#16 Highest Peak of All Time (Robinson '95 wins)

[MisterWestside]

2009 Wade's post-season was not even close to being as bad as Dirk's 2007 post-season. Dirk's peak was not 2007, it was either 2011 or 2006, maybe even 2009.

Don't agree with your ho-humming of Dirk '07 because he was crappy (by his standards) against the Warriors. He was the MVP that season and he played like one.

He was put into a superior team dynamic in 2011, and that's what helped the Mavs win the title. He wasn't on another level offensively that season.

[therealbig3]

As pointed out in the last thread, Tmac did beat up a lot of bad teams and had a huge drop off when he played against good teams.

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Player              Year    ba     aa    Pace  adj_ba adj_aa  aa/ba
Michael Jordan      1991   25.85  24.64  94.3   27.41  26.13  0.953
LeBron James        2009   24.46  22.77  88.3   27.70  25.79  0.931
Dwyane Wade         2009   23.40  20.86  89.3   26.20  23.36  0.891
Shaquille O'Neal    2000   23.84  20.72  92.6   25.75  22.38  0.869
Magic Johnson       1987   24.92  22.39  101.4  24.58  22.08  0.898
David Robinson      1994   27.21  19.71  90.0   30.23  21.90  0.724
Larry Bird          1986   20.94  21.79  100.7  20.79  21.64  1.041
Dirk Nowitzki       2007   19.09  19.14  90.0   21.21  21.27  1.003
Kevin Garnett       2004   20.42  18.74  89.1   22.92  21.03  0.918
Kobe Bryant         2006   21.42  19.12  91.0   23.54  21.01  0.893
Hakeem Olajuwon     1994   20.99  19.71  93.9   22.35  20.99  0.939
Tracy McGrady       2003   24.21  19.38  92.7   26.12  20.91  0.800
Tim Duncan          2003   20.55  18.08  90.2   22.78  20.04  0.880


He maintained 80% of his production against good teams, while Kobe maintained 89%...but as you can see, 80% T-Mac=89% Kobe. Just because T-Mac fell off more, doesn't mean he's worse, because he's starting off at a higher level.

Wade is better against better defenses than either of them. But I have no idea why this keeps getting ignored about T-Mac in 03...his supporting cast sucked, and neither Wade nor Kobe had it as bad as T-Mac did in that regard. It's easier for better teams to slow down a great player the weaker his supporting cast is. If T-Mac played with better talent, his production isn't dropping off so much.

[The Infamous1]

I'm very critical of Tmac but the 03' Magic were one of the worst supporting casts ever for a superstar

[Lightning25]

Wade is better against better defenses than either of them. But I have no idea why this keeps getting ignored about T-Mac in 03...his supporting cast sucked, and neither Wade nor Kobe had it as bad as T-Mac did in that regard. It's easier for better teams to slow down a great player the weaker his supporting cast is. If T-Mac played with better talent, his production isn't dropping off so much.

All of their supporting casts were equally terrible. There is no separation between how bad their teammates were because they all had it bad.

Tmac did have the weakest competition though based on how horrible his conference was. Kobe probably had the toughest since he played out West.

Plus, as you already outlined, Tmac flat out struggled as soon as Prince started guarding him. The stats that you showed in the other thread are not in favor for McGrady, they are in favor against him.

[therealbig3]

Wade is better against better defenses than either of them. But I have no idea why this keeps getting ignored about T-Mac in 03...his supporting cast sucked, and neither Wade nor Kobe had it as bad as T-Mac did in that regard. It's easier for better teams to slow down a great player the weaker his supporting cast is. If T-Mac played with better talent, his production isn't dropping off so much.

All of their supporting casts were equally terrible. There is no separation between how bad their teammates were because they all had it bad.

Tmac did have the weakest competition though based on how horrible his conference was. Kobe probably had the toughest since he played out West.

Plus, as you already outlined, Tmac flat out struggled as soon as Prince started guarding him. The stats that you showed in the other thread are not in favor for McGrady, they are in favor against him.

There's varying degrees of bad. McGrady undoubtedly had it worse than either of them.

The stats I showed are not in favor and are not against him. They show that yes his shooting didn't stay the same, but he didn't get shut down by Prince, and it was moreso the Pistons defense that ended up slowing him down in the last 3 games...in addition to the fact that his teammates were useless.

He was at 49.1% TS after Prince started guarding him, but that was brought down severely by one blowout game which the Pistons won by 30+. Context is important...that's a severe outlier, blowout games tend to do one of two things for a superstar: they either put up huge numbers that are worthless, or they put up terrible numbers that are pretty much an aberration. Outside of that game 5, T-Mac was at 53.4% TS against Prince (which was above league average).

I also pointed out how T-Mac's reputation for struggling against elite defenders isn't warranted at all, since he lit up KG, Christie, Kidd, Jefferson, and Martin when he played against the Wolves, Kings, and Nets. The only perimeter defender he's legitimately struggled against consistently was Artest, who everyone has struggled against.

And the competition favors T-Mac. The 03 Pistons were a better defensive squad than the 09 Hawks or the 06/07 Suns.

[therealbig3]

Also, I think T-Mac can scale to good teams better than Wade. Replacing Wade with prime T-Mac on the current Heat would result in a better squad, imo, because of T-Mac's versatility on offense.

[Lightning25]

There's varying degrees of bad. McGrady undoubtedly had it worse than either of them.

Feel free to explain because it was all the same to me.

The stats I showed are not in favor and are not against him. They show that yes his shooting didn't stay the same, but he didn't get shut down by Prince, and it was moreso the Pistons defense that ended up slowing him down in the last 3 games...in addition to the fact that his teammates were useless.

I think it would be kind of an odd coincidence that as soon as one player started guarding a player that that player starts shooting bad. Did the Pistons just figure out how to play defense as soon as Prince started guarding him or something? I think Prince was the main factor because as you had stated his crazy length to contest his shot.

The biggest thing that made McGrady's scoring so dangerous was his length and how high he elevated when he shot up. Prince was actually able to contest it due to his own crazy length unlike Curry which is why Prince did so well and Curry didn't.

I also pointed out how T-Mac's reputation for struggling against elite defenders isn't warranted at all, since he lit up KG, Christie, Kidd, Jefferson, and Martin when he played against the Wolves, Kings, and Nets. The only perimeter defender he's legitimately struggled against consistently was Artest, who everyone has struggled against.

I think mystic's numbers speak for themselves. Plus, I don't think anyone said he struggled against good defenders, just very good teams which is somewhat of a difference.

And the competition favors T-Mac. The 03 Pistons were a better defensive squad than the 09 Hawks or the 06/07 Suns.

I wasn't necessarily referring to playoff competition, I was referring to regular season competition. Tmac should have gotten that team to a higher seed and an easier matchup due to how awful his conference was. Pistons were like a 50 win team and they were the 1st seed, enough said.

[KGboss]

i dont think Tmac should be anywhere close to this high, but thats me i guess.

[therealbig3]

Feel free to explain because it was all the same to me.

Ok, but to be clear, I don't think any of their supporting casts were good.

But Kobe played with Odom as a 2nd option in 06, and he played with a young Bynum and Odom in 07.

Wade played with Beasley, JO/Marion, Haslem, and Chalmers in 09.

T-Mac played with Miller/Giricek+Gooden, Garrity, and Armstrong in 03.


Kobe and Wade had at least one other player that could create and draw legitimate defensive attention away from them...T-Mac did not. I think that's a clear difference between the supporting casts.

I think it would be kind of an odd coincidence that as soon as one player started guarding a player that that player starts shooting bad. Did the Pistons just figure out how to play defense as soon as Prince started guarding him or something? I think Prince was the main factor because as you had stated his crazy length to contest his shot.

The biggest thing that made McGrady's scoring so dangerous was his length and how high he elevated when he shot up. Prince was actually able to contest it due to his own crazy length unlike Curry which is why Prince did so well and Curry didn't.

For sure Prince played a part in that, and it's not like it's a damning statement...you put a better defensive matchup on a player, and that player will most likely see a decline in his production. But a lot was made of the fact that T-Mac struggled really badly against Prince...when in reality, he was around 53% TS against him, which was not bad at all.

And yes, I also think the Pistons learned how to play T-Mac better as a team as the series went on.

I think mystic's numbers speak for themselves. Plus, I don't think anyone said he struggled against good defenders, just very good teams which is somewhat of a difference.

mystic's numbers, as I already pointed out, showed that even with T-Mac falling off more than Kobe against better teams (not necessarily better defenses, btw), he was still having the same production. Wade was a little better than both.

And that's just one measurement...again, I believe T-Mac's team was worse, which made it easier for opposing defenses to focus on him. Better teams would be able to take advantage of that more effectively.

And yes, it was mentioned that T-Mac "consistently" struggled against (by bastillon, I think) elite defenders like Prince, Artest, KG, and Bowen...but really, the only one of that group that gave him legitimate problems was Artest.

I wasn't necessarily referring to playoff competition, I was referring to regular season competition. Tmac should have gotten that team to a higher seed and an easier matchup due to how awful his conference was. Pistons were like a 50 win team and they were the 1st seed, enough said.

This might be the first time I've ever seen anyone say T-Mac should have done MORE that season.

[GrangerDanger]

94 D-Rob is getting mad underrated. People think he was worse than Bosh and Amare on offense? LOL. The Admiral didn't have a great supporting cast to take away defensive attention like Amare does, or a plamaking PG. Robinson was doubled about as often as Hakeem in 94. So he was a top 2 defensive player, and a top 2 offensive player that year. Who else besides Mikan can say that? His POs weren't amazing, but neither was Tmac in 03, or Wade in non rigged games in 06. West and Drob are the two main candidates imo, with 09 Wade,93 Barkley, and 11 Dirk close behind

[Josephpaul]

Baylor against Boston in the finals scored.
35, 36, 39, 38, 61 Which is still a record. 34, 41. For guy who had serve in the army and leap into basketball game he was quite amazing.

[C-izMe]

94 D-Rob is getting mad underrated. People think he was worse than Bosh and Amare on offense? LOL. The Admiral didn't have a great supporting cast to take away defensive attention like Amare does, or a plamaking PG. Robinson was doubled about as often as Hakeem in 94. So he was a top 2 defensive player, and a top 2 offensive player that year. Who else besides Mikan can say that? His POs weren't amazing, but neither was Tmac in 03, or Wade in non rigged games in 06. West and Drob are the two main candidates imo, with 09 Wade,93 Barkley, and 11 Dirk close behind

Amare is definetly better offensively. The only advantage DRob has on him was height (doesn't matter a whole lot when you get to their size), and passing ability. But he wasn't an elite passer, couldn't shoot like Amare (he shot well without Nash), and didn't have a post game (like Amare). I personally think Amare's faceup game is better even if we ignore the jumper. He has better handles, and before Melo came to NY really showed an ability to drive and kick.
Bosh is better too. Better post player, faceup, jumper, and he's nearly as good of a passer. Loses points for softness on the glass though.
And did you just say Wade wasn't good in "non rigged games". I challenge anyone who questions that series integrity to watch it and the 2010 Finals back to back. 2010 was a terribly officiated Finals and while 2006 had some head scratchers they almost all do. Actually the most known "bad" call in 06 was a completely right call and it would've been called for anyone.

[Lightning25]

Ok, but to be clear, I don't think any of their supporting casts were good.

But Kobe played with Odom as a 2nd option in 06, and he played with a young Bynum and Odom in 07.

Wade played with Beasley, JO/Marion, Haslem, and Chalmers in 09.

T-Mac played with Miller/Giricek+Gooden, Garrity, and Armstrong in 03.

Bynum was never special until 2008 so I'm not sure why he was on there. Odom was good in the post-season but they were playing the Suns, one of the worst, if not the worst defensive team in the league. The Suns got by with offense.

Kobe and Wade had at least one other player that could create and draw legitimate defensive attention away from them...T-Mac did not. I think that's a clear difference between the supporting casts.

Wade didn't play with anyone that required defensive attention, Beasley was just a rook in 2009 and he wasn't that good. JO wasn't that good in 2009 at all, and he shot 17% in the 2010 playoffs, there is no typo there, 17%...

Mcgrady may have had the worst but it's not by much which was my point, no separation between any of them.

For sure Prince played a part in that, and it's not like it's a damning statement...you put a better defensive matchup on a player, and that player will most likely see a decline in his production. But a lot was made of the fact that T-Mac struggled really badly against Prince...when in reality, he was around 53% TS against him, which was not bad at all.

His TS% was under 50%, I'm not going to exclude it out just because you want to, blow out or no blow out. Most of those last 3 games were blowouts anyways.

And yes, it was mentioned that T-Mac "consistently" struggled against (by bastillon, I think) elite defenders like Prince, Artest, KG, and Bowen...but really, the only one of that group that gave him legitimate problems was Artest.

Didn't your point out how Tmac shot under 50% TS% against the Spurs? I would call that struggling if that was the case. He definitely struggled against Prince too so it would appear that 3 defenders gave him fits. Certain defenders shouldn't give him fits at all to be honest especially if he is a top 16 peak player of all-time.

[GrangerDanger]

94 D-Rob is getting mad underrated. People think he was worse than Bosh and Amare on offense? LOL. The Admiral didn't have a great supporting cast to take away defensive attention like Amare does, or a plamaking PG. Robinson was doubled about as often as Hakeem in 94. So he was a top 2 defensive player, and a top 2 offensive player that year. Who else besides Mikan can say that? His POs weren't amazing, but neither was Tmac in 03, or Wade in non rigged games in 06. West and Drob are the two main candidates imo, with 09 Wade,93 Barkley, and 11 Dirk close behind

Amare is definetly better offensively. The only advantage DRob has on him was height (doesn't matter a whole lot when you get to their size), and passing ability. But he wasn't an elite passer, couldn't shoot like Amare (he shot well without Nash), and didn't have a post game (like Amare). I personally think Amare's faceup game is better even if we ignore the jumper. He has better handles, and before Melo came to NY really showed an ability to drive and kick.
Bosh is better too. Better post player, faceup, jumper, and he's nearly as good of a passer. Loses points for softness on the glass though.
And did you just say Wade wasn't good in "non rigged games". I challenge anyone who questions that series integrity to watch it and the 2010 Finals back to back. 2010 was a terribly officiated Finals and while 2006 had some head scratchers they almost all do. Actually the most known "bad" call in 06 was a completely right call and it would've been called for anyone.

Yes, a 53-56 TS% (Amare without Nash) is pretty good. It still doesn't compare to Robinson's efficency while getting doubled and triple teamed far more. Drob was an elite passer in 94. People focus on entire careers in this project but that isn't the point. Drob was a point center in 94, dishing like Divac while scoring like Shaq. His offensive game was far better than Amare even with Nash. Really not close. I will try to post some more 40 point games from that year, i think I still have them all downloaded

[C-izMe]

Robinson wasn't good enough to keep up his efficency though. He dominated against bad players and while he wasn't bad against great players, he still wasn't very good. And assists do not make you a great passer. He got assists because he was a faceup/driving center.

[therealbig3]

His TS% was under 50%, I'm not going to exclude it out just because you want to, blow out or no blow out. Most of those last 3 games were blowouts anyways.

Fine, 49% TS in a league where average TS% was 52% is not as bad as was originally made out. Furthermore, you were also the one that wanted to discount McGrady's 4th quarter play in game 2 of the 2002 series against Charlotte, because it was a "blowout" (when it really wasn't). Now you definitely want to include a huge 30+ point blowout? If we're going to be consistent, a game decided by 30+ points is not all that meaningful when telling us about how he played against a certain defender.

Didn't your point out how Tmac shot under 50% TS% against the Spurs? I would call that struggling if that was the case. He definitely struggled against Prince too so it would appear that 3 defenders gave him fits. Certain defenders shouldn't give him fits at all to be honest especially if he is a top 16 peak player of all-time.

He also had 3 TOs through 2 games, and averaged over 30 ppg. He was still producing a ton of offense. He had a 115 and 114 ORating in those 2 games.

BTW, Wade has struggled against Hinrich over his career, and he struggled against JJ/Marvin in 09.

[Doctor MJ]

Elgin Baylor 62 avg 38.3 Pts and 18.6 Boards with 4.6 ast.
In the playoffs he avg 38.6 17.7 boards and took Bill russell all the way to game 7, It considered to be one the greatest finals match ups of all time. A main reason its over looked is because of Wilts Great season. In his own right its deserves to be in the 16 spot i think.

Vote 62 Baylor

He's a very good choice IMO.

He's next for me after Moses.

Wow! Baylor's actually getting discussed before West is in? I was expecting I'd end up arguing against Baylor but I didn't think it would be anywhere near this early. My apologies for jumping on you guys.

Baylor played almost his entire prime with West. West spent most of that time shooting far more effectively than Baylor (in addition to being a smarter playmaker and a superior defender), but Baylor basically never stopped shooting as if he was the superior scorer. This is called playing bad basketball.

Now in '61-62, Baylor was still good enough and West was still green enough, that it's not clear that Baylor's play is bad strategically. Just keep in mind that you're talking about a player who missed half the season, and who in the playoffs STILL wasn't good enough to beat Jerry West in Win Shares despite missing no time.

I understand that some people don't think much of Win Shares, but if you're going to tout a guy so high on a list like this despite playing only a fraction of what his star teammate did, shouldn't he be pretty undisputedly superior to that teammate when they played?

The size of it: I honestly don't know if Baylor will make my Top 50. Quite literally, if you replace him with a wide variety of other players, I think the Lakers win a championship during that run.

[Doctor MJ]

Oh and while I'm at it:

I'd really like to see discussion about West's best year. The fact that Oscar's in while West still hasn't gotten any traction to me smacks of people simply not buying into the current discussion, which has been centered on '68 because of ElGee and I, and which has pretty obvious issue a lot of people are bothered by (his health).

Forget about '68 for a moment, look at the man's career - compare his top years by your measurement to Oscar's, what looks best to you?

[Lightning25]

Fine, 49% TS in a league where average TS% was 52% is not as bad as was originally made out. Furthermore, you were also the one that wanted to discount McGrady's 4th quarter play in game 2 of the 2002 series against Charlotte, because it was a "blowout" (when it really wasn't). Now you definitely want to include a huge 30+ point blowout? If we're going to be consistent, a game decided by 30+ points is not all that meaningful when telling us about how he played against a certain defender.

Well I do think there is a distinct difference between playing well in an overall game and in the clutch. It's not really in the clutch if you are getting blown out, so that is kind of off-base. Clutch is a very subjective term so lets not get off-topic here.

He also had 3 TOs through 2 games, and averaged over 30 ppg. He was still producing a ton of offense. He had a 115 and 114 ORating in those 2 games.

BTW, Wade has struggled against Hinrich over his career, and he struggled against JJ/Marvin in 09.

Wade doesn't struggle against Hinrich, he struggles against the Bulls. When was the last time you heard about this Hinrich is the Wade stopper talk? I've never heard of it since he has left Chicago and we all saw how Wade performed against Chicago in the 2011 playoffs. Wade just doesn't play well back at his hometown, it has nothing to do with Hinrich.

I wouldn't say he struggled against JJ or Marvin. I don't think Marvin guarded Wade that much anyways, it was Maurice Evans more so since Marvin was a 3 and a 4 while Mo was a 2 and a 3, same as Joe.

Plus, Wade did play pretty well against the Hawks in the regular season so it's not like they consistently gave him fits. He didn't play too well for his standards against the Hawks but he still played pretty well. It was mainly his shooting % that went down particularly his FG%, his TS% was still pretty good though.

Why do you have Tmac above Wade? I'm curious because I'm really not sure if it makes sense. Tmac was a better shooter than him and that was it.

[Josephpaul]

@Doc it's a well know fact Baylor was the driving force for that laker team even with him being in Berlin.... He set up a game wining shot for the 62 lakers . Had it gone in he would of been FMVP 62 finals.