All Things "Brooklyn Nets" Thread

[enetric]

This is happening way too much on this board of late. Taking sample sized stats and and using efficiency for guys getting less opportunity to exaggerate their true worth. I will throw stats into anything...but of late I feel this board is using them to their detriment...and by that I mean tainting reality.

What is the driving force here? Idiotic sites like 82games? Hollinger? Fantasy sports? Video game rankings? Please let the madness stop. Young fans...look at ALL stats...and more importantly...watch games. Understand what is creating these stats. Put things in their proper perspective.

[enetric]

To be fair, Wallace hasn't been the same caliber player since being traded from Charlotte.

Agreed. You can give Wallace a bit of wiggle room if you are optimism and say..maybe it was fit in Portland...lets see what happens. But in reality...it didnt look like fit. He was content to hang out in 3 point land and watch without moving a muscle half the game last season. It was hard to watch.

He has always been an enigma type of player. Hopefully he has more in the tank than it appeared last year. If not? Just how badly we over paid will become evident quickly.

Agreed?

Scola and Allen in the same category or tier level? Laughable. And I don't say that cause I'm high on Wallace.

Tony Allen ranked 66th is an abomination. I'd have him somewhere between 100 and 110 and that's solely cause his defense is outstanding.

If Allen wasn't the defender he is and his offense was so game killing like it is, he would be in the 400's glued to a different team's bench as their 14th man for vet min every season.

His nickname is Trick or Treat for a reason.

Scola is a shell of himself.

People want to point at Wallace falling off? Look at Scola, he's a borderline starter at this point. Below average player.

Wallace's defense is still flat out elite and the rest of his game at least average.

I have no problem ranking Wallace somewhere between say 50 and 65, but those other guys aren't in the same tier level, they're like 2 or 3 tiers below, besides Boozer who is sooooooooo much better then the ridiculous hate he gets all over the internet.

I should have been more specific. I was reacting to...Wallace hasnt been the same player since he left Charlotte. And in that regard..he hasnt. If he plays the way he played in Portland last season...no he isnt better than Boozer and yes Boozer is better than given credit for. I am convinced the hate comes from how badly he has killed fantasy teams since going to Chicago. Fantasy sports is how a Millsap can become overrated and a Boozer can become underrated.

Scola had a good year the season before last but yes I agree he is also on the steep decline and at their best Wallace ran circles around Scola. I do think Allen can be more if he got more touches or I should say I think more of him then you do. Albeit...these efficiency stats would drop off if he was seeing the ball more. He is a complimentary player who can do little things...nothing more.

I am not sure I feel Crash is still an elite defender. I am not convinced. I hope he is. But we both know that if we gave 40mil to the guy we saw in Portland last year...we really screwed up. He has been one of my favorite players in the NBA over the last decade. But in all honesty...I am deeply concerned what he has left. It was shocking to watch him last season. I am just hoping it was "fit". Your boy Aldridge sucks the like out of everyone else around him offensively. I know you love him...but as a go to guy...I can rip plenty about him.

[enetric]

The point is, at least the one I would make, that even if Wallace belongs in the 70's, he's in the same tier level with Boozer. Above average players and starters, but not great. I would never call Wallace All Star caliber now though, that's taking it a step too far.

Scola and Jennings, these guys are in the 80's or 90's.

Reke? Deep 100's, if not in the 200's.

Allen, I'd have right in the 100 to 115 range.

That's my point.

I have no beef where Wallace is ranked, right around 70, but I do have an enormous beef where the guys around him are ranked though.

It really has nothing to do with him, it has to do with the perception of the specific other guys we're talking about and comparing them to Wallace.

Wallace is probably ranked about perfectly. It's the others save Boozer who are a minimum of 20 spots too high each, some as much as literally one hundred and 40 spots too high.

I understand your category points...but in reality you are probably ranking all these guys too low. The NBA just isnt that deep.

[vincecarter4pres]

Nobody is comparing them as players because Wallace > Allen but breaking down their offensive games around the basket aren't that far off is what I'm saying.

Around the basket?

You seem to be moving the goalposts.

Also, Allen doesn't have the moves to get to the basket that Wallace has.

I'd imagine he doesn't finish as well there either, especially if we takeout transition buckets where he's mainly uncontested.

[vincecarter4pres]

This is happening way too much on this board of late. Taking sample sized stats and and using efficiency for guys getting less opportunity to exaggerate their true worth. I will throw stats into anything...but of late I feel this board is using them to their detriment...and by that I mean tainting reality.

What is the driving force here? Idiotic sites like 82games? Hollinger? Fantasy sports? Video game rankings? Please let the madness stop. Young fans...look at ALL stats...and more importantly...watch games. Understand what is creating these stats. Put things in their proper perspective.

You have me up to labeling 82games.com as idiotic.

Advanced stats are supreme to raw and both are better then a flat out eye test, because there is too much variance in perception and accuracy of the beholder over a large sample size.

If we're talking certain people on this board such as yourself, Jeff, Ron, NyCe, etc., etc., or guys like Tserkin, DockingsSched, a number of Minnesota posters for some reason, loserx, etc., etc., then I have read what they wrote over the years and they understand the game and have good eyes for the eye test. But most of the time it's random dolts that have no idea what a good player or good basketball is and don't have the intelligence, knowledge and common sense to process what they're seeing and interpret the information they're taking in.

Perspective and context are absolutely necessary and without them stats become useless or even dangerous, but even stats used incorrectly are still better as a whole then people who think Monta Ellis is an efficient superstar stuck on lottery squads and that Josh Smith is a dominant offensive player.


You really need a mix of them all with context.

[vincecarter4pres]

The point is, at least the one I would make, that even if Wallace belongs in the 70's, he's in the same tier level with Boozer. Above average players and starters, but not great. I would never call Wallace All Star caliber now though, that's taking it a step too far.

Scola and Jennings, these guys are in the 80's or 90's.

Reke? Deep 100's, if not in the 200's.

Allen, I'd have right in the 100 to 115 range.

That's my point.

I have no beef where Wallace is ranked, right around 70, but I do have an enormous beef where the guys around him are ranked though.

It really has nothing to do with him, it has to do with the perception of the specific other guys we're talking about and comparing them to Wallace.

Wallace is probably ranked about perfectly. It's the others save Boozer who are a minimum of 20 spots too high each, some as much as literally one hundred and 40 spots too high.

I understand your category points...but in reality you are probably ranking all these guys too low. The NBA just isnt that deep.

I understand what you're saying, but with these specific guys I stick by that.

Tyreke Evans is a fantastic briefcase of suck.

Scola is still good but on the way down.

Jennings is an inefficient chucker at position where he's supposed to get others involved, not suck the life out of the offense and grind it to a halt. Even if he were a scoring point guard, he's not good at that either. He's a $hitty jump shooter. Pretty decent defense, little bit of passing skill. Nice handle, but doesn't like contact much and not a great finisher. Just a very average player at best.

I can easily rattle off 80 to 90 players better then the latter 2 and 150 better then the former.

[vincecarter4pres]

To be fair, Wallace hasn't been the same caliber player since being traded from Charlotte.

Agreed. You can give Wallace a bit of wiggle room if you are optimism and say..maybe it was fit in Portland...lets see what happens. But in reality...it didnt look like fit. He was content to hang out in 3 point land and watch without moving a muscle half the game last season. It was hard to watch.

He has always been an enigma type of player. Hopefully he has more in the tank than it appeared last year. If not? Just how badly we over paid will become evident quickly.

Agreed?

Scola and Allen in the same category or tier level? Laughable. And I don't say that cause I'm high on Wallace.

Tony Allen ranked 66th is an abomination. I'd have him somewhere between 100 and 110 and that's solely cause his defense is outstanding.

If Allen wasn't the defender he is and his offense was so game killing like it is, he would be in the 400's glued to a different team's bench as their 14th man for vet min every season.

His nickname is Trick or Treat for a reason.

Scola is a shell of himself.

People want to point at Wallace falling off? Look at Scola, he's a borderline starter at this point. Below average player.

Wallace's defense is still flat out elite and the rest of his game at least average.

I have no problem ranking Wallace somewhere between say 50 and 65, but those other guys aren't in the same tier level, they're like 2 or 3 tiers below, besides Boozer who is sooooooooo much better then the ridiculous hate he gets all over the internet.

I should have been more specific. I was reacting to...Wallace hasnt been the same player since he left Charlotte. And in that regard..he hasnt. If he plays the way he played in Portland last season...no he isnt better than Boozer and yes Boozer is better than given credit for. I am convinced the hate comes from how badly he has killed fantasy teams since going to Chicago. Fantasy sports is how a Millsap can become overrated and a Boozer can become underrated.

Scola had a good year the season before last but yes I agree he is also on the steep decline and at their best Wallace ran circles around Scola. I do think Allen can be more if he got more touches or I should say I think more of him then you do. Albeit...these efficiency stats would drop off if he was seeing the ball more. He is a complimentary player who can do little things...nothing more.

I am not sure I feel Crash is still an elite defender. I am not convinced. I hope he is. But we both know that if we gave 40mil to the guy we saw in Portland last year...we really screwed up. He has been one of my favorite players in the NBA over the last decade. But in all honesty...I am deeply concerned what he has left. It was shocking to watch him last season. I am just hoping it was "fit". Your boy Aldridge sucks the like out of everyone else around him offensively. I know you love him...but as a go to guy...I can rip plenty about him.

Well you know I share that similarity with you of a hyperbolic posting style, I'll call it colorful.

But just to touch on a couple points...

1. Yes, to me Wallace is still very very much an elite defender and should be through year 3 of this deal even if he slows down and loses some athleticism, just like Marion was through at least their title run in Dallas and mainly last year as well.

2. Yes, the contract is definitely bad no matter how we slice it.

3. LMA sucks the life out of everyone else around him offensively? Huh? Explain please.

[vincecarter4pres]

Nobody is comparing them as players because Wallace > Allen but breaking down their offensive games around the basket aren't that far off is what I'm saying.

The only thing about Wallace is, I really hope he can return to his Charlotte form because he actually played like it with us last season. It's very clear, he didn't like Portland. He went downhill there.

Just because he "went down" there didn't mean he didn't like it.

Many people felt Batum has the opportunity to be better than Wallace in the near future and therefore keeping Batum as a reserve was stunting his growth. Other people, felt that Wallace would be better than Batum for a while and therefore having Batum as a reserve was not a problem.

Rather than splitting minutes between the two, they felt that both were starters capable of playing full starter's minutes, so they needed to make a decision as to who they were going to keep. Wallace's numbers went down because there was a logjam at the SG/SF positions (and as long as Aldridge was healthy, Wallace wasn't going to play PF).

Things came to a head when Batum was due for a contract this past season. POR believed in his potential but they still had a good player in Wallace and they had a hard time choosing. At the end, they decided to go with Batum's potential (since POR was already playing poorly anyway) and dump Wallace.

The sad thing is since POR was already looking to dump Wallace, we should've been able to get him for much less than what we paid to get him. We gave them salary relief + a guaranteed top 10 pick (ended up being #6) for an expiring contract that they decided they wanted to get rid of anyway.

These are good points.

Although there was at times a noticeable lack of athleticism and all out throwing himself around play, it dead honestly wasn't nearly as dramatic as his detractors makes.

Of note he was dealing with a strained hammy most of last season as well and also a messed up finger, which Portland fans have shown us was documented where he didn't want to dunk or go for blocks and steals as much because of it, cause he knew it wasn't going to heal til the offseason and could get worse and was very painful. They said he more or less abandoned dunking altogether.

Also, I can't grasp how people thought they were going to see the stats Crash put up in Charlotte anywhere else.

He was overused their and they had no one else really besides him and Jackson.

He is and was a very good player so he was going to fill up the sheet when given those minutes and usage rate, but to expect the same raw per game stats on a deep team is foolish and really just kind of dumb.

To be honest, I'm expecting something like 11 to 13ppg, 7 or 8 rpg, 2 apg, 1bpg, 1.5spg here with great overall defense and hustle.

[NyCeEvO]

^^Yeah, I'm expecting those numbers too. I can't wait to see how he impacts the defense now that he can basically put all of his focus on that.

When he came to the Nets, he knew he needed to score but with this squad, he should never have to look for his shot.

I liked Deron's comments about turning this team into a good defensive team, because they already know they can score. If we can Lopez to use his length to his advantage and mitigate his deficiency in speed, we have the potential to be an elite offense with at least an average defense.

[therealbig3]

Well, to qualify my stance on him still being an All-Star caliber player:

Under the right conditions, I do think he still has that talent. There's almost no chance he'll actually be an All-Star, since Melo and LeBron are locks as the starters, and there are numerous other players who will get more attention for the backup roles. But in terms of playing at a level that could be worthy of an All-Star spot, yeah, he's still got that.

In his brief 16 games with the Nets last year, he averaged 15/7/3 with great defense and hustle, and a very low TO rate (even though he was creating more than usual). Again, this is dealing with adjusting to a new team, and injuries. Granted, he was on a piss poor squad, but even 13/7/2 with great defense on a good team...that's what got Iggy into the All-Star game last year. And you can still have All-Star impact without necessarily putting up All-Star numbers.

He's still a great defender and rebounder, and he can still average 15+ ppg. He's not the all-around beast he was in Charlotte, but I do think he's still capable of playing at an All-Star level, especially with a PG like Deron.

Like I said, I don't even think he's all that great...but he's definitely a pretty good player, and I think he's getting underrated a bit. He's actually one of the reasons why I'm excited about this season...he fits perfectly into any squad, because he doesn't need the ball or specific plays run for him, and he's all-out contagious hustle and defense. It's actually pretty hard to find players like that, specifically the type of fit he provides. Deron and JJ may clash offensively at times, but I really don't see any problems arising with Wallace on either side of the ball.

[Paradise]

Gerald, I think will benefit more than Lopez playing with Joe and Deron.

So, the numbers of Deron, Joe, Gerald last season:

Deron: 36 minutes: 40.7 FG%, 33 3PT%, 84.3 FT%, 3.3rebs, 8.7asts,, 1.2stls, 21.0ppg

Joe: 35.5 minutes: 45 FG%, 38 3PT FG%, 84 FT% (career high), 3.7rebs, 3.9asts, 0.8stls, 18.8ppg

Gerald: 35.8 minutes: 41 FG%. 38 3PT FG%, 85 FT% (career high), 6.8rebs, 3.1asts, 1.4 stls, 15.2ppg

Now, I have no idea how many touches Lopez will get because I think the team dynamic will flow better when Deron, Joe, Gerald is getting the ball. Deron can create his own shot, come off screens, then find Joe coming off screens, post ups, isos, Deron can find Gerald cutting to the rim or wide open shots created from the defense focusing on Deron and Joe. Joe can pass to Deron and Gerald and do some ball handling.

[therealbig3]

Lopez and JJ are going to be the #2 and #3 offensive options in some order. Lopez is also our one true back to the basket, low post offensive big man, so he'll get touches when we want to get some easy buckets in the paint, and we'll probably run the offense through him for certain stretches.

I don't really see Wallace getting the ball over him. He'll be the 4th option, glue guy. He'll finish, he'll crash the boards, he'll make nice cuts to the basket, he'll be an extra ball handler, and he'll make some nice passes. He's got a decent post game too, so he'll probably get some touches on the block with Brook on the bench or if the matchup favors him. Overall, he'll do a bit of everything, depending on what we need, but he won't actually be a focal point of the offense. My guess is he'll mainly be an opportunistic scorer.

[Paradise]

Lopez and JJ are going to be the #2 and #3 offensive options in some order. Lopez is also our one true back to the basket, low post offensive big man, so he'll get touches when we want to get some easy buckets in the paint, and we'll probably run the offense through him for certain stretches.

I don't really see Wallace getting the ball over him. He'll be the 4th option, glue guy. He'll finish, he'll crash the boards, he'll make nice cuts to the basket, he'll be an extra ball handler, and he'll make some nice passes. He's got a decent post game too, so he'll probably get some touches on the block with Brook on the bench or if the matchup favors him. Overall, he'll do a bit of everything, depending on what we need, but he won't actually be a focal point of the offense. My guess is he'll mainly be an opportunistic scorer.

And that's the thing, he was the 4th option for Portland and he did not play well in it at all. He plays better with a bigger role.

The offense should run through Lopez when Deron, JJ are on the bench and the bench squad is in the game.

Watson, Brooks, Childress, Evans, Lopez - Bench mob.

[therealbig3]

BTW, I was just thinking of something:

Lopez should work with Hakeem. I know he's got a nice post game already, but it wouldn't hurt to learn some tricks from the master. Mainly, he should pick up some tips on defense. Can't find a much better teacher than Hakeem.

[vincecarter4pres]

BTW, I was just thinking of something:

Lopez should work with Hakeem. I know he's got a nice post game already, but it wouldn't hurt to learn some tricks from the master. Mainly, he should pick up some tips on defense. Can't find a much better teacher than Hakeem.

Reportedly he did earlier in the summer for a couple weeks.

[vincecarter4pres]

Lopez and JJ are going to be the #2 and #3 offensive options in some order. Lopez is also our one true back to the basket, low post offensive big man, so he'll get touches when we want to get some easy buckets in the paint, and we'll probably run the offense through him for certain stretches.

I don't really see Wallace getting the ball over him. He'll be the 4th option, glue guy. He'll finish, he'll crash the boards, he'll make nice cuts to the basket, he'll be an extra ball handler, and he'll make some nice passes. He's got a decent post game too, so he'll probably get some touches on the block with Brook on the bench or if the matchup favors him. Overall, he'll do a bit of everything, depending on what we need, but he won't actually be a focal point of the offense. My guess is he'll mainly be an opportunistic scorer.

And that's the thing, he was the 4th option for Portland and he did not play well in it at all. He plays better with a bigger role.

The offense should run through Lopez when Deron, JJ are on the bench and the bench squad is in the game.

Watson, Brooks, Childress, Evans, Lopez - Bench mob.

Well, I think him not playing well in Portland was greatly exaggerated, especially his first year there and when their 2nd best player excluding Wallace played the same position as him with a somewhat similar style, it was going to be hard to maximize the impact of him or Batum.

[therealbig3]

Lopez and JJ are going to be the #2 and #3 offensive options in some order. Lopez is also our one true back to the basket, low post offensive big man, so he'll get touches when we want to get some easy buckets in the paint, and we'll probably run the offense through him for certain stretches.

I don't really see Wallace getting the ball over him. He'll be the 4th option, glue guy. He'll finish, he'll crash the boards, he'll make nice cuts to the basket, he'll be an extra ball handler, and he'll make some nice passes. He's got a decent post game too, so he'll probably get some touches on the block with Brook on the bench or if the matchup favors him. Overall, he'll do a bit of everything, depending on what we need, but he won't actually be a focal point of the offense. My guess is he'll mainly be an opportunistic scorer.

And that's the thing, he was the 4th option for Portland and he did not play well in it at all. He plays better with a bigger role.

The offense should run through Lopez when Deron, JJ are on the bench and the bench squad is in the game.

Watson, Brooks, Childress, Evans, Lopez - Bench mob.

Who said he didn't play well? His box score stats went down, because he was on a better team with better players, that doesn't mean he still didn't play well.

In 2011, in the 23 games he played with Portland, they were outscoring opponents by an average of 4.8 ppg, as opposed to the 1.5 ppg they did on the season. That means before he came along, they were only outscoring teams by 0.2 ppg. The +4.8 MOV would have tied for 8th in the league that year. Clearly, very strong impact from Wallace.

Last year, as pointed out, there was a logjam at his position, and he was dealing with injuries. His personal production didn't drop off all that much anyway, and imo, his athleticism and physical abilities were still fine, based on what I saw during his time here. His impact stats were still strong.

[therealbig3]

BTW, I was just thinking of something:

Lopez should work with Hakeem. I know he's got a nice post game already, but it wouldn't hurt to learn some tricks from the master. Mainly, he should pick up some tips on defense. Can't find a much better teacher than Hakeem.

Reportedly he did earlier in the summer for a couple weeks.

Oh wow, I didn't hear that. Good for him, that should help him.

[vincecarter4pres]

This is more or less the type of numbers I see our starting 5 getting:

Deron - 17/12/3/1.5
JJ - 16/4/4/1
Crash - 11/7/2.5/1.5/1
Hump - 8/8/1
Lopez - 22/7.5/2/1.5

[NyCeEvO]

BTW, I was just thinking of something:

Lopez should work with Hakeem. I know he's got a nice post game already, but it wouldn't hurt to learn some tricks from the master. Mainly, he should pick up some tips on defense. Can't find a much better teacher than Hakeem.

Reportedly he did earlier in the summer for a couple weeks.

Oh wow, I didn't hear that. Good for him, that should help him.

I thought he was with Hakeem last offseason, not this one. I could be wrong though...