Build around KG or DIRK?

Johnny Firpo · Post #81 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:21 pm

Dirk, but this is extremely close. Their overall impact is pretty much on the same level, but i agree with the notion that Dirk needs less to get far in the playoffs, and the fact that i would have one of the best closers in him in NBA history, just seals this for me. If i build a team, i want that go to guy first, and a defensive center next.

Jase · Post #82 » by **Jase** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:01 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:I have Dirk higher all-time, and frankly, Dirk is just a more impactful player. KG's 7 straight 1st round losses, and 3 straight years missing the playoffs in his prime, says it all.

*sigh*

Dirk >> Garnett
Garnett >>>> Dirk

And it takes more than one player to win a Playoff series. This has been well-documented. KG only had so much to work with.

Post #83 » by **Texas Chuck** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:07 am

Why do you sigh? You do realize his Minny resume is far and away the worst of any top 20 player of all time, right? Does he not have to take any responsibility for his team's epic failures? Are we really just going to say he played for a terrible organization and throw up our hands and say great job KG?

MisterWestside · Post #84 » by **MisterWestside** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:16 am

Texas Chuck wrote:Why do you sigh? You do realize his Minny resume is far and away the worst of any top 20 player of all time, right? Does he not have to take any responsibility for his team's epic failures? Are we really just going to say he played for a terrible organization and throw up our hands and say great job KG?

From the other Dirk vs. KG thread:

Texas Chuck wrote:Of course KG played brilliantly.

Seems that you agree, don't you?

Post #85 » by **Texas Chuck** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:30 am

I think he played brilliantly yes. I think it also shows that you cant build a team around KG like you can Dirk.

Oops you didnt really catch me did you? Instead you once again showcased you have no case for KG and just like to play gotcha or semantics to hide that.

MisterWestside · Post #86 » by **MisterWestside** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:39 am

Texas Chuck wrote:I think he played brilliantly yes. I think it also shows that you cant build a team around KG like you can Dirk.

And let me guess, you arrived to this conclusion because of his "team's epic failures", right? Even though you also admitted this much in the other thread:

You continue to produce little to no evidence showing KG equates to more wins but simply lots of evidence that his Minny teammates dont. Fine I concede that point. Ricky Davis and Marc Blount and Ervin Johnson and Marko Jarkic dont do a lot to contribute to winning. We agree.

So, if you agree that KG played brilliantly but his teammates "dont do a lot to contribute to winning", how the hell is KG's "team's epic failures" KG's fault?

Post #87 » by **Texas Chuck** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:43 am

No idea what you are trying to say but I do know this:

Does building around Dirk work? Undoubtably. 10x50, 2 finals trips and a championship

Does building around KG work? Dont know. We know it didnt work in Minny.

And since they are both top 15-20 guys all time Im shockingly going to go with the one where he has proven he can do it over the guy who hasnt.

MisterWestside · Post #88 » by **MisterWestside** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:01 am

Texas Chuck wrote:Does building around KG work? Dont know. We know it didnt work in Minny.

Once again:

So, if you agree that KG played brilliantly but his teammates "dont do a lot to contribute to winning", how the hell is KG's "team's epic failures" KG's fault?

Here's a tip: if you want to make the argument that KG is to blame for Minny not "winning", try not to admit that KG was the one who played well while the rest of his team was subpar.

G35 · Post #89 » by **G35** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:06 am

MisterWestside wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:I think he played brilliantly yes. I think it also shows that you cant build a team around KG like you can Dirk.

And let me guess, you arrived to this conclusion because of his "team's epic failures", right? Even though you also admitted this much in the other thread:

You continue to produce little to no evidence showing KG equates to more wins but simply lots of evidence that his Minny teammates dont. Fine I concede that point. Ricky Davis and Marc Blount and Ervin Johnson and Marko Jarkic dont do a lot to contribute to winning. We agree.

So, if you agree that KG played brilliantly but his teammates "dont do a lot to contribute to winning", how the hell is KG's "team's epic failures" KG's fault?

KG had some good teammates. You don't win 50 games year after year and not have good teammates. Because the Wolves won 50 games 3 of 4 years from 2000-2003. KG is not good enough to win 50 games by himself.

Otherwise then you have to wonder why he couldn't even win 40 games his last two years in Minnesota. People underrate the teams he had when it was really the teams after the 2005 season that really sucked.

Joe Smith
Tom Gugilotta
Terrell Brandon
Wally Z
Bobby Jackson

A trio of KG, Brandon, and Wally isn't necessarily a championship team but it can get out of the first round......

MisterWestside · Post #90 » by **MisterWestside** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:33 am

G35 wrote: KG is not good enough to win 50 games by himself.

No one is good enough to win 50 games by himself.

People underrate the teams he had when it was really the teams after the 2005 season that really sucked.

Which are the teams I'm talking about.

G35 · Post #91 » by **G35** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:24 am

MisterWestside wrote:
G35 wrote: KG is not good enough to win 50 games by himself.

No one is good enough to win 50 games by himself.

People underrate the teams he had when it was really the teams after the 2005 season that really sucked.

Which are the teams I'm talking about.

So then how did the Wolves win 50 games from 2000-2003 with players that don't help you win games.

Those teams show that KG's "impact" is no greater than anyone else's no matter what advanced stats tell you. I would rather have someone like Dirk who can carry a below average team with just his dominant offensive game than KG can with his all everything game. KG needs more high end talent than other stars......

ardee · Post #92 » by **ardee** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:27 am

G35 wrote:
MisterWestside wrote:
G35 wrote: KG is not good enough to win 50 games by himself.

No one is good enough to win 50 games by himself.

People underrate the teams he had when it was really the teams after the 2005 season that really sucked.

Which are the teams I'm talking about.

So then how did the Wolves win 50 games from 2000-2003 with players that don't help you win games.

Those teams show that KG's "impact" is no greater than anyone else's no matter what advanced stats tell you. I would rather have someone like Dirk who can carry a below average team with just his dominant offensive game than KG can with his all everything game. KG needs more high end talent than other stars......

His team-mates until 2004 ranged from horrid to passable to half-decent. In 2004, when he actually had two legitimate second options in Cassell and Sprewell, you saw what happened: top of the conference.

After that season, the management injured their collective cerebellums and decided to challenge Isiah Thomas for the worst moves of the decade. After 2004 his team-mates were just horrid.

Mattya · Post #93 » by **Mattya** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:16 am

G35 wrote:
MisterWestside wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:I think he played brilliantly yes. I think it also shows that you cant build a team around KG like you can Dirk.

And let me guess, you arrived to this conclusion because of his "team's epic failures", right? Even though you also admitted this much in the other thread:

You continue to produce little to no evidence showing KG equates to more wins but simply lots of evidence that his Minny teammates dont. Fine I concede that point. Ricky Davis and Marc Blount and Ervin Johnson and Marko Jarkic dont do a lot to contribute to winning. We agree.

So, if you agree that KG played brilliantly but his teammates "dont do a lot to contribute to winning", how the hell is KG's "team's epic failures" KG's fault?

KG had some good teammates. You don't win 50 games year after year and not have good teammates. Because the Wolves won 50 games 3 of 4 years from 2000-2003. KG is not good enough to win 50 games by himself.

Otherwise then you have to wonder why he couldn't even win 40 games his last two years in Minnesota. People underrate the teams he had when it was really the teams after the 2005 season that really sucked.

Joe Smith
Tom Gugilotta
Terrell Brandon
Wally Z
Bobby Jackson

A trio of KG, Brandon, and Wally isn't necessarily a championship team but it can get out of the first round......

Wow. You do realize Bobby Jackson wasn't Bobby Jackson untill he left Minnesota? Don't think so. Did you know Terrel Brandon was always injured in MN. Wally was consistently injured. Somehow that got left out?

SinceGatlingWasARookie · Post #94 » by **SinceGatlingWasARookie** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:55 am

G35 wrote:
KG had some good teammates. You don't win 50 games year after year and not have good teammates. Because the Wolves won 50 games 3 of 4 years from 2000-2003. KG is not good enough to win 50 games by himself.

Otherwise then you have to wonder why he couldn't even win 40 games his last two years in Minnesota. People underrate the teams he had when it was really the teams after the 2005 season that really sucked.

Joe Smith
Tom Gugilotta
Terrell Brandon
Wally Z
Bobby Jackson

A trio of KG, Brandon, and Wally isn't necessarily a championship team but it can get out of the first round......

There are other guys you could mention as well. But, they have to be healthy, in their prime and playing on the same team.

Bobby Jackson did not hit his short prime until he was is Sacramento a few years and even then what made Jackson good was that he was a quality 6th or 7th man.

Joe Smith is not a guy you want as as one of best 3 players. Smith never got much better than his rookie year with the Warriors. Smith did not play very well for the Twolves and was not always given minutes. Smith played the same position as KG.

Brandon was a legitimate 3rd player for a quality team but his career was ended midway through the 2001-2002 season and he was the 2nd best player when for a team to be really good he should be the 3rd best player.

Gugilotta never played with Brandon. Gugliotta was gone before KG was 22 years old.

Gugliotta was another Free agent the TWolves did not resign. I think Marc Cuban and a big market like Dallas could have kept some free agents. KG's contract got blamed but other teams find ways to keep their best players surrounded by expensive free agents. KG may not even have had the big contract when Gugliotta left.

Like Joe Smith Gugliotta played the same position as KG. Gugliotta could not stay healthy after leaving the Twolves so they were probably lucky to not resign him.

Wally Z should have been the scoring 6th man off the bench of a defensive team like Vinnie Johnson was on the bad boy Pistons. Wally shot not be a top 3 player on any team that hopes to win a playoff series. I don't know why Wally was on the 2002 All Star team.

Wally played with Brandon his rookie and 2nd season and half of his 3rd season.

SinceGatlingWasARookie · Post #95 » by **SinceGatlingWasARookie** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:10 am

G35 wrote: I would rather have someone like Dirk who can carry a below average team with just his dominant offensive game than KG can with his all everything game.

Find me a below average team that Dirk carried. Replace Dirk with prime Radmonovic and Madsen and the Dirk's Mavericks teams without Dirk are mediocre and win 41 games + - 5 games for year after year.

Replace Dirk with KG and the Mavericks win a few more games some years or a few less games some other years depending on how the teams are built. Nash could probably do more of what he did with Amare with KG than he could with Dirk. Mavs with an uninjured KG probably win the championship the year Dirk got injured against the Spurs team that won the championship.

DC2 · Post #96 » by **DC2** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:16 pm

Dirk please and thank you.

Swimmer · Post #97 » by **Swimmer** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:17 pm

The biggest question mark on KG's resume, IMO, is the 2004-05 season. The 2005-7 rosters were total garbage. And understandably, Spree went nuts, Cassell was disgruntled, Wally was coming off the bench. And yet, they had the talent on the team to make the playoffs (as they had, the year before). Is it KG's failure to win that extra game, to push them into the playoffs? Was the rest of the team really that bad?

ahonui06 · Post #98 » by **ahonui06** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:26 pm

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:
G35 wrote: I would rather have someone like Dirk who can carry a below average team with just his dominant offensive game than KG can with his all everything game.

Find me a below average team that Dirk carried. Replace Dirk with prime Radmonovic and Madsen and the Dirk's Mavericks teams without Dirk are mediocre and win 41 games + - 5 games for year after year.

Replace Dirk with KG and the Mavericks win a few more games some years or a few less games some other years depending on how the teams are built. Nash could probably do more of what he did with Amare with KG than he could with Dirk. Mavs with an uninjured KG probably win the championship the year Dirk got injured against the Spurs team that won the championship.

2006 Mavs were a below average team that DIRK carried all the way to the Finals. Starting lineup of Jason Terry, Adrian Griffin, Josh Howard, DIRK, DeSagana Diop. Pretty awful lineup.
2007 Mavs were a below average team that DIRK carried to 67 wins. Pretty much the same team again in 2007. Swap out Keith Van Horn for Austin Croshere and same squad.

Swimmer · Post #99 » by **Swimmer** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:10 pm

Prove it. I don't want their names. Show me that that lineup (2006 or 2007) was "awful" or even "below average."

Post #100 » by **Texas Chuck** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:23 pm

Swimmer wrote:Prove it. I don't want their names. Show me that that lineup (2006 or 2007) was "awful" or even "below average."

Swimmer,

You know he cant prove it. We cant remove them from that team. What we can do is look at their entire careers and figure that while some of them had career-type years in 06 (JHO and Diop come quickly to mind) most of them were average to below average players throughout their career. Stack being an exception but of course he wasnt the same guy in 06--he was very inefficient. JET of course being a really good player too.

Of course tho playing with Dirk they are going to look better as a whole which has kind of been my point all along. Players look better playing with Dirk than they do KG. Its why Im saying to build around him.