DavidStern wrote:therealbig3 wrote:I have to ask why Barkley over T-Mac? As bastillon pointed out, Barkley wasn't having super high impact, and a large part of that was because of his defense being a negative.
I disagree.
Barkley's defense wasn't negative in 1993. He was highly motivated then and played at least good D. Look, how many players were negative on D and averaged 1.6 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 26 DRB%, when their team was no 6 in DRB% (better than Kemp's Sonics, Malone's Jazz, Hakeem's Rockets or MJ's Bulls)?
Also, in 1994, when Barkley missed 17 games, Suns played worse without him on offense and also on defense: 6.7 ortg and 1.4 drtg. And that was worse version of Barkley than during 1993 season.
I also think people don't realize how good defensively 1993 Suns were. -1.3 DRTG and 9th place is better result than for example Spurs with DRob. Who was responsible for that defense? Small players like Ainge, KJ and Majerle? Or maybe Chambers (1723 minutes played) or Ceballos (1607) or West (only 1558)? Or maybe people don't give Barkley (2859 minutes played) enough credit for his defensive effort during 1993 season?
in 94 KJ missed most of those games as well. so if you take away 2 best players off your team, I'd certainly expect a big drop. Barkley at best has a net neutral impact on defense (I doubt that very much). so he must be a ton better on offense than anyone left on board because players who are being considered were positive impact defenders (Malones).
going by impact stats Barkley just doesn't seem like he's some juggernaut. with the very small sample exception in 93, his other in/out runs don't seem very impressive. +2 in 87, +3.5 in 91, +8 when he goes down with 2nd best player on the team in 94, then again +0.1 in 95, +5 in 96, +3.5 in 97. very good player, just not all timer. you would have to believe Barkley was on just another level in 93 than he was in 87-97. you would have to be a +5/+6 player to get in at this point.
my next votes include Malones, McHale and Dwight. I think Karl Malone is my top1 right now but I'd vote for 94 or 95 Malone and nobody will support this version. I don't like late 90s Malone all that much. I actually think 83 Moses was more impactful than Malone but only because of Sixers being such a perfect team and Dr J such a great leader who motivated Malone to play more team-ball and defense. but I'd vote for Karl because of his portability. his skillset is just a lot more friendly for various lineups. Moses needs specific players around him and proper motivation to step up on D. McHale is a dark horse at this point but he's coming up fast. I don't really know what to make of Dwight.
my case for Moses over Barkley:
-considerably better defensive player, with higher defensive ceiling. Sixers may have been the best defense in the NBA that year if you took out those games at the end of the year. they were the best defense in the postseason. there's no question he had some elite supporting cast on that end, Sixers were a very good defensive team before Moses arrived, but they weren't really close to dominance. in 83 PS Sixers were a dominant defensive team. I think it's because Moses rebounding presence allowed them to gamble a lot more on the perimeter. when fatal was refering to their perimeter defense as "they were probably on some isht", he's talking about their postseason D. I don't see Barkley ever making that kind of impact. Moses with all his faults gives you SOME inside presence and with his height he can protect the basket to a degree.
-this defensive impact is in large part due to better man defense. I've already posted this:
not sure if you read the comments about Barkley I re-posted. to me there's a pretty huge gap between Moses and Barkley on defense. Moses can actually be a good HCO defender/part of a good defensive team. Barkley just suck defensively, period. check out some of the averages of opposing PFs against Barkley. look at the 93 postseason of Kemp for a good measure:
14.8 ppg 52% FG vs Karl Malone in the 1st round
13.6 ppg 42% FG vs Hakeem in the 2nd round
20.6 ppg 59% FG vs Barkley in the WCFs
and it's not just Kemp either. everyone defended by Barkley posted monster stats, far better than vs anyone else in that postseason. Divac posted 18 ppg 5.6 apg in the 1st rd, Carr/Cummings combined together for 19.2 ppg at 54% FG in 36 mpg,
now compare that to Moses opponents. Knicks center Cartwright went from 15.7 ppg in the RS to 11.2 in the PS vs Moses. Lanier actually had a good series at 13.7 ppg in 27 mpg in the ECFs but he was injured in the RS for the most part so it's hard to tell. most importantly, and I'm hoping Barkey supporters can respond to this, Moses locked up prime Kareem in the finals. Kareem avged 23.5 ppg at 60% TS along with 3 ast vs 3.5 tov... which seems pretty good but it was after avging 28.3 ppg and 3.2 tov the rest of the playoffs. so Moses made some serious defensive impact as far as containing Kareem. Lakers offense regressed a lot as well. only 100 ppg @ 45% FG in the finals.
-both Barkley and Moses joined stacked teams. those teams were about +5.5 to +7.5 before they arrived. but Sixers with Moses was a lot more dominant than Suns with Barkley. that's telling me Moses must've been more impactful. if you look at postseason in particular, there's just no way Suns were anywhere near those Sixers. Suns barely got out of the first round, had several elimination games in the western conference and lost in the finals. Sixers ran over their opposition. there was no doubt.
-as for their offensive impact, Barkley to me is clearly a more valuable and more versatile offensive player to build around. but Moses himself is a pretty good offensive piece. you can't run offense through him but he's the best off-ball scorer in history, you don't have to run plays for him either. so you can pair him up with ball dominant guard/wing and be fine with his impact. Moses was leading many #1 offenses in the late 70s. when he's focused on defense, he's not making that much impact offensively but I feel like the gap between Barkley and Moses isn't as big as on defense. Moses doesn't seem to have a clear ceiling on what his teams can do, unlike Barkley on defense (and he still needs stacked supporting cast to lead strong offense).
), and he was voted in the peaks.