How do u guys rate these 3rd tier PGs n their value?

SuperRaptorsFan · Post #1 » by **SuperRaptorsFan** » Thu Sep 6, 2012 5:05 am

big Question marks on few players:

Darren Collison - will he start for the Mavs?
DJ Augustin - who are the Pacers gonna start at pg? Augustin or George Hill?
Isiah Thomas- The Kings have signed Aaron Brooks this offseason, Brooks or Thomas?
Vasquez - Vasquez or Austin Rivers?
Ramon Sessions - Sessions or Kemba Walker?

Would also like to ask who do u guys rate higher? Kawhi Leonard or gordon Hayward this season????

HERSH · Post #2 » by **HERSH** » Thu Sep 6, 2012 6:55 am

darren to me seems the only one locked in to start..
after that i put isiah followed by ramon then probably augi
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kawhi > gordon next year too i think..

SuperRaptorsFan · Post #3 » by **SuperRaptorsFan** » Thu Sep 6, 2012 9:22 am

But Collison was disappointing last season

paul_aynilian · Post #4 » by **paul_aynilian** » Fri Sep 7, 2012 6:12 pm

Interesting question. I would rank them:
1- Collison
2-Thomas
3-Vasquez
4-Augustin
5-Sessions

Collison is definitely starting for Dallas, the only other option would be like, Delonte West. Any Mavs starting PG with Dirk on the team has real value.
Thomas is most likely starting over Brooks, and he has a healthy Marcus Thornton alongside him in the backcourt and an improving front-line to help him out...but his time could get eaten into by Brooks (as you mentioned) and even Tyreke Evans if he gets his way and gets some PG mins
Vasquez/Rivers is a 50/50 battle right now, even if Vasquez starts over Rivers he still will have limited minutes and a very limited upside (I just don't think he has the potential to go for 20 pts on a give night like Collison does)
Augustin is a bona-fide back-up to George Hill. No chance he starts...but even so, I really like the Pacers overall this year and think he could make a small impact
Don't like Sessions at all mainly because his production has dropped off recently and Charlotte isn't exactly a franchise to rejuvinate guys at this point. Still think the franchise wants to take a legit spin or 2 with Kemba at the wheel.

patentboy23 · Post #5 » by **patentboy23** » Sun Sep 9, 2012 4:17 am

paul_aynilian wrote:Interesting question. I would rank them:
1- Collison
2-Thomas
3-Vasquez
4-Augustin
5-Sessions

Collison is definitely starting for Dallas, the only other option would be like, Delonte West. Any Mavs starting PG with Dirk on the team has real value.
Thomas is most likely starting over Brooks, and he has a healthy Marcus Thornton alongside him in the backcourt and an improving front-line to help him out...but his time could get eaten into by Brooks (as you mentioned) and even Tyreke Evans if he gets his way and gets some PG mins
Vasquez/Rivers is a 50/50 battle right now, even if Vasquez starts over Rivers he still will have limited minutes and a very limited upside (I just don't think he has the potential to go for 20 pts on a give night like Collison does)
Augustin is a bona-fide back-up to George Hill. No chance he starts...but even so, I really like the Pacers overall this year and think he could make a small impact
Don't like Sessions at all mainly because his production has dropped off recently and Charlotte isn't exactly a franchise to rejuvinate guys at this point. Still think the franchise wants to take a legit spin or 2 with Kemba at the wheel.

Hmm didn't think of Collison like that but he has potential. Mav's coach should use him properly and have him run the offense. I'm hoping his little stint in NO comes back to life now that's he back in the West. I've been sold on Grevis because he should get big playing time while Rivers runs a bit at the 2. Also, you can get Grevis a little bit later in drafts than Collison and if you have 2 solid PGs already then Grevis should be a solid option.

I. Collison 2. Thomas 3. Grevis 4.DJ 5.Sessions

Apathy · Post #6 » by **Apathy** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:28 pm

They all suck. Don't wait to grab good PGs. I'd take Andre Miller over all of 'em.

Fenris-77 · Post #7 » by **Fenris-77** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:43 pm

Apathy wrote:They all suck. Don't wait to grab good PGs. I'd take Andre Miller over all of 'em.

Andre Miller over Collison is probably a mistake. Maybe Vasquez and Thomas as well. The issue there is really Millers super-low ceiling. He played 27 minutes a game for Denver last season, which he won't improve on, and managed 9 points, 6.7 dimes and a steal, with no other redeeming categories aside from solid low volume FT%. Why in the world should anyone be excited about that as anything other than a late source of assists?

drtran117 · Post #8 » by **drtran117** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:45 pm

1. Darren Collison-He plays better when he's in a more uptempo team, which wasn't the case with the Pacers when he had to cater to slow Roy Hibbert. Plus, he has no one behind him to take his minutes. I'd predict 14/6/1.2 (Points, Assists, Steals per game) with 0.7 3PTM/game on 45% FG%.

2. Greivis Vasquez-While the Hornets are trying to force Austin Rivers to play PG, Rivers really isn't one at all. Vasquez in my mind will stay as the starting PG, and he's a pretty good Assist-er. I'd predict 11/6.5/1.2 with (1 3PTM/game) on 43% FG%.

3. Isaiah Thomas-He's going to have stiff competition from Aaron Brooks and Tyreke Evans (who the Kings are still trying to find a position for). He's more of a scoring Point Guard, and his selling point is his 3's. I'd predict 13/4.5/1 with (1.7 3PTM/game) on 45% FG%.

4. Ramon Sessions-He's not going to be bad this coming season since he's in the purgatory between NBA starter and bench player. Assuming he's the backup to Kemba Walker he'll give you about 5-6 Assists/Game and around the ballpark of 10 Points, but not much else. I'd predict 11/5.5/0.7 with 0.7 3PTM/game on 46% FG%.

5. D.J. Augustin-Would be much higher if he wasn't just a backup due to his 3's and decent assists, but with him only being signed to a 1-year contract and being on a timeshare with George HIll, he's the last on my list. I'd predict 8/3.5/0.6 with 1 3PTM/game on 41% FG%.

Apathy · Post #9 » by **Apathy** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:54 am

Fenris-77 wrote:
Apathy wrote:They all suck. Don't wait to grab good PGs. I'd take Andre Miller over all of 'em.

Andre Miller over Collison is probably a mistake. Maybe Vasquez and Thomas as well. The issue there is really Millers super-low ceiling. He played 27 minutes a game for Denver last season, which he won't improve on, and managed 9 points, 6.7 dimes and a steal, with no other redeeming categories aside from solid low volume FT%. Why in the world should anyone be excited about that as anything other than a late source of assists?

My post was flippant but after thinking about it I'd still take Miller. Collison is no secret; you'll have to take Collison waaay before Miller. Miller will be underrated because he's old, is a backup and doesn't hit 3s. But he never gets hurt and Lawson isn't equipped for 38+ mpg, so 25-27 mpg for Miller, playing in an up-tempo system with loads of offensive talent, means Miller is a lot safer than you think.

Collison doesn't have any elite skills and is not going to come cheap. Value-wise Miller is the winner.

Fenris-77 · Post #10 » by **Fenris-77** » Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:35 am

It's not that Miller isn't safe, he certainly is, it's just that there isn't any upside whatsoever. I'll more than happily take him late for the Ast, but there's nothing exciting about the pick. He might be great value for the 14th round pick or whatever that you need to use on him, but that doesn't make him actually good. At least with Collison you might get solid starting PG numbers from a guy you can draft in the middle rounds.

Apathy · Post #11 » by **Apathy** » Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:06 pm

Fenris-77 wrote:It's not that Miller isn't safe, he certainly is, it's just that there isn't any upside whatsoever. I'll more than happily take him late for the Ast, but there's nothing exciting about the pick. He might be great value for the 14th round pick or whatever that you need to use on him, but that doesn't make him actually good.

If Lawson gets hurt, which certainly isn't out of the question for a 5'11 PG, Miller would instantly become a ~3rd round value for however long Lawson was out.

At least with Collison you might get solid starting PG numbers from a guy you can draft in the middle rounds.

Isn't that what everyone said last year?

On ESPN's Player Rater Miller finished 71st.

Collison finished 105th.

Fenris-77 · Post #12 » by **Fenris-77** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:52 am

Yes he did. In Indiana, Where fantasy PGs go to die. Collison's going to be playing a system far better suited to his game this year, and he's playing with great finishers. There's a reason people are excited about him.

And sure, if Lawson gets hurt Miller looks great, but that's true of any good back-up point guard and is usually built into their ranking. Beyond that, while Lawson may be 5'11, but he's also a tank - we're not talking about Isiah Thomas from the Kings here, Lawson is sturdy. The injury risk there is a minor bump for Miller IMO, nothing more. I'm also not so sure Miller hits third round value even if Lawson goes down, but that's another whole topic.

Apathy · Post #13 » by **Apathy** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:58 am

You conveniently ignored the fact that Miller posted Top 70 vaue last season. Your "that doesn't make him good" comment is blatantly false.

Fenris-77 · Post #14 » by **Fenris-77** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:06 am

BBM has him ranked at 176 last season for 9 cat play. Maybe you need to be a little more measured if you want to throw around terms like 'blantantly false'. Miller most certainly did not post top 70 value last season.

CableKC · Post #15 » by **CableKC** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:01 pm

Darren Collison - will he start for the Mavs? Who else is going to start over him in Dallas?

DJ Augustin - who are the Pacers gonna start at pg? Augustin or George Hill? I think that Augustin will start by the ASB....but it won't matter....regardless of who starts....both will play "1st Guard off the bench" to "Starter" minutes with Hill definitely getting Starter minutes.

Isiah Thomas- The Kings have signed Aaron Brooks this offseason, Brooks or Thomas? I can see the same thing happening in SacTown that will happen in Indy.....both Guards will play enough minutes to make a small difference.....with IMHO Thomas getting the edge.

Vasquez - Vasquez or Austin Rivers? I think both will be on the floor at the same time...so it won't matter.

Ramon Sessions - Sessions or Kemba Walker? Kemba Walker will be the Starting PG and Sessions will either be the Starting SG or more than likely the 1st Guard off the bench....playing about 24 mpg as the 1st Guard off the bench...or 28 mpg Starting Guard minutes.

Would also like to ask who do u guys rate higher? Kawhi Leonard or gordon Hayward this season???? I think that Kawhi will produce more "across the board" stats....but I think that he has more Wingmen to compete with Danny Green, SJax and Manu at the SG/SF rotation..while Hayward would be competing with Alec Burks and Marvin Williams for Wingman minutes at the SG/SF rotation. I'd go with Hayward if you want more consistent production.

Apathy · Post #16 » by **Apathy** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:36 pm

Fenris-77 wrote:BBM has him ranked at 176 last season for 9 cat play. Maybe you need to be a little more measured if you want to throw around terms like 'blantantly false'. Miller most certainly did not post top 70 value last season.

You're wrong again (http://basketballmonster.com/PlayerRankings.aspx). And that's 9-cat; ESPN ranks 8-cat.

Fenris-77 · Post #17 » by **Fenris-77** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:39 am

Really? Lets field test that shall we. So, we click on that link you provided, click get rankings, and amazingly there's Andre Miller right at 176, exactly where I said he'd be. Shocking.

And for 8 cat BBM ranks him at 121 (or maybe 123, something in that range) - either way no where close to top 70. ESPN's rankings are notorious for being weird and out of whack too, so if their black-box player rater is your yardstick rather than the vastly more reliable (and explicable) Z-scores that Basketball Monster used to rank production then I'm not surprised we don't see eye to eye. Personally, I don't use the ESPN rankings for much of anything.

Apathy · Post #18 » by **Apathy** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:50 am

That link didn't send it to the correct settings. The default sort is per game value. The accurate sort is total.

Try again.

Fenris-77 · Post #19 » by **Fenris-77** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:13 am

Actually no, not at all. Per game is a great measure of how well a player played provided you have a sufficient sample size (which we do with Miller), while total is a great measure of how many games he played - it's certainly not a better measure of player value though, especially not last season. No one gives a rats ass that Miller played a lot games last year, his actual production is border-line undraftable in standard leagues.

In fact, I dare you to construct an argument that makes a case for total stats being a better measure of a player's skill than their average per game stats. You can try, but you know perfectly well I'm going to tie that argument behind a horse and drag it up main street. Go nuts if you feel that strongly about your untenable position though.

azuresou1 · Post #20 » by **azuresou1** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:12 pm

Never sort by total unless you're dealing with players made out of paper, it's average that counts. This is true for H2H, but even more so for roto, where you have max games.

Why do I care that Andre Miller finished 127th (still terrible) on a total basis? I don't - I'm not drafting at the start of the season and never touching my lineup again. I'm picking up and dropping based on who is performing well and who isn't. Jeremy Lin doesn't even show up on the total count, you mean to tell me you'd rather have Miller than Lin because of that?