#16 Highest Peak of All Time (Robinson '95 wins)

[An Unbiased Fan]

I'm kinda surprised Barkley and Dirk fell off the map. I think both have a fairly strong case over the guys getting votes right now.

I also have a question, why is Wade 09 > Dwight 09?
-Dwight was All-NBA/All-D 1st team, and the DPOY.
-The 2009 Magic were a 6.49 SRS team, compared to the Heat at 0.49. Was Dwight's cast 6+ SRS better?
-Dwight's team exceeded expectations and made the Finals, while the Heat lost to a mediocre Hawks team.

Was Wade more impactful than Dwight that year?

[drza]

Vote: 1995 David Robinson

[LikeABosh]

-The 2009 Magic were a 6.49 SRS team, compared to the Heat at 0.49. Was Dwight's cast 6+ SRS better?

You could make the case for that. Shard, Hedo, and Jameer all had their best years. Dwight was appropriately surrounded with floor spacers; it was just a great fit. Of course, you can attribute some of that "fit" to Dwight's offensive presence/drawing double teams. But let's take wade off the heat and dwight off the magic:

Heat:
Chalmers/Quinn
Livingston/Cook
Marion/Jones/Moon
Haslem/Beasley
O'neal/Magloire/Anthony

Orlando:
Nelson/Alston
Lee/Reddick
Hedo/Pietrus
Lewis/Battie
Gortat/Foyle

Maybe it's just me, but that magic team would be fighting for a 7th-8th seed in the east. Heat would be feeding somewhere near the bottom of the league.
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I voted DRob in the previous thread, but since kobe 08 got in, I feel like I should head for the direction of west or wade.The way I see it, Drob 7 spots away from KG makes more sense than Wade and West 2-3 spots behind kobe. I don't think 08 is kobe's peak and I don't think it's better than 09 wade or 68 west

[SDChargers#1]

This is really tough for me, I am torn between Robinson, West, and Wade. I think T-Mac should be a little bit further down (him having a top 20 peak irks me for some reason).

I am leaning towards Robinson because he was just so dominant on both sides of the floor in '95. If he hadn't gone up against Hakeem in monster mode, he probably would have won the title and it would be considered a top 10 peak ever.

Vote: 1995 Robinson

[MisterWestside]

You could make the case for that. Shard, Hedo, and Jameer all had their best years. Dwight was appropriately surrounded with floor spacers; it was just a great fit. Of course, you can attribute some of that "fit" to Dwight's offensive presence/drawing double teams. But let's take wade off the heat and dwight off the magic:

Heat:
Chalmers/Quinn
Livingston/Cook
Marion/Jones/Moon
Haslem/Beasley
O'neal/Magloire/Anthony

Orlando:
Nelson/Alston
Lee/Reddick
Hedo/Pietrus
Lewis/Battie
Gortat/Foyle

Maybe it's just me, but that magic team would be fighting for a 7th-8th seed in the east. Heat would be feeding somewhere near the bottom of the league.

some top minute getters: (ws/48/on-off)

Magic
Nelson .220/+9.7
Lewis .160/+10.3
Hedo .125/+7.7
Lee/.108/+0.0

Heat
Chalmers .095/+1.6
Haslem .106/+0.4
Beasley .081/-1.5
Cook .056/-1.5

Nah, Wade played with more talent

[An Unbiased Fan]

That's a very good point LikeABosh, but I would also mention that Jameer played only 42 games in 2009, and missed almost all of the post-season.

When we look at the 2009 Magic, we see that their major strength is on defense(#1 DRtg). That Magic roster really didn't have much defense outside of Dwight and Lee, so his DPOY performance that year seems to directly correlate with his team's success that season. Without him, Orlando's defense drops like a rock, and their offense likely sputters since the cast feeds off Dwight drawing attention in the middle.

The 2009 Heat however, were only #20 in ORtg in 2009. There big impact came on defense, and having guys like Marion and Haslem were fairly important in that regard. Even without Wade, Miami would have practice solid defense under Spo.

I guess my problem is that I see a more direct correlation to Dwight on the 2009 Magic's success, than I do to Wade on the 2009 Heat. Dwight was clearly the best defender that season, and the league's best rebounder. When I look at the arguments made for guys like Russell/Walton, I do wonder why Dwight is overlooked. He had more individual impact in both the RS & PS.

[MisterWestside]

The 2009 Heat however, were only #20 in ORtg in 2009.

Which wasn't Wade's fault. He played at a 116 ortg 36 usg/+11 on-off clip on offense that season.

Howard played well that season, but Wade was above him.

[ElGee]

Vote: 1995 David Robinson

[ElGee]

Vote: 1995 David Robinson

[An Unbiased Fan]

The 2009 Heat however, were only #20 in ORtg in 2009.

Which wasn't Wade's fault. He played at a 116 ortg 36 usg/+11 on-off clip on offense that season.

Howard played well that season, but Wade was above him.

OK, but again, what was the impact of Wade on that offense? Even Tmac 03 took a similar cast to the #10 ORtg.

You say Wade was above Dwight in 2009, but why? Dwight was clearly the best defensive anchor in the NBA, and the best rebounder. Offensively Wade was obviously better, yet the impact of his offense didn't yield much for Miami. I mean when the Magic are the #1 defense in the league, with Dwight the clear DPOY and Rebound champ at 13.8 rpg, and anchor of Orlando's offense. I really need to understand how Wade was more impactful that year.

[Doctor MJ]

I also have a question, why is Wade 09 > Dwight 09?
-Dwight was All-NBA/All-D 1st team, and the DPOY.
-The 2009 Magic were a 6.49 SRS team, compared to the Heat at 0.49. Was Dwight's cast 6+ SRS better?
-Dwight's team exceeded expectations and made the Finals, while the Heat lost to a mediocre Hawks team.

Was Wade more impactful than Dwight that year?

I've got a lot of respect for Howard, but I do think it's pretty easy to overrate him. Do you remember the 1st round series in '10 where Howard went for a single-single and the team won in a sweep? Might not seem like much considering it's the first round, but the very next year the team lost in the 1st round with Howard going nuts. If Howard's really carrying around a bunch of nobodies, why is there such extreme variance that doesn't seem to correspond with Howard's play?

With Wade, you've got a guy who has dragged drags to respectability, and with more supporting talent he won a title. I'm pretty solid on him.

[Doctor MJ]

OK, but again, what was the impact of Wade on that offense? Even Tmac 03 took a similar cast to the #10 ORtg.

You say Wade was above Dwight in 2009, but why? Dwight was clearly the best defensive anchor in the NBA, and the best rebounder. Offensively Wade was obviously better, yet the impact of his offense didn't yield much for Miami. I mean when the Magic are the #1 defense in the league, with Dwight the clear DPOY and Rebound champ at 13.8 rpg, and anchor of Orlando's offense. I really need to understand how Wade was more impactful that year.

Well when he was in, they played like a top 10 offense, and his offensive RAPM that year was pretty huge (3rd behind LeBron & Nash).

Re: "Howard clearly best defensive...". I think Howard's pretty overrated there. Not that his DPOY win is ridiculous, but competition's been pretty weak. Sure that makes him a considerably better defender than Wade, but was a hell of a lot better offensive player.

[Doctor MJ]

I've got a real tough time between Robinson, Wade, and non-'68 West. I really can't seem to make myself care, so for now I'll stick with my existing vote:

Vote: '68 West.

[Dr Positivity]

Howard has some Robinson in him in that I like him in the RS against weak opponents a lot more than in the PS against strong ones, because of his lack of finesse skill. Guys like Sheed, Perkins, Yao could always guard him straight up, because of their post D. His numbers aren't too hot against Bynum in 09 either. I think Howard in 09/10 has top 20 regular season impact ever, but in regards to winning a title I subscribe to the idea that the postseason is a different game requiring different skills, and he's a flawed player IMO

[MisterWestside]

OK, but again, what was the impact of Wade on that offense?

I just provided some insight. Read my post again. Wade's box and on-off splits showed he took that team to greater heights on offense.

Even Tmac 03 took a similar cast to the #10 ORtg.

You like to go all over the place with your posts. Let's stick to your Wade-Dwight comparison you brought up, okay?

[LikeABosh]

That's a very good point LikeABosh, but I would also mention that Jameer played only 42 games in 2009, and missed almost all of the post-season..

Yeah, I was thinking about that. I haven't looked at the game logs, but it seemed like the offense didn't really miss a beat. Hedo was capable of playing the point forward role, and howard/3 pt. shooters provided more than enough offense to go along with their #1 defense.

The 2009 Heat however, were only #20 in ORtg in 2009. There big impact came on defense, and having guys like Marion and Haslem were fairly important in that regard.

Eh, I wouldn't say the heat had a big impact on defense. Their mentality going into a game was "play defense, keep it close...that way we have a chance with wade". Their offense was kind of messy. Wade had to play point or beasley had to play PF just to get good spacing.

Even without Wade, Miami would have practice solid defense under Spo.

Well, you could say the same about Stan Van. Any decent coach will practice solid defense.

I guess my problem is that I see a more direct correlation to Dwight on the 2009 Magic's success, than I do to Wade on the 2009 Heat. Dwight was clearly the best defender that season, and the league's best rebounder. When I look at the arguments made for guys like Russell/Walton, I do wonder why Dwight is overlooked. He had more individual impact in both the RS & PS.

I don't see it that way. Dwight had the better team, more reliable offensive options around him than wade, and he led them to a better season. It's something you would expect. His defense was the constant for the Magic, but if you're wondering why he gets overlooked, it's because his offensive performances that year weren't so hot. He struggled to score against a celtics defense without KG....a worse Boston team than the one wade torched the following year. And then there were the finals...ugh. Gasol is great and the lakers were great, but I'm not voting anybody into the top 20 peaks when they only score 15-16 points in the most important games of the season. Even worse, knowing he's a defensive player more than offensive player, the lakers weren't even slowed down by the DPOY. +11.16 ORtg - only slightly worse than their season average

Also, I think dwight is overlooked because people see that he's the only dominant center in the nba and they wonder why he hasn't taken advantage of his weak competition. I'm not sure I agree with that criticism, but since you wondering I thought I'd take a guess

[An Unbiased Fan]

I also have a question, why is Wade 09 > Dwight 09?
-Dwight was All-NBA/All-D 1st team, and the DPOY.
-The 2009 Magic were a 6.49 SRS team, compared to the Heat at 0.49. Was Dwight's cast 6+ SRS better?
-Dwight's team exceeded expectations and made the Finals, while the Heat lost to a mediocre Hawks team.

Was Wade more impactful than Dwight that year?

I've got a lot of respect for Howard, but I do think it's pretty easy to overrate him. Do you remember the 1st round series in '10 where Howard went for a single-single and the team won in a sweep? Might not seem like much considering it's the first round, but the very next year the team lost in the 1st round with Howard going nuts. If Howard's really carrying around a bunch of nobodies, why is there such extreme variance that doesn't seem to correspond with Howard's play?

With Wade, you've got a guy who has dragged drags to respectability, and with more supporting talent he won a title. I'm pretty solid on him.

His single/single performance in that 2010 series was unimpressive box score wise, BUT he still has a massive impact on the defensive end. Dwight had 5 bpg in that series, and only played 26.5 mpg.

But were talking about 2009, where Dwight was fairly spectacular, including leading the Magic over the Cavs with no Jameer. I have to ask, what about Wade was more impactful than Dwight? How did Wade outperform Dwight in 2009? Especially in the PS.

Well when he was in, they played like a top 10 offense, and his offensive RAPM that year was pretty huge (3rd behind LeBron & Nash).

Re: "Howard clearly best defensive...". I think Howard's pretty overrated there. Not that his DPOY win is ridiculous, but competition's been pretty weak. Sure that makes him a considerably better defender than Wade, but was a hell of a lot better offensive player.

I don't see how Dwight's defensive is overrated when it carried Orlando to the #1 ranking, a 6.49 SRS, and a NBA Finals appearance. And again, let's not forget that Dwight was also the Rebound champ and creating tons of possessions for Orlando by controlling those boards.

Miami's strength was defense, not offense, and while Wade had a great year offensively, it only yielded a #20 Ortg. Other than RAPM, what case does Wade have over Dwight in 2009?

[therealbig3]

@Doctor MJ

Why are you so sold on 68 West over 09 Wade (or whatever year you think is peak Wade)? Not saying I think that's off-base, because West was a monster, but...so is Wade. Where do you see the separation?

[MisterWestside]

Miami's strength was defense, not offense, and while Wade had a great year offensively, it only yielded a #20 Ortg. Other than RAPM, what case does Wade have over Dwight in 2009?

As usual, you base individual performance on what the team does as a whole (here, it's team ortg). DocMJ and I have provided individual box/on-off/RAPM numbers that show Wade was 1) a dominant force offensively for his squad and 2) played with inept offensive talent, which reflects in the team ortg.

It's not worth debating this with you if you continue to make the same fallacy over and over in your posts.

[LikeABosh]

VOTE: 95 DRob

As much as I'd love to see Wade get voted in this soon, I gotta stick with my guns. The whole "DRob isn't a 1st option" is garbage to me. We had no problem voting in KG despite similar playoff shortcomings. And whether or not you think DRob was a good one, I don't know how you can say he wasn't a #1 option when he clearly was the best player and the go-to scorer for the Spurs (pre-Duncan era).