Build around KG or DIRK?

Laimbeer · Post #1 » by **Laimbeer** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:37 pm

Ripped from another thread.

Your expansion franchise has a choice between rookie KG and rookie DIRK. Either will spend their entire career with your team. Also, they will always be your best player.

KG is generally considered a better player, but who is better to build around as the guy?

An Unbiased Fan · Post #2 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:47 pm

I have Dirk higher all-time, and frankly, Dirk is just a more impactful player. KG's 7 straight 1st round losses, and 3 straight years missing the playoffs in his prime, says it all.

Geaux_Hawks · Post #3 » by **Geaux_Hawks** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:15 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:I have Dirk higher all-time, and frankly, Dirk is just a more impactful player. KG's 7 straight 1st round losses, and 3 straight years missing the playoffs in his prime, says it all.

Why can't people realize that the Wolves were a horribly built team. Swap Dirk in and they probably won't even make the playoffs. Dirk is obviously a great player, but he wasn't doing it by himself in Dallas. Jet, Kidd, Finley, Marion, Nash, Chandler, etc were all apart of Dirks supporting cast at sometime in their career. Marbury is probably the closest thing KG really had and he wasn't what he seemed to be.

Kidds BAC · Post #4 » by **Kidds BAC** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:25 pm

KG excuse makers are typing as we speak

Either contribute or refrain from posting. - rrravenred

Dr Pepper · Post #5 » by **Dr Pepper** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:41 pm

Like all contenders, both Dirk and KG need a defensive minded center, and player(s) that can create on the perimeter.

But I think Dirk can do more with less, and he's the more insane matchup nightmare especially come playoffs time. Dirk has rivaled and arguably outplayed the greatest forwards this league has seen including KG, Duncan, Gasol, and LeBron, and all in the playoffs too. Dirk is an all time great in the postseason, whereas KG rivals David Robinson.

And while both players had to develop their game and overall toughness, I respect Dirk's style of leadership more than KG who is known for bullying teammates, getting shat on by them on twitter, getting suspended for picking on a smaller player in the playoffs even as an old ass vet, etc.

However KG has been the more popular player and Dirk basically shuns the spotlight off the court, so KG could bring in more ticket sales at the cost of more losses.

SlobbaN · Post #6 » by **SlobbaN** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:43 pm

Dirk easily. More loyal, more impactfull, no health issues.

AshyLarry · Post #7 » by **AshyLarry** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:58 pm

SlobbaN wrote:Dirk easily. More loyal, more impactfull, no health issues.

whoa, i wouldnt go that far. KG has been loyal, he has given his most of his prime in Minny (thats more than being loyal), as far as impact goes, theyre about the same (dirk more impactful, but this is my opinion), and KG survived in the league for 17 years so i wouldnt say he has any health issues.

KG vs Dirk has been done a million times. its a matter of preference and opinion at this point. (i got dirk at 17 and KG at 18 in my list)

but as far as the question goes, id stick to the facts that has been proven and not play "what ifs"

Dirk has taken his team to the finals twice (won once), with different casts, different coaches, and different styles

he played as a lone all star on both finals trip beating the two former champions of the year before, (spurs in 05, lakers in 10),

in 06 he beat a prime phoenix, prime spurs(champions in 05). in 11 they swept lakers (2 time defending champs 09-10), an upcoming thunder, and a prime heat with lebron, wade, and bosh.

people talk about "dirk couldnt get minny in the playoffs", which is their opinion. but i doubt KG could do what dirk did going against the spurs, the lakers, and miami.

ThunderDan9 · Post #8 » by **ThunderDan9** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:10 pm

And suddenly Nowitzki is DIRK in like every thread on this board. :lol:

Ahonui must be very pleased.

Answering the question: I agree with those who chose Dirk.

Narigo · Post #9 » by **Narigo** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:22 pm

KG for me. He is a scorer, great playmaker/passer and could anchor the defense.

Woodsanity · Post #10 » by **Woodsanity** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:35 pm

I think KG is the better player but Dirk is the better playoff performer. Sure the Timberwolves were bad but that doesn't excuse KG's complete lack of playoff success. Overall, Dirk. He proved that he could win it all with a supporting cast without stars (just good players and a great coach). KG didn't even win FMVP(though he deserved it in my opinion)

ahonui06 · Post #11 » by **ahonui06** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:38 pm

If you want to win you take DIRK. If you want marketing dollars and lots of talcum powder you take KG.

JordansBulls · Post #12 » by **JordansBulls** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:18 pm

Dirk for me. They are close overall, but Dirk also wouldn't demand to be the highest paid player in the league until first he had proven he can lead a team to a title.

kasino · Post #13 » by **kasino** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:57 am

I have KG higher all-time and rather build around him

twomangame · Post #14 » by **twomangame** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:31 am

+1 to whatever AshyLarry posted.

Regulio · Post #15 » by **Regulio** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:35 am

Dirk for sure.
Defensive players are easier to find than offensive anchors, and there are very few in history of game that are that good as Dirk is.
KG is great supplementary player.

The Infamous1 · Post #16 » by **The Infamous1** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:41 am

Dirk easily much better offensive player.

Post #17 » by **rrravenred** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:48 am

An interesting wrinkle I just looked into was the number of points which each player produced with assists (thank you, BBR's event finder!)

These figures only go back to 2000-2001, but I don't know how much we care about that in any case...

The figures are for both playoffs and RS

Dirk: 3084 assists - 7079 points produced (6.71 per game) at a rate of 3.37 points per turnover (29.5% 3 pointers / 70.5% 2 pointers)
KG: 4086 assists - 9007 points produced (9.03 per game) at a rate of 4.11 points per turnover (20.5% / 79.5%)

(Tech Note: In terms of turnovers, I screened out turnovers like offensive goaltends and moving screens and tried to limit my turnover type to those that actually involve the player handling or passing the ball)

Some obvious stuff to interpret here.

Firstly, KG was a high volume, high-post distributor, and both his volume and his assist type (cutters and off-ball midrange shots) reflect this, wheras Dirk worked in more positions, including down low (which perhaps explains the higher percentage of 3-point shots generated).

So here's one quantification of KG's advantage over DIrk in terms of ball distribution, 2.3 more points per game for the team, at about 0.7 more points for every turnover. I doubt it'll clinch anyone's argument, but something to consider.

Post #18 » by **Texas Chuck** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:58 pm

Raven,

Interesting stuff but how can that really swing the argument when Dirk still creates more offense for his teams?

KG is obv going to have more assists and all stats building off that are going to favor him. Dirk's primary role has been as a finisher. Dallas' system has long been about the extra pass so Dirk has many more "hockey assists" where he doesnt get a statistical bump but is obviously the guy who created the open shot.

Ill grant you KG is a superior distibutor of the ball and a better passer. Dirk has gotten better with his passing but hes not in KG's class especially when you take their entire career into account. I dont think there is any argument to be made against that. I disagree tho with anyone who tries to use that to say that KG creates more offense for his team or his teammates.

EGarrett · Post #19 » by **EGarrett** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:06 pm

Laimbeer wrote:Ripped from another thread.

Your expansion franchise has a choice between rookie KG and rookie DIRK. Either will spend their entire career with your team. Also, they will always be your best player.

KG is generally considered a better player, but who is better to build around as the guy?

People here love Dirk (and also Reggie Miller for some reason), but I take KG all day. Even if he can't force buckets under pressure like Dirk, he can score 22 per game and provides incredible interior defense and versatility. Even if the Timberwolves organization wasn't very good at it, I think it will be easier to build a winning team around Garnett than around Dirk.

Post #20 » by **Texas Chuck** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:19 pm

EGarrett wrote:. Even if the Timberwolves organization wasn't very good at it, I think it will be easier to build a winning team around Garnett than around Dirk.

so your arument pro-KG is primarily that Minny sucks as an organization? I think thats a pretty decent argument because man was that franchise inept but dont you see how damning that argument is against KG?

You can say hes a better defender but he was never a defensive anchor in Minny. I think KG is a GOAT defender and I would put him right next to Pippen in my all-time D teams but people are incorrect to view his defense as having the same impact as an elite big man defender like Russell or Dream or Deke or Admiral or Duncan.

So if hes not a defensive anchor and you cant build contending teams around him offensively I fail to see any reason to take him over a guy who has carried his team to 10x50, 2 finals without another allstar and a title. I honestly dont see it.