Build around KG or DIRK?

[MisterWestside]

2006 Mavs were a below average team that DIRK carried all the way to the Finals. Starting lineup of Jason Terry, Adrian Griffin, Josh Howard, DIRK, DeSagana Diop. Pretty awful lineup.

Not that you say anything meaningful in the first place, but calling a lineup that contains a young Jason Terry and Josh Howard "pretty awful" both shows your embarrassing bias and lack of credibility. Then add Diop/Dampier who were mainly there to anchor the team's defense and did a good job at it.

The homerism is tiresome.

[MisterWestside]

Players look better playing with Dirk than they do KG.

Using career production with/without the star player isn't a clear-cut way of showing this, since things like age, role in system, coaching, and on-court fit are all important. But alot of players had career years in Minny (by some box metrics) next to KG, including Sam Cassell, Wally Z, Tom Gugliotta, Sam Mitchell, Joe Smith, Dean Garrett, Troy Hudson, Doug West, Fred Hoiberg, Michael Olowokandi, Eddie Griffin, Chris Carr, Cherokee Parks, etc. Players like Terrell Brandon and Malik Sealy rejuvenated their careers with KG.

Do you want more, or do you just enjoy making baseless statements that other posters have to verify?

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I would rather have someone like Dirk who can carry a below average team with just his dominant offensive game than KG can with his all everything game.

Find me a below average team that Dirk carried. Replace Dirk with prime Radmonovic and Madsen and the Dirk's Mavericks teams without Dirk are mediocre and win 41 games + - 5 games for year after year.

Replace Dirk with KG and the Mavericks win a few more games some years or a few less games some other years depending on how the teams are built. Nash could probably do more of what he did with Amare with KG than he could with Dirk. Mavs with an uninjured KG probably win the championship the year Dirk got injured against the Spurs team that won the championship.

2006 Mavs were a below average team that DIRK carried all the way to the Finals. Starting lineup of Jason Terry, Adrian Griffin, Josh Howard, DIRK, DeSagana Diop. Pretty awful lineup.
2007 Mavs were a below average team that DIRK carried to 67 wins. Pretty much the same team again in 2007. Swap out Keith Van Horn for Austin Croshere and same squad.

Those aren't bad rosters. Getting to the finals with that roster in 2006 was impressive for Dirk but not any more impressive than KG getting to the Western Conference finals with a weaker roster.

On Paper the 2007 Mavs team that lost in the first round was better than the team that went to the finals because Howard and Harris improved. Howard went to the 2007 All-Star game. Terry was not far below All-Star level. Decent defensive centers are hard to come by. Dampier and Diop wasn't bad. I think Avery Johnson made a mistake

Buckner, Griffin, Daniels, Devean George, Van Horn, Croshere, and past his prime Stackhouse sounds like a Twolves team. Those guys are not trash they just should not be among your top 3 players.

[ahonui06]

2006 Mavs were a below average team that DIRK carried all the way to the Finals. Starting lineup of Jason Terry, Adrian Griffin, Josh Howard, DIRK, DeSagana Diop. Pretty awful lineup.

Not that you say anything meaningful in the first place, but calling a lineup that contains a young Jason Terry and Josh Howard "pretty awful" both shows your embarrassing bias and lack of credibility. Then add Diop/Dampier who were mainly there to anchor the team's defense and did a good job at it.

The homerism is tiresome.

Don't make me laugh. Diop/Dampier aren't good at all. Those 2006 and 2007 rosters weren't good.

[kasino]

they weren't good at all?
could say not all-star filled but simply bad to average?
both seasons good defensive ratings/ Dirk didn't score every point or make every pass and 1st and 2nd in offense
top 10 reboinding/efficency and one of the better shot blocking teams in the leage, while your star big isn't a shot blocker

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Don't make me laugh. Diop/Dampier aren't good at all. Those 2006 and 2007 rosters weren't good.

Cherry picked stats for Damp, 800 minutes played, 11.8 rebounds per 36 minutes, 1.9 blocks per 36 minutes.
You think those are garbage stats?
Only 13 players since 1999-2000 have managed to match those per 36 minute numbers that Damp had in 2005-06
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=per

A lot of teams this year would love to have 2005-2006 Dampier on their roster.
Mediocre big Centers are hard to find. What Center that KG played with in Minnesota do you think was as good 2005-2006 Dampier? Then to have shot blocking machine Diop as a back up which allowed Dampier to not worry about fouls, What a luxury. Then they could swing Dirk or Van Horn to Center if they wanted offense.

Chery picking Stats for Diop since 1999 has even less guys who got 8.8 rebounds and 3.4 blocks per 36. Only 11 guys did that.

[Texas Chuck]

Players look better playing with Dirk than they do KG.

Using career production with/without the star player isn't a clear-cut way of showing this, since things like age, role in system, coaching, and on-court fit are all important. But alot of players had career years in Minny (by some box metrics) next to KG, including Sam Cassell, Wally Z, Tom Gugliotta, Sam Mitchell, Joe Smith, Dean Garrett, Troy Hudson, Doug West, Fred Hoiberg, Michael Olowokandi, Eddie Griffin, Chris Carr, Cherokee Parks, etc. Players like Terrell Brandon and Malik Sealy rejuvenated their careers with KG.

Do you want more, or do you just enjoy making baseless statements that other posters have to verify?

This is the last statement Im going to make in regards to teammates because its a stupid pointless argument.

So KG took all-stars and solid veterans and they all had career years or rejuvenated their careers and he still couldnt get them out of the 1st round? You cant have it both ways. Either KG had terrible teammates who played terribly which has been your point throughout both threads or he made them all play at their very best.

If they played at their best with KG then close the thread Dirk wins because they still couldnt win and if they didnt play their best then Dirk wins again because he consistently elevated his teammates play.

Again I think teammates is a pathetic weak argument that only comes into play in Dirk v KG. In no other player debate are 90% of the posts supporting one of the players a referendum on their teammates instead of talking about the actual player.

[MisterWestside]

So KG took all-stars and solid veterans and they all had career years or rejuvenated their careers and he still couldnt get them out of the 1st round?

You don't even know 3/4 of the players that I named in that post Most of them were just good enough to pick up a paycheck in the league. Some of them couldn't even stay in the league outside of Minny.

But you keep missing the basic point: KG did make his teammates better. Taking putrid supporting casts and making them competitive or playoff contenders qualifies, and you don't have to win a Finals/WCF to see this.

In no other player debate are 90% of the posts supporting one of the players a referendum on their teammates instead of talking about the actual player.

Except you don't talk about the actual player. At all. You look at team wins/team playoff wins and make your comparison. Which you can't do because these player don't all play with the same talent and organization.

[G35]

Players look better playing with Dirk than they do KG.

Using career production with/without the star player isn't a clear-cut way of showing this, since things like age, role in system, coaching, and on-court fit are all important. But alot of players had career years in Minny (by some box metrics) next to KG, including Sam Cassell, Wally Z, Tom Gugliotta, Sam Mitchell, Joe Smith, Dean Garrett, Troy Hudson, Doug West, Fred Hoiberg, Michael Olowokandi, Eddie Griffin, Chris Carr, Cherokee Parks, etc. Players like Terrell Brandon and Malik Sealy rejuvenated their careers with KG.

Do you want more, or do you just enjoy making baseless statements that other posters have to verify?

Terrell Brandon was an All Star with Cleveland. Before KG

Chauncey Billups was an All Star with Detroit. After KG

Stephon Marbury was an All Star with NJ and Phx. Post KG

Rasho Nesterovic another Minnesota alum was the starting center for the SA Spurs 2005 championship team and according to PER played his best with SA.


That list you made is actually a good list to keep around for all those who think KG never played with anyone. KG's teams were not nearly as bad as people want to make them seem. The Wolves tried to build around KG. It didn't work. I personally believe it's because KG doesn't have a defined role as the big man. Instead he's doing guard and swing man duties. That's all well and good being versatile but then that blurs the line of what everyone else should be doing. If KG is bringing the ball up what the hell are Billups, Marbury, or Brandon going to be doing? If KG is guarding PG's on the pnr is Chauncey defending the oppositions PF/C now? Being versatile is handy to have but having defined roles is better......

[MisterWestside]

Terrell Brandon was an All Star with Cleveland. Before KG

Chauncey Billups was an All Star with Detroit. After KG

Stephon Marbury was an All Star with NJ and Phx. Post KG

Rasho Nesterovic another Minnesota alum was the starting center for the SA Spurs 2005 championship team and according to PER played his best with SA.

Brandon was injury prone by the time he got to Minny (and he still had some productive seasons there). Billups JUST put together his best season in Minny before going to Detroit. Same with Rasho before he went to the Spurs. And Marbury Yes, such a wonderful, team-first guy.

Don't know why posters use this argument anyway. It's one of the crudest forms of "on-off" and we can actually use the on-off data that's available (and, by the way, that's just one part of analysis. Not a be-all, end-all).

Being versatile is handy to have but having defined roles is better......

KG played most of his minutes at his position. So relax. That video ardee provided simply showed that he was more than capable of filling other roles if players had bad games (such as Cassell in that clip). Coaches put KG in that role and he did what he was asked.

[Mattya]

Players look better playing with Dirk than they do KG.

Using career production with/without the star player isn't a clear-cut way of showing this, since things like age, role in system, coaching, and on-court fit are all important. But alot of players had career years in Minny (by some box metrics) next to KG, including Sam Cassell, Wally Z, Tom Gugliotta, Sam Mitchell, Joe Smith, Dean Garrett, Troy Hudson, Doug West, Fred Hoiberg, Michael Olowokandi, Eddie Griffin, Chris Carr, Cherokee Parks, etc. Players like Terrell Brandon and Malik Sealy rejuvenated their careers with KG.

Do you want more, or do you just enjoy making baseless statements that other posters have to verify?

Terrell Brandon was an All Star with Cleveland. Before KG

Chauncey Billups was an All Star with Detroit. After KG

Stephon Marbury was an All Star with NJ and Phx. Post KG

Rasho Nesterovic another Minnesota alum was the starting center for the SA Spurs 2005 championship team and according to PER played his best with SA.


That list you made is actually a good list to keep around for all those who think KG never played with anyone. KG's teams were not nearly as bad as people want to make them seem. The Wolves tried to build around KG. It didn't work. I personally believe it's because KG doesn't have a defined role as the big man. Instead he's doing guard and swing man duties. That's all well and good being versatile but then that blurs the line of what everyone else should be doing. If KG is bringing the ball up what the hell are Billups, Marbury, or Brandon going to be doing? If KG is guarding PG's on the pnr is Chauncey defending the oppositions PF/C now? Being versatile is handy to have but having defined roles is better......

Rarely have I seen so much wrong in one post. Good job.

Billups career was rejuvenated in MN. I guess since he improved even more after he left is a slight to KG. What a dumb statement. Marbury was never as good as his time in MN, CLEARLY. Terrell Brandon was injured in MN. Rasho was a decent player but just because he was on a championship team doesn't mean much when you have Tim Duncan, Manu, TP and one of the greatest coaches ever. The Wolves teams were as bad as people say. Then you go on to knock a guy because he is so versatile. Why did he bring the ball up the court with those guys on his team? He would because his teams were injured. Who would guard the opposing teams PF/C if KG was guarding the point guard? Maybe it was Rasho. Maybe it was Joe Smith. Just because KG is guarding the point guard, which usually means it was the best player on the other team, doesn't require the team to put their point guard on the other teams big men. That isn't a rule, and I'm guessing your just exaggerating to try help make you point. How didn't he have a defined role. It was to be the focal point on offense and guard the other teams best player when he had to, which ever position. I would rather have KG guarding a perimeter player and Joe smith and Earvin Johnson guard the post than have Troy Hudson try to check anyone, or Wally, or in a suit Sam Cassell, or 35 year old Spree, or Ricky Davis. Keep trying to act like KG didn't have a defined role and hurt his team because of his versatility. Just a silly silly argument that either shows your bias or your lack of watching basketball back then.

[Texas Chuck]

Mr. W. I already posted this but lets go over it again:

PS career stats

KG 22/11/52% TS or basically the same as his RS stats except with reduced efficiency as you would tend to expect against the better competition found in the PS


Dirk 26/10/58% TS compared to 23/8/58% TS so Dirk improved on his production without losing any efficiency against the better competition.

KG's best playoff years (please note Im not pulling any data for years either guy got eliminated in the 1st round)

2004 24/15/51% TS over 18 games
2008 19/10/54% over 26 games

Dirk's

2006 27/12/60% TS over 23 games
2011 28/8/61% TS over 21 games

So Dirk is a better PS player for his career and at their peaks.

If you want to argue KG is a better RS performer I think you can make a really good argument for it tho Dirk is close. But when it comes to PS play which is where elite players are measured it becomes crystal clear Dirk is the man.

[G35]

Terrell Brandon was an All Star with Cleveland. Before KG

Chauncey Billups was an All Star with Detroit. After KG

Stephon Marbury was an All Star with NJ and Phx. Post KG

Rasho Nesterovic another Minnesota alum was the starting center for the SA Spurs 2005 championship team and according to PER played his best with SA.

Brandon was injury prone by the time he got to Minny (and he still had some productive seasons there). Billups JUST put together his best season in Minny before going to Detroit. Same with Rasho before he went to the Spurs. And Marbury Yes, such a wonderful, team-first guy.

Don't know why posters use this argument anyway. It's one of the crudest forms of "on-off" and we can actually use the on-off data that's available (and, by the way, that's just one part of analysis. Not a be-all, end-all).

Being versatile is handy to have but having defined roles is better......

KG played most of his minutes at his position. So relax. That video ardee provided simply showed that he was more than capable of filling other roles if players had bad games (such as Cassell in that clip). Coaches put KG in that role and he did what he was asked.

Yes it is a crude way of analyzing but you can't throw a list of names up and have KG take all the credit for anything they did productive. Then you make excuses for why anyone that was productive before or after KG. And lets not get into character. You can talk about Marbury being selfish but KG is the one that signed that cap crippling contract. When you want to make that kind of money you should at least be making perennial playoff runs, not going out in the first round every year. Signing for that kind of money means no excuses, the expectations have been raised. IF you are that good, meet them. Bring value to the contract. KG has earned the most money by far of any player in NBA history.

You're right all these statements we make are only one part (so when does someone get it all together anyway? We need to get EVERY single part of analysis so we can do a proper comparison.) on analyzing a player.

As far as what position KG plays, that's a good question. The problem I have with many posters is they want to play both sides of the argument when it suits. No that's not how it's played. KG is lauded for being the most versatile big man ever. That he can guard positions 1-5 and facilitate an offense. While that's all well and good, but defined roles will make a team run smoother and create a higher ceiling. Perhaps that's why it was hard to build around KG because the Wolves weren't sure what they needed to put around him because he was playing all over the court. He's not Lebron.

In Boston he doesn't facilitate the offense. He doesn't need to. They put players in specific roles and the team thrived. Rondo was the PG, Allen the SG, Pierce the SF, KG the PF, and Perkins the C. Everyone knows what they should be doing and it works well. That's how you build a team. Just like with Dirk who stayed in a defined role and they matched the pieces around him. You can see that it works and you don't have to have upper tier talent.....

[Mattya]

Mr. W. I already posted this but lets go over it again:

PS career stats

KG 22/11/52% TS or basically the same as his RS stats except with reduced efficiency as you would tend to expect against the better competition found in the PS


Dirk 26/10/58% TS compared to 23/8/58% TS so Dirk improved on his production without losing any efficiency against the better competition.

KG's best playoff years (please note Im not pulling any data for years either guy got eliminated in the 1st round)

2004 24/15/51% TS over 18 games
2008 19/10/54% over 26 games

Dirk's

2006 27/12/60% TS over 23 games
2011 28/8/61% TS over 21 games

So Dirk is a better PS player for his career and at their peaks.

If you want to argue KG is a better RS performer I think you can make a really good argument for it tho Dirk is close. But when it comes to PS play which is where elite players are measured it becomes crystal clear Dirk is the man.

No defensive statistics? No assist statistics? hmm.... do you consider defense not important to build around?

[Texas Chuck]

Well defense can only really be measured as part of a team and every time I bring team into it you guys kill me with excuses based on terrible teammates. Obv KG is a better defender tho so thats why I give him the edge over Dirk in the RS. I dont think the defensive difference he brings is enough to make up for the significant difference in production in the PS because Dirk's lesser defense is easier to overcome by putting him on the worst big man offensively or playing zone.

If you can prove that KG's indvidual defensive advantage makes him a better PS player than Dirk by all means bring it and I will give it due consideration. I just think defense is so much team-based that KG's advantage here can be lessened.

I didnt mention assists tho KG does avg 1 more per game in the PS. However he certainly isnt creating better looks for teammates than Dirk is. I was also trying to avoid any mention of teammates again because I am so tired of hearing the excuses.

[Mattya]

It is absolutely pointless arguing with someone when they are being so dense. You keep on wanting people to prove their points but you have yet to prove any of your points beside that Dirk can shoot a better percentage than KG. You keep on wanting to throw out teammates just because it doesn't help your argument. You have to prove that for it to be thrown out. Just because your team isn't great on defense doesn't mean you can't have a huge defensive impact. Shutting down another teams best player is a great way to hurt the other team, but if the other team has options that can score, how can that be held against you? It can't. If you have a team with Derek Fisher, Kevin Martin, Mike Miller, prime Tim Duncan, and Memo Okur do you really think your going to have a top rated defense? I sure hope you don't. Somehow KG has won defensive player of the year, finished second in voting to Dikembe Mutombo, was always on the Defensive first team and widely regarded as one of the best defenders of the past 10 years but you want to claim because his team didn't have great defensive stats that he isn't a great defensive player but then completely disregard his teammates quality, sounds pretty bogus to me. Sure Dirk is a better shooter, but KG's passing is an advantage against Dirk in this debate. KG used to be double and tripled team all the time and his scoring and passing out of the mid post creates just as many good looks.

then you keep on calling out people for making excuses yet are completely oblivious that you keep on making excuses for Dirk as well.

[MisterWestside]

Yes it is a crude way of analyzing but you can't throw a list of names up and have KG take all the credit for anything they did productive. Then you make excuses for why anyone that was productive before or after KG.

You know, I did make this clear earlier when I posted that list:

Using career production with/without the star player isn't a clear-cut way of showing this, since things like age, role in system, coaching, and on-court fit are all important.

But since others wanted to contend that KG didn't make his teammates better, I posted that to show he did: by taking on the brunt of the offense and allowing his teammates to settle into more specialized roles of production.

When you want to make that kind of money you should at least be making perennial playoff runs, not going out in the first round every year. Signing for that kind of money means no excuses, the expectations have been raised. IF you are that good, meet them. Bring value to the contract.

And he did. He played as he should; his teammates didn't. And he was still earning plenty of money in Boston. The difference is that playing who were earning the same or even less money than his Minny teammates were way more productive.

Perhaps that's why it was hard to build around KG because the Wolves weren't sure what they needed to put around him because he was playing all over the court.

Did you read what I posted earlier? He played mostly in position; the only times he didn't was when he had to pick up the slack of others. It's why his usg in Minny was a little higher than in Boston, where he didn't have to do as much with more talented players around him.

[Texas Chuck]

MAttya,

Calm down for a second please. Im not saying any of what you claim I am saying. Of course KG is a great individual defender even on teams that arent great defensively. Okay. I dont know how to be more clear. I have never said he wasnt a great defender. I dont like being called dense when you are missrepresenting my position. Feel free however to call me dense about things I actually post.

And what excuses have I made for Dirk? I mentioned he didnt always have great teammates either but you wont find a single post where I excused Dirk for individual or team failures. I haven't ignored or tried to cover up where Dirk's game isnt up to KG's level either.

[Mattya]

MAttya,

Calm down for a second please. Im not saying any of what you claim I am saying. Of course KG is a great individual defender even on teams that arent great defensively. Okay. I dont know how to be more clear. I have never said he wasnt a great defender. I dont like being called dense when you are missrepresenting my position. Feel free however to call me dense about things I actually post.

And what excuses have I made for Dirk? I mentioned he didnt always have great teammates either but you wont find a single post where I excused Dirk for individual or team failures. I haven't ignored or tried to cover up where Dirk's game isnt up to KG's level either.

Unbelievable. What else should I consider someone who has consistently ignored or deemed pointless other people's arguments and then demanded proof without providing any themselves other than dense? You have repeatedly discounted KG's defense in the "PS," which doesn't even makes sense, and then make an excuse for Dirk, since you can hide him. By your terms we can give greater credit to KG's offense because of his teams offensive ranking. Which then takes away the only way Dirk can be considered better. You keep making excuses as to why Dirks scoring shadows his defense and outweighs KG's elite defense, passing, rebounding, and very good scoring. So I guess its also Dirks fault that his team lost to Miami in the finals.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Terrell Brandon was an All Star with Cleveland. Before KG

Chauncey Billups was an All Star with Detroit. After KG

Stephon Marbury was an All Star with NJ and Phx. Post KG

Rasho Nesterovic another Minnesota alum was the starting center for the SA Spurs 2005 championship team and according to PER played his best with SA.


.

Rasho had not yet become the solidly mediocre player he was with the spurs but he may have been KGs best Center. Other contenders, are Garrett and 36 year old Ervin Johnson. Did Gugliotta play Center with KG? He plays the same position as KG but he was one of the 3 best teammates that KG ever had so they must have found a way to play him with KG. Rasho left as a free agent.

Brandon probably was KG's best teammate. Dallas always had a quality 3rd player and a bunch of decent players.

Cassell is the next best player but that did not last long. Sprewell had one good playoffs.

Starbury was a talented knucklehead. Immature very young Starbury played with young KG and Gugliotta. 21 year old Marbury was traded for Brandon and that improved the Twolves. Gugliotta got injured and left.

Chauncy Billups was a slow developer who signed as a free agent with the Pistons before he really got good. Bobby Jackson was another player who was a slow developer who left before he became good. Of course the Dirk fans can blame KG for Billups and Jackson not being good as Twolves.