Texas Chuck wrote:Wow tsherkin you are killing me. I would not have thought my posts on Dirk to be so out of left field as to be completely irrelevant. Not sure why we cant talk about Dirk in a Dirk v KG thread but whatever.
Let me explain, then.
We're having a discussion, more particularly a comparative debate, about two players. That means we're trying to isolate the differences in their respective games to see who is better, if possible. Talking about Dirk's performance on teams that were blatantly superior to any he had pre-Boston, 2004 aside, doesn't really add anything to the conversation. Yes, Dirk went through some significant roster upheaval and some coaching changes and it's impressive that he kept the Mavs as good as they were during that time frame, but it's not salient to this discussion. Us talking about KG? That is relevant, especially in the context of a claim by drza that his APM suggests he's the most dominant playoff performer in a given period. That necessitates discussion of his defensive impact, his offensive impact, the team context in which he played and the competition he faced.
But what Dirk did with a better team? That's not really relevant. We established previously that Dirk was an elite scorer, one of the best ever in the postseason, and that this is a decided advantage he has over Garnett. We established that, pre-Boston, he enjoyed more team success than has Garnett (and that including Boston, they're still roughly equivalent). Discussing 05-07 adds nothing to the table, really; advancing the general board opinion of Dirk is great and all, but it's not germane to what we're trying to find out here.
Now, earlier, we'd had a question come up as to whether or not Garnett's defensive dominance can outweigh his considerably inferior offense (directly compared to Dirk), which is what spawned the majority of our recent discussion, these past few pages. Previously, the posts itt have been a mix of useful and non-useful, no doubt, and there are some odd opinions on both sides. Yours regarding KG's situation is at least as odd and out of sorts (prior to you overturning it, that is) as those regarding Dirk, but there are more relevant issues on the table and we're already unnecessarily detouring to discuss even this because you got out of sorts when I called your comment irrelevant without even resorting to any kind of personal connection.
Its also hilarious to me that we both claim drza's post represents our own feelings in regard to Dirk's team with the added caveat from me that the first "moneyball" attempt didnt quite get it right and that the 06 finals trip was more the outlier than the 07 GSW meltdown.
I know, right?
But I agree with you: 06 was a surprise and Dirk's teams in that time frame weren't what I'd typically call title casts. They were strong supporting casts for a decent playoff run, which is (07 aside) what they got. Dirk went super saiyan on the league in the playoffs and then tanked out in the Finals when Miami used what was then his weakness against him (aww yeah quicker defensive forwards!) and his supporting cast came up cold, particularly in 4Qs and OT. Josh Howard, I'm looking at you, jackass. Also, the Dallas defensive game plan meant they paid an inordinate amount of attention to Shaq who, despite his numbers, changed that series. The Mavs couldn't do much because they couldn't help off of Shaq and they were frequently shading him, so Wade would split the double coverage he got when he and Haslem hit the high mid or side screen, and when Wade went baseline, he forced the issue to the point where he, Shaq or the shooter in the weakside pocket were getting a look... and a good one. Plus, Dallas just couldn't guard him for beans out on the wing, he was busting doubles and slithering to the rim all series long. Fans complained that he was getting bogus calls, but he really wasn't, he was just driving relentlessly and unstoppably, and he was getting fouled. Then Dallas lost its composure after a series of failures and bad beats, and Miami's defense (which was 9th in the RS) ground them to a halt.
07... same deal. Small, quick forwards hampered Dirk. Terry was comparatively quiet, Stackhouse sucked (is that redundant?), and Dallas was epic-fail on offense in the opener and the closing game. Dirk struggled, but he wasn't the only one and they faced a team that was talented enough to exploit their weaknesses and to beat them. It looked worse than it was given Dallas' regular season performance and Dirk's MVP, but still, it happens, and the Mavs were a team much dependent upon jumpers at that stage.
In any case, is it relevant? Not really, since in the only pre-Boston period where he had a comparable roster, Garnett performed at much the same level as Dirk... taking his team to the WCFs. He had some personal struggles along the way (as I outlined previously), but neither Latrell Sprewell nor Sam Cassell were considerably better than anything on the Mavs roster between 05 and 07, so claims related to that period of time don't seem to add value to the conversation, which is what I said before.
That's all.
And yeah I fell like I should know more about the Mavericks considering I have obsessively followed them since Harp's rookie year and was a fan from the dawn of the franchise. I dont mean to demean your knowledge of them in any way. Just like I disagree with a lot of what Mattya has posted itt but I would defer to his Wolves knowledge as being greater than mine. I intended no slight to you.
I know you didn't intend to slight, but you did. I'd rather next time you made comments that showed where you disagreed, rather than making a stand-off remark about my knowledge compared to yours based on time spent as a fan.
