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OT: China-Japan dispute over island getting serious

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Re: OT: China-Japan dispute over island getting serious 

Post#41 » by aq_ua » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:32 pm

adrenaLINe wrote:
aq_ua wrote:I think the problem with that course of action is that it immediately alienates all of China's major trading partners. As much as China wants to believe it's a super power, it's economic growth derives largely from exports to developed nations and is otherwise very much agrarian. Using the stick might win a few quick battles, but it loses you quite a few important friends as well. Especially when wages in China are on the uptick while Thailand, Vietnam, and soon Myanmar will looks like very FDI friendly jurisdictions.



that may have been true even a few years ago...

but China is not a export dependent market anymore...

last year their governments domestic revenues was 1.6 trillion dollars..
China has come a long way, but let's face it, domestic consumption is still less than 40% of the economy.

their government has a 10 year plan, trying to shift out of the low cost labor intensive export markets since 2008]

and concentrate on their domestic service based economy

when the USA crashed the world markets.. they put 100 thousand factories out of business and 20 million workers out of work in China...

its not a shock China has never really made money on its export market... as the real money went to the multinationals... which China isnt being friendly too these days anyways...

these days 95% of the Chinese rich make their money selling to the Chinese domestic market...

only 5% make their money in exports

if you listen to politicians... it isnt Chinese dumping cheap goods so much these days... but Chinese not allowing access to their markets...

China is currently the number 1 Luxury market in world

and is expected to be the number 1 importer in the world by 2014

right around the time the Chinese government has stated they expect "not" to have any trade surpluses that year and in following years...

like others have said Chinese government is only concerned about keeping its power...

losing it would mean a bullet too the head...

so they have basically told the USA... a uneven recovery is better than a balanced recession...

in other words your on your own USA...were not helping

Most of those figures do not jibe with any statistic I have read. I understand what the five year plan laid out was, but it certainly didn't see to factor how bad Europe was going to be or how depressed the construction sector would get. It's getting more than a little off topic though.
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Re: OT: China-Japan dispute over island getting serious 

Post#42 » by aq_ua » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:42 pm

adrenaLINe wrote:
aq_ua wrote:. Especially when wages in China are on the uptick while Thailand, Vietnam, and soon Myanmar will looks like very FDI friendly jurisdictions.



Problem with this is China has had a "go out policy" for a long time now... in a effort to cool down their economy they have been trying to keep FDI out... and have their companies FDI in other countries...

goes along the same line... holding onto power...

with Real Estate going through the roof, and inflation high... that makes a angry population...hot money coming in is bad and not good if you want to hold onto power...

so China spent 2 years trying to cool down their construction and Real Estate Markets...



as the Chinese government cultivates relationships with these oversea Chinese
point is its not just about China anymore... its about their economic footprint and soft power around the world these days...

if you look at Thailand, Vietnam, and soon Myanmar

Thailand

about 14% of Thailand's population claim to be of Chinese ethnicity.[3] Extensive intermarriages with the Thais, especially in the past has resulted in many people who claim Chinese ethnicity with Thai ancestry, or mixed.[4] People of Chinese descent are concentrated in the coastal areas of Thailand, principally Bangkok.[5] They are well-represented in all levels of Thai society and play a leading role in business and politics.
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Vietnam

Restrictions were still maintained on Chinese employment in the security sphere (e.g., armed forces). All employment restrictions were removed in 1986. The Chinese were able to expand their economic influence after Vietnam launched an economic liberalization program late in the decade. Reports indicate that the economically advantaged Chinese control up to 50% of local commercial activities in Ho Chi Minh City.

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Myanmar

The Burmese Chinese dominate the Burmese economy although many enterprises today are co-owned by the military. Moreover, the Burmese Chinese have a disproportionately large presence in Burmese higher education, and make up a high percentage of the educated class in Burma.
Housing prices are back on the rise but the economy is still stalled. That just goes back to China's continual dependence in exports and hence reliance on FDI. Either way, there is no country on Earth that can prosper while alienating relationships with developed nations.
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Re: OT: China-Japan dispute over island getting serious 

Post#43 » by aq_ua » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:47 pm

DRK wrote:Ahh Japan. At again to their old tricks. Claiming land that isn't there's, and getting hostile in the process

As a Korean, I've heard this arguement 100's of times. Japan and Korea argueing over land, Japan and China, Japan and USA.... The country of Japan itself is running out of space, and due to it's position on the Tectonic plates, in the future it could become inhabitable... hence Japan is looking to snatch whatever land they can get.

Check out Socotra Rock dispute if you want to see hostility.
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Re: OT: China-Japan dispute over island getting serious 

Post#44 » by aq_ua » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:55 pm

matchman wrote:
aq_ua wrote:I think the problem with that course of action is that it immediately alienates all of China's major trading partners. As much as China wants to believe it's a super power, it's economic growth derives largely from exports to developed nations and is otherwise very much agrarian. Using the stick might win a few quick battles, but it loses you quite a few important friends as well. Especially when wages in China are on the uptick while Thailand, Vietnam, and soon Myanmar will looks like very FDI friendly jurisdictions.


I would say, CCP only cares as long as they are the only ruling power in the mainland and they can continue to make money out of it, they can care less on the economy if it goes bubble and more bubbles than that of Japan in the 90s. I just smelt "too big to fail but will fail gradually".

And the rudeness of Chinese tourists and investors are also driving the respect away from other countries. So many of us are claiming our country to be "It's so poor that what they only got is money". :wink:

The sad part of it all is that the people getting the headlines are a small subset of the population. Either hardcore nationalists or politicians with an agenda. Man on the street in any of the geographies involved could care less about a couple of tiny bits of land and just want to get on with their lives peacefully.
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Re: OT: China-Japan dispute over island getting serious 

Post#45 » by matchman » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:59 pm

1) Don't read too much on the figures provided by Chinese government, the numbers may be way exaggerating.
2) The fact is the growth of GDP for 8% per year is a myth, when people are crazy on the property market you know something is wrong. And most importantly 8% growth also means to settle 20 Million of University graduate to enter the labour market per year, so when they fail to fulfill this growth it's another instability to the society and also the economy.
3) I still think China is going on a very similar route like Japan during the 80s-90s, and it's not a good sign at all.
4) For the global economy relying on China, hmm good luck on that, I would rather place my bet on Brazil, Russia or India.
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Re: OT: China-Japan dispute over island getting serious 

Post#46 » by matchman » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:06 pm

aq_ua wrote:
matchman wrote:
aq_ua wrote:I think the problem with that course of action is that it immediately alienates all of China's major trading partners. As much as China wants to believe it's a super power, it's economic growth derives largely from exports to developed nations and is otherwise very much agrarian. Using the stick might win a few quick battles, but it loses you quite a few important friends as well. Especially when wages in China are on the uptick while Thailand, Vietnam, and soon Myanmar will looks like very FDI friendly jurisdictions.


I would say, CCP only cares as long as they are the only ruling power in the mainland and they can continue to make money out of it, they can care less on the economy if it goes bubble and more bubbles than that of Japan in the 90s. I just smelt "too big to fail but will fail gradually".

And the rudeness of Chinese tourists and investors are also driving the respect away from other countries. So many of us are claiming our country to be "It's so poor that what they only got is money". :wink:

The sad part of it all is that the people getting the headlines are a small subset of the population. Either hardcore nationalists or politicians with an agenda. Man on the street in any of the geographies involved could care less about a couple of tiny bits of land and just want to get on with their lives peacefully.


I agree with you totally, but I also have heard of the impact of critical mass, if 5% of population believes in all those nationalist/right wing bullchit then it could become doomsday in East Asia one day. The shadow of propaganda may gradually decide both nations' future. And of course I don't wish it to happen at least in our generation. :pray:

The CCP is so weak that they are trying to use poison (nationalism) to save themselves, maybe if war doesn't happen at all it's a good sign to Chinese people since it may lead to a chance to have a change (if you look into those protesters in mainland you may see some banners mentioning Political REFORM, which they may never have a chance to do so if it's not under the name of "Patriotism")
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Re: OT: China-Japan dispute over island getting serious 

Post#47 » by Starks1994 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:10 pm

How much longer will the CCP continue to be the governing body of China? Not too long ago there was a great article in Foreign Policy.com about the PLA in a position to really control the country if it had to. Evan though social media is monitored by the CCP the growing rift between China's ultra rich and working class is something that seems to be the formula for an organic revolution.
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Re: OT: China-Japan dispute over island getting serious 

Post#48 » by adrenaLINe » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:19 am

aq_ua wrote:
adrenaLINe wrote:
aq_ua wrote:I think the problem with that course of action is that it immediately alienates all of China's major trading partners. As much as China wants to believe it's a super power, it's economic growth derives largely from exports to developed nations and is otherwise very much agrarian. Using the stick might win a few quick battles, but it loses you quite a few important friends as well. Especially when wages in China are on the uptick while Thailand, Vietnam, and soon Myanmar will looks like very FDI friendly jurisdictions.



that may have been true even a few years ago...

but China is not a export dependent market anymore...

last year their governments domestic revenues was 1.6 trillion dollars..
China has come a long way, but let's face it, domestic consumption is still less than 40% of the economy.

their government has a 10 year plan, trying to shift out of the low cost labor intensive export markets since 2008]

and concentrate on their domestic service based economy

when the USA crashed the world markets.. they put 100 thousand factories out of business and 20 million workers out of work in China...

its not a shock China has never really made money on its export market... as the real money went to the multinationals... which China isnt being friendly too these days anyways...

these days 95% of the Chinese rich make their money selling to the Chinese domestic market...

only 5% make their money in exports

if you listen to politicians... it isnt Chinese dumping cheap goods so much these days... but Chinese not allowing access to their markets...

China is currently the number 1 Luxury market in world

and is expected to be the number 1 importer in the world by 2014

right around the time the Chinese government has stated they expect "not" to have any trade surpluses that year and in following years...

like others have said Chinese government is only concerned about keeping its power...

losing it would mean a bullet too the head...

so they have basically told the USA... a uneven recovery is better than a balanced recession...

in other words your on your own USA...were not helping

Most of those figures do not jibe with any statistic I have read. I understand what the five year plan laid out was, but it certainly didn't see to factor how bad Europe was going to be or how depressed the construction sector would get. It's getting more than a little off topic though.



you are right we are getting a little off topic...

the figures I posted up... I have links to the articles... if you would like to see them...

like I said before China does not have to save the world... it just needs to save itself...


worst case China can borrow money and pump it into its economy if it uses up its 3 trillion in reserves..... its not in the situation like the USA

since 2008 the USA has been pumping in no less than 600 billion a year to prop up your economy,...money it dosent have...where last year the US Fed, bought 61% of the treasury debt issued by the Treasury Department

while since 2010 China has been trying to take out the credit and money from its market doing a host of things like raising mortgage deposit amounts, sales and income taxes, raising bank reserves ratios...

problem with their stimulus it worked too well


here is an article that kind of explains what im getting at...

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New Rules For Western Banks, Same Hypocrisy

Written by Jeff Nielson Monday, 27 June 2011

Bloomberg and other U.S. propaganda outlets are trumpeting the news that Western bankers and (so-called)‘regulators’ have reached a deal on new capital requirements for these fraud-factories.

First a look at the numbers. Some Western banks will be forced to raise their capital requirements by “up to 2.5%”. In fact, some of these banking oligopolies will only have to raise their capital by a mere 1%, while some of these fraud-factories won’t be required to raise any additional capital at all. To understand how recklessly inadequate these new rules actually are requires some context.

To begin with, the current capital requirement for these big-banks (who have placed bets totaling roughly $1.5 quadrillion in the derivatives market alone) is a microscopic 2% of “assets”. Let me repeat this: the same insanely reckless, pathologically greedy bankers who have placed bets amounting to 20 times the size of the entire global economy are currently able to “back” only 2% of those bets (and the actual value of that “2% in assets” is highly suspect).

Bankster apologists will argue that with increased capital requirements of “up to 2.5%”, that this would more than double capital levels for the (minority of) banks which have the maximum reserve-levels imposed upon them – and thus this “fixes” that problem. To rebut such nonsense requires some additional context. In that respect, China’s banking system is the perfect example.

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Re: OT: China-Japan dispute over island getting serious 

Post#49 » by j127 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:32 am

Japan has too many territorial disputes with it's neighbours -- China/Taiwan, South Korea and Russia. After Japan lost WWII, it was supposed to cede all territory it gained back to what it was in 1895. And in 1895, Japan didn't claim the Diaoyutai islands. Japanese nationalists are honestly such a huge headache.

They squarely lost WWII, and instead of trying to improve itself now, it's trying to externalize it's problems by constantly provoking China and South Korea.

When Japan defaults on its debts in the future and can't even pay for national defence, I want to see what'll happen then, because I know the US won't go to war for Japan against China.
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Re: OT: China-Japan dispute over island getting serious 

Post#50 » by Mr. Natural » Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:58 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCsezk9cOeo[/youtube]
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Re: OT: China-Japan dispute over island getting serious 

Post#51 » by J-Rich- » Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:59 am

China would squish Japan and its ally like bugs

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