#17 Highest Peak of All Time (Wade '09 wins)

[therealbig3]

Well, regarding portability, I think there's a point when you assume a player is on a good team, and when you assume a player is on a stacked team that's unreasonable to expect, even with years of building. I think Durant is in an awesome position in OKC, with the way they've drafted and built their team.

Now, I do think Durant is more portable than T-Mac, in the way that Miller and Allen are more portable than pretty much anyone...he's such a good off-ball player and shooter, that he can fit in pretty much anywhere. However, I think T-Mac is an overall better player, by a clear margin. There's a difference in the way they score...T-Mac was much better in iso situations, and he was a far better creator and ball handler, and he was an excellent off-ball player in his own right. I also think he was better defensively (again, we're assuming he's on a good team, where he can focus more on defense).

There's pretty much no separation for me between T-Mac, Kobe, and Wade, and personally, I would have taken T-Mac first. He's going to be my next vote after Wade gets in (since Wade has all the traction right now).

[Lightning25]

]However, I think T-Mac is an overall better player, by a clear margin. There's a difference in the way they score...T-Mac was much better in iso situations, and he was a far better creator and ball handler, and he was an excellent off-ball player in his own right. I also think he was better defensively (again, we're assuming he's on a good team, where he can focus more on defense).

The better iso situation is actually completely bogus considering how Durant is the most clutch scorer in the game.

He creates for himself plenty these days. You can't really be clutch or reliable in the clutch if you can't create for yourself. That is the biggest criticism Karl Malone gets and why he is considered a choker and it's because he supposedly couldn't create his own shot reliably and without Stockton which I think and know it's bull but you understand why he gets the criticism.

OKC is a very-iso heavy team, nobody really creates for one another which is the reason why a lot of people doubted them to win last season. They played too much street ball esque basketball. Tmac was actually one of the worst when it came to the clutch in the 2000s decade. I remember there was an article that showed stats of who the best clutch players were and Tmac was actually at the very bottom of the list.

Also, as mentioned in the past, Durant is much better against better/elite competition than Tmac was because Tmac was someone that would beat up on beat teams and struggle a bit on the elite teams.

I would like to see Mystic's stats on Durant vs. BA and AA Teams though.

Defense is only based on theory but I thought Durant was a better defender in 2012 than Tmac ever was, whether he was in Toronto, Orlando, or Houston when he played on good or bad teams, Durant was just better defensively than Tmac was. It's only an opinion though but if you take the RAPM stats seriously then you would see that Durant is better defensively.

Tmac was a better ball-handler (taking care of the ball to be precise) and playmaker/passser but Durant has him beat at everything else.

[therealbig3]

The better iso situation is actually completely bogus considering how Durant is the most clutch scorer in the game.

He creates for himself plenty these days. You can't really be clutch or reliable in the clutch if you can't create for yourself. That is the biggest criticism Karl Malone gets and why he is considered a choker and it's because he supposedly couldn't create his own shot reliably and without Stockton which I think and know it's bull but you understand why he gets the criticism.

I'm not saying Durant can't create for himself, because he obviously can...but T-Mac has him beat in that regard. OKC is iso-heavy, but a ton of Durant's offense comes from his off-ball play specifically. When he has the ball, he's good, and he's an ok ball handler, but he's prone to TOs and doesn't have nearly the same control as T-Mac. For this reason, T-Mac was better at taking care of the ball and at creating a shot in iso situations, so he was better imo.

Defense is only based on theory but I thought Durant was a better defender in 2012 than Tmac ever was, whether he was in Toronto, Orlando, or Houston when he played on good or bad teams, Durant was just better defensively than Tmac was. It's only an opinion though but if you take the RAPM stats seriously then you would see that Durant is better defensively.

According to RAPM, Durant was -0.1 in 2012. T-Mac on a good team (that was still however heavily dependent on his offense) was +0.1 in 2005.

Tmac was a better ball-handler (taking care of the ball to be precise) and playmaker/passser but Durant has him beat at everything else.

Even if that's true and I concede the defense, T-Mac has HUGE advantages in those areas. While Durant's advantages are quite small (in terms of scoring and defense).

[Lightning25]

I'm not saying Durant can't create for himself, because he obviously can...but T-Mac has him beat in that regard. OKC is iso-heavy, but a ton of Durant's offense comes from his off-ball play specifically. When he has the ball, he's good, and he's an ok ball handler, but he's prone to TOs and doesn't have nearly the same control as T-Mac. For this reason, T-Mac was better at taking care of the ball and at creating a shot in iso situations, so he was better imo.

I don't think Tmac was better at creating his own shot off the dribble but I do think Tmac was better at taking care of the ball. That is just my two cents though, I think Durant is great at creating his own shot and I watched about 60+ OKC games last season.

According to RAPM, Durant was -0.1 in 2012. T-Mac on a good team (that was still however heavily dependent on his offense) was +0.1 in 2005.

According to RAPM in 2010, Durant was +1.2, Tmac was never that good. It is kind of odd that Durant's defensive RAPMs were that much better in 2010 than in 2012 though.

Even if that's true and I concede the defense, T-Mac has HUGE advantages in those areas. While Durant's advantages are quite small (in terms of scoring and defense).

I think that is fair so we'll have to agree to disagree. I think eventually Tmac and Durant debates will spark up but not now. I don't think it's either Durant or Tmac's time to be talked about soon, maybe when we get to 25-30.

[thizznation]

But here's the thing...that makes sense in an RPoY sense because in that project we're looking only at what actually happened in that one given year in those given circumstances. However, in this project we've repeatedly been looking at who would give a generic championship contender the best chance. Which means we're looking at hypotheticals, and we can't just assume that the exact same injury would occur under all circumstances.

Excellently articulated. *thumbs up*


Does anyone have some more complete SRS data of West's Lakers with and with out him in '66 and or '68, or if it has been posted already I could use a link to the thread, thanks.

[Doctor MJ]

Alright, Wade '09 takes it.

[therealbig3]

FWIW, in the 7 games T-Mac missed in 03 (so small sample size), Orlando had a 97.7 ORating against an average 104.5 DRating (-6.8). Considering they were +1.6 on the season, using some rough math, they were about a +2.4 offense in the 75 games T-Mac played.

Consider that their (most common) starting lineup that year was (I'm assuming this is it from looking at the team page on BR):

PG - Jacque Vaughn
SG - Tracy McGrady
SF - Mike Miller
PF - Pat Garrity
C - Shawn Kemp

Also, Grant Hill got injured and his season ended after January 16. After his 2nd option once again goes down with an injury, T-Mac in his 39 games following January 16 averages, per 36:

31.1 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.7 apg, 2.5 TOpg, 57.0% TS (+5.1%), 118 ORating

Mike Miller gets traded 13 games after Hill goes down with an injury, and these are T-Mac's numbers if we include that:

13 games post-Hill injury, pre-Miller trade, per 36: 28.0 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 5.4 apg, 1.8 TOpg, 53.2% TS (+1.3%), 115 ORating

26 games post-Miller trade, per 36: 32.6 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 5.8 apg, 2.8 TOpg, 59.0% TS (+7.1%), 120 ORating

After the Grant Hill injury, Orlando in the 39 games T-Mac plays has a 107.4 ORating vs an average DRating of 103.6 (+3.8). So T-Mac steps his game up, and the offense gets better as well and plays at a level that would have been 4th in the league offensively over a whole season.

You can see how much better T-Mac plays after Miller's trade, and he himself commented on it, regarding his close friendship with Miller and how he would be tough on his new teammates. It seemed that T-Mac really zoned in, and made sure his teammates did as well, and Orlando entered the playoffs playing really well offensively.

[mysticbb]

The more I think about it, the more I realized that Tmac's peak is probably not even top 25 and I would probably take 2012 Durant over any version of Tmac.

mystic, could you pull up Durant's stats vs. BA and AA teams?

For 2012, 21.75 per 75 poss against BA and 20.11 against AA.

Keep in mind, the 2012 season was also in average weaker than other seasons, the lockout had an influence on that. I would be reluctant to put 2012 in. I also have 2010 for Durant rated higher than 2012, not by much, obviously ...

[MisterWestside]

In the Barkley "impact" side debate, I think there was some good info at some point but that it kind of descended into snark at some point.

And you kind of didn't address the points I made. I already provided several counter arguments that pertains to your post.

"Snark", huh? Cute.