RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread

[ardee]

For some to average 30-5-4 in the Playoffs in their 17th season, longevity wise he's arguably only behind Kareem and Malone.

He is still well behind Shaq also.

Shaq : 11 Super-Star Seasons and 5-6 All-Star level Seasons
Kobe : 4-5 Super-Star Seasons and 8 All-Star level Seasons

Overall
Shaq : 16-17
Kobe : 12-13

Where do you get these numbers from

Kobe was a superstar from 01-03 and 06-12. Live with it.

Shaq was a superstar in 94-95, 98-05. I can't count 96 and 97, not when he was missing 30 games a season.

So 10=10.

Kobe and Shaq are very close on the all-time list, you can't go wrong with ranking either higher than the other, but acting like there's some kind of massive gap between them is plain silly.

[ardee]

Out of sheer curiosity, could people post their top 15 lists here? A lot of people were voting the same guy for 4-5 threads in a row at times, and didn't get to show us their thoughts on other players.

Mine:

1. 1967 Chamberlain
2. 1991 Jordan
3. 2000 Shaq
4. 1986 Bird
5. 1987 Magic
6. 1965 Russell
7. 2009 LeBron
8. 1977 Kareem
9. 1994 Olajuwon
10. 2003 Duncan
11. 2004 Garnett
12. 1977 Walton
13. 1976 Erving
14. 1963 Robertson

[Dr Positivity]

67 Wilt
91 Jordan
95 Hakeem
65 Russell
00 Shaq
77 Kareem
03 Duncan
12 Lebron
86 Bird
87 Magic
04 Garnett
77 Walton
10 Wade
63 Oscar

Don't feel great about who the 15th guy is after that list... toyed with Barkley but I'll switch it to 66 West

Dr J is the only ranking I'm not a fan of. I think he has a lot of flaws in his skill game that the NBA did a better job of exposing

[therealbig3]

1. 91 Jordan
2. 00 Shaq
3. 65 Russell
4. 09 LeBron
5. 86 Bird
6. 87 Magic
7. 67 Wilt
8. 77 Kareem
9. 94 Hakeem
10. 03 Duncan
11. 04 Garnett
12. 77 Walton
13. 76 Erving
14. 64 Oscar
15. 03 T-Mac

I just recently moved T-Mac up a bit, but realistically, I'd go with Dirk, T-Mac, Wade, Kobe, or West at that spot.

[ElGee]

Hey Ardee, I'm going to add a confidence score in parens for how comfortable I am with my assessment of each player. Not necessarily his ordinal ranking, but my confidence in how I'm rating him in isolation. I'm not a huge fan of naked lists, as to me the value (and even fun) is in the "why," so at least this provides some a little food for thought...

1. 91 Jordan (4)
2. 00 Shaq (4)

3. 86 Bird (4)
4. 64 Russell (2)
5. 67 Wilt (2)

6. 94 Olajuwon (4)
7. 04 Garnett (3)
8. 02 Duncan (3)
9. 12 LeBron (3)
10. 87 Magic (4)

11. 77 Walton (2)
12. 77 Kareem (4)
13. 76 Erving (2)

14. 94 Robinson (3)
15. 10 Wade (4)
16. 68 West (3)
17. 64 Oscar (3)
18. 90 Barkley (3)

19. 98 Malone (3)
20. 08 Bryant (5)

If every voting member posted this list, and we did a Borda Count ex-post facto, what would the top-13 then look like?

[thebottomline]

I'm not a voter but I've been following this project since the beginning and 67 Wilt is much less impressive to me after taking a closer look at him. I usually had him top 3 with MJ and Shaq, then I favored Russell over him at #3, and in the #4 thread I kinda argued for Wilt, but now I have him at #11. I went back and read some arguments and was convinced I was overrating him.

His supporting cast deserves a ton of credit. +4.8 SRS, +2.7 ORtg and -1.6 DRtg without him in 1969? That's a really freaking good cast. Then you consider defensively he wasn't at his best in 67 (looks better in 64 and 68), and then offensively, how much credit does he deserve really? I mean, per 75 possessions he averaged 9 FGA and 15.7 pts. Granted, he was uber efficient (64 TS%) and his playmaking was great (5 asts/75). But GOAT-tier offensive impact this is not (the Sixers offense was +5.3). Not even close IMO. I see him as pretty even with Walton, very similar roles, just Wilt was better offensively and worse defensively.

I also think a little higher of Bird's peak and a little less of Magic's peak now. Being the only guy in the top 13-15 without any significant defensive impact hurts Magic on my list.

Not a voter, but...

91 Jordan
00 Shaq

64 Russell

09 LeBron
86 Bird
93 Hakeem

04 Garnett
03 Duncan
77 Kareem
87 Magic
67 Wilt
77 Walton

76 Erving
08 Kobe
09 Wade

Those last two are tentative, need to think about it more because I can see a lot of guys in those 14 and 15 spots.

[ardee]

Hey Ardee, I'm going to add a confidence score in parens for how comfortable I am with my assessment of each player. Not necessarily his ordinal ranking, but my confidence in how I'm rating him in isolation. I'm not a huge fan of naked lists, as to me the value (and even fun) is in the "why," so at least this provides some a little food for thought...

1. 91 Jordan (4)
2. 00 Shaq (4)

3. 86 Bird (4)
4. 64 Russell (2)
5. 67 Wilt (2)

6. 94 Olajuwon (4)
7. 04 Garnett (3)
8. 02 Duncan (3)
9. 12 LeBron (3)
10. 87 Magic (4)

11. 77 Walton (2)
12. 77 Kareem (4)
13. 76 Erving (2)

14. 94 Robinson (3)
15. 10 Wade (4)
16. 68 West (3)
17. 64 Oscar (3)
18. 90 Barkley (3)

19. 98 Malone (3)
20. 08 Bryant (5)

If every voting member posted this list, and we did a Borda Count ex-post facto, what would the top-13 then look like?

Indeed that would be interesting. Not ashamed to admit there are probably a lot of changes in my list at this point, i.e. Bird over Magic, Russell higher, maybe Garnett over Duncan.

Really wish we had hashed out that last one. More and more I look at it, Garnett was having a higher offensive impact at his zenith.

[ardee]

I'm not a voter but I've been following this project since the beginning and 67 Wilt is much less impressive to me after taking a closer look at him. I usually had him top 3 with MJ and Shaq, then I favored Russell over him at #3, and in the #4 thread I kinda argued for Wilt, but now I have him at #11. I went back and read some arguments and was convinced I was overrating him.

His supporting cast deserves a ton of credit. +4.8 SRS, +2.7 ORtg and -1.6 DRtg without him in 1969? That's a really freaking good cast. Then you consider defensively he wasn't at his best in 67 (looks better in 64 and 68), and then offensively, how much credit does he deserve really? I mean, per 75 possessions he averaged 9 FGA and 15.7 pts. Granted, he was uber efficient (64 TS%) and his playmaking was great (5 asts/75). But GOAT-tier offensive impact this is not (the Sixers offense was +5.3). Not even close IMO. I see him as pretty even with Walton, very similar roles, just Wilt was better offensively and worse defensively.

I also think a little higher of Bird's peak and a little less of Magic's peak now. Being the only guy in the top 13-15 without any significant defensive impact hurts Magic on my list.

Not a voter, but...

91 Jordan
00 Shaq

64 Russell

09 LeBron
86 Bird
93 Hakeem

04 Garnett
03 Duncan
77 Kareem
87 Magic
67 Wilt
77 Walton

76 Erving
08 Kobe
09 Wade

Those last two are tentative, need to think about it more because I can see a lot of guys in those 14 and 15 spots.

That's a flawed line of thinking. The lack of drop off the Sixers had from '68 to '69 was indicative about Wilt's 68 season, not his '67 season.

[nikomCH]

This project is the worst thing to ever happen to Kobe's ATL rank The whole idea that he should be a lock to be the 10th or 11th guy is now proven to be a myth. If KG, Oscar, West, Erving, etc. are trouncing him in peak, he definitely shouldn't be penciled in that high. I've had KG over him for a while but I feel pretty strongly about putting Oscar over him from now on too

That's pretty god awful logic. Even if they did peak higher than Kobe it's barely much of a difference. Certainly not enough to make up for the fact that Kobe has been playing high quality basketball for 16 seasons and still has a lot of juice left.

[thebottomline]

That's a flawed line of thinking. The lack of drop off the Sixers had from '68 to '69 was indicative about Wilt's 68 season, not his '67 season.

I was comparing 67 and 69 though. ElGee's breakdown of this, which I missed the first time around, is what later convinced me:
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1198314&start=15#p32866734

I admit I feel like I've gone from overrating Wilt to perhaps underrating him but I have a hard time comfortably putting him above the others on my list.

[Lightning25]

I'll be starting to vote at #16, so here would be my top 15 as of now

I'll break it down by tiers instead...

Tier 1
1991 Jordan
1967 Wilt
2000 Shaq
1994 Hakeem

Tier 2
1977 Kareem
1965 Russell
2012 Lebron
1986 Bird
1987 Magic

Tier 3
2008 Kobe
2003 Duncan
2009 Wade
2004 Garnett
1977 Walton
1976 Erving

I don't have a set top 15 yet but it would look something like this...

1. 1991 Jordan
2. 1967 Wilt
3. 2000 Shaq
4. 1994 Hakeem
5. 1965 Russell
6. 1977 Kareem
7. 2012 Lebron
8. 1986 Bird
9. 1987 Magic
10. 1977 Walton
11. 2003 Duncan
12. 2008 Kobe
13. 2009 Wade
14. 2004 Garnett
15. 1976 Erving

[ardee]

Doc, I'm interesting to see your list until now.

[bastillon]

so tough... they are so close, most of them, I could literally change my mind every minute.

1.Russell 65
2.Jordan 91
3.Hakeem 93

that's my top-3. I feel like Kareem-Walton, Bird-Magic, LeBron-Erving, KG-Duncan are just too close to make a definite ranking. I'm pretty sure though they're all better than Wilt 67 though. really unimpressed by that season considering that Russell was injured in the postseason, Sixers were so much more stacked than any other team in the league that it's not even funny (if you took away the best player from each team, Sixers wouldn't have a serious competition) and Wilt was a huge disappointment in prior and following seasons. but then again, everybody seems to think Wilt vs Russell should be legitimate debate, I'm pretty confident Wilt was not a better player than Oscar or West and he was at Thurmond's level in terms of impact (better offense, worse defense).

[Josephpaul]

im kinda shocked wilt 62 didnt make it 50.4 and 25.7 and what blows my mind wilt didnt even win the mvp that year.

[ardee]

im kinda shocked wilt 62 didnt make it 50.4 and 25.7 and what blows my mind wilt didnt even win the mvp that year.

We're not voting GOAT level numbers, my friend, we're voting GOAT level play.

[ardee]

so tough... they are so close, most of them, I could literally change my mind every minute.

1.Russell 65
2.Jordan 91
3.Hakeem 93

that's my top-3. I feel like Kareem-Walton, Bird-Magic, LeBron-Erving, KG-Duncan are just too close to make a definite ranking. I'm pretty sure though they're all better than Wilt 67 though. really unimpressed by that season considering that Russell was injured in the postseason, Sixers were so much more stacked than any other team in the league that it's not even funny (if you took away the best player from each team, Sixers wouldn't have a serious competition) and Wilt was a huge disappointment in prior and following seasons. but then again, everybody seems to think Wilt vs Russell should be legitimate debate, I'm pretty confident Wilt was not a better player than Oscar or West and he was at Thurmond's level in terms of impact (better offense, worse defense).

1. There is no evidence Russell was injured that postseason, it has been debated enough and no one has been able to find a single article of evidence.

2. He was the MVP the previous season as well as the next season. If that's a 'huge disappointment to you', well...

[ThaRegul8r]

im kinda shocked wilt 62 didnt make it 50.4 and 25.7 and what blows my mind wilt didnt even win the mvp that year.

That wasn't even Wilt's best season, so I don't why that would be expected to make it.

[ThaRegul8r]

By the way, it seems that as everything was loading, I ended up accidentally clicking the "And 1" button instead of the quote button as I had intended. How do I subtract my "And 1," or is that even possible? I did not mean to +1 it, and wish it removed.

[Josephpaul]

im kinda shocked wilt 62 didnt make it 50.4 and 25.7 and what blows my mind wilt didnt even win the mvp that year.

That wasn't even Wilt's best season, so I don't why that would be expected to make it.

statically it was

[ardee]

im kinda shocked wilt 62 didnt make it 50.4 and 25.7 and what blows my mind wilt didnt even win the mvp that year.

That wasn't even Wilt's best season, so I don't why that would be expected to make it.

statically it was

If everyone's best season was their best statistical season then we'd be voting for '88 Jordan, '90 Olajuwon, '72 Jabbar, '85 Bird, etc....

I'm not sure what you're trying to say when you say that we should have voted '62 Wilt in because it was his best statistical season.