephpaul]

Elgin Baylor 62 avg 38.3 Pts and 18.6 Boards with 4.6 ast.
In the playoffs he avg 38.6 17.7 boards and took Bill russell all the way to game 7, It considered to be one the greatest finals match ups of all time. A main reason its over looked is because of Wilts Great season. In his own right its deserves to be in the 16 spot i think.

Vote 62 Baylor

[ardee]

Elgin Baylor 62 avg 38.3 Pts and 18.6 Boards with 4.6 ast.
In the playoffs he avg 38.6 17.7 boards and took Bill russell all the way to game 7, It considered to be one the greatest finals match ups of all time. A main reason its over looked is because of Wilts Great season. In his own right its deserves to be in the 16 spot i think.

Vote 62 Baylor

He played 49 games and had a TS% of 49...

[ardee]

Hmm... Three candidates here. West, Robinson and to a lesser extent Wade.

I'm leaning West, because his offensive game was flawless. He was the best jump shooter of his time, could play either of the guard spots (when he became the primary playmaker for the Lakers he was leading the league in assists), and very portable. He could play off Baylor when needed, but when Baylor got injured he became the focal point easily.

For now I'm looking at '66 West, let's wait and see the discussion.

[therealbig3]

BTW, a lot of was made of the fact that KG hounded T-Mac in one regular season matchup in the 03 season, and forced T-Mac into a 6-15 shooting night, and that was kind of used against T-Mac as further "proof" that he couldn't play well against elite defenders (and to be clear, it was the 3rd game of the season)...but how come no mention of this game, which was the 2nd matchup of the season that year between the Magic and the Wolves, and T-Mac goes for 30 points on 60% TS, primarily being guarded by KG?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVPlgafOTXo[/youtube]

[PTB Fan]

Elgin Baylor 62 avg 38.3 Pts and 18.6 Boards with 4.6 ast.
In the playoffs he avg 38.6 17.7 boards and took Bill russell all the way to game 7, It considered to be one the greatest finals match ups of all time. A main reason its over looked is because of Wilts Great season. In his own right its deserves to be in the 16 spot i think.

Vote 62 Baylor

He's a very good choice IMO.

He's next for me after Moses.

[Josephpaul]

Elgin Baylor 62 avg 38.3 Pts and 18.6 Boards with 4.6 ast.
In the playoffs he avg 38.6 17.7 boards and took Bill russell all the way to game 7, It considered to be one the greatest finals match ups of all time. A main reason its over looked is because of Wilts Great season. In his own right its deserves to be in the 16 spot i think.

Vote 62 Baylor

He played 49 games and had a TS% of 49...

Bill walton missed games and his peak was voted in. He shooting at the leauge avg at the time as well.

[Lightning25]

One thing to consider when deciding between 2006 Wade and 2009 Wade is how much better did Wade get from playing with Shaq in 2006?

Like Charles Barkley said, a large reason why the Heat beat the Mavericks in the finals was because their bigs Shaq, Zo, Haslem, etc. completely beat up and dominated the Mavericks front-court.

I agree with Chuck on that statement and I also want to add that Shaq was also huge in the 2006 finals despite the numbers he produced because he helped the Heat constantly get into the bonus and help provide a ton of FTs for his team especially Wade who had an abnormal amount of FTs in the series.

I also thought Shaq helped give Wade easy points too by being a great passer out of the post and Wade being a tremendous off-ball/cutter. He wasn't going to get too many of those type of points playing with Jeramine O'Neal or Shawn Marion, not that he didn't get any, just not as much because they weren't the post presence or threat that Diesel was.

In addition, I find it odd that 09 Wade was a better defender than 06 Wade when 09 Wade had even more responsibility and baggage to carry for that Heat team than 06 Wade did.

I'm leaning towards 09 Wade because I felt like Shaq made Wade's life a lot easier in 2006 and because of Wade's overall improvement as a player. I think I would conclude saying Wade had a better overall season in 2006 but Wade was a better overall player in 2009. We are voting and determining greater peaks here, not greater seasons, right?

If someone wouldn't mind, could someone pull up Wade's stats w/o Shaq in 2006? I know the Heat didn't play very well when Shaq was out, they were 10-13, but I'm curious to see what Wade's numbers were anyways.

[Zasterror]

I always felt that 2006 Wade was him at his most successful but 09 Wade was his peak as an athlete and player. His game was literally flawless; even his 3-point shot was looking respectable at that time.

[Zasterror]

I always felt that 2006 Wade was him at his most successful but 09 Wade was his peak as an athlete and player. His game was literally flawless; even his 3-point shot was looking respectable at that time.

[PTB Fan]

We need posts on Charles Barkley. He had several sick seasons. He's not getting the respect here.