#24 Highest Peak of All Time (Moses '83 wins)

[Doctor MJ]

Charles Barkley '93 has been enshrined. We move on.

[therealbig3]

Vote: 03 T-Mac

[JordansBulls]

--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
Moses Malone 1983: 25.1, 0.248 -----25.7, 0.260 (13 playoff games, title)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2 ... nces-11-20

MOSES MALONE FINALS STATS
Points per game: 25.8
Boards per game: 18.0
Blocks per game: 1.5
PER: 26.0



VOTE: Moses Malone 1983.

[ardee]

Ok, so Chuck was the last player I was reasonably sure of with ranking.

So I'm looking at Moses, Karl, McGrady, King and Barry. Moses and Barry are of course the remaining 'perfect' years. 1998 Karl was pretty close, and for the first time he came up big in a back to the wall situation. McGrady has been debated to death of course.

We have to consider '84 King for his ridiculously efficient regular season and that unstoppable Playoff run. Barry is not too far behind (taking that 48 win Bullets team to the title was no easy feat).

Overall, it may just come down to Moses, T-Mac and King for me. I'd really like to hear some T-Mac/King debate, but tentatively I'm going:

Vote: 1983 Moses Malone

[SDChargers#1]

Vote: Moses Malone 1983

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Tmac 03. Right there with prime Kobe and Wade for 1st option wings. An elite mix of athleticism, skill and basketball IQ.

[ElGee]

vote: 1998 Karl Malone

The only thing I'll say about Moses Malone, without inciting a riot, is that I don't think 1983 was his peak year. I think that was 1982. I don't see how people can reasonably think that Moses was any different defensively in 1982 than in 1983...which leaves the offensive side of the ball, on which I don't see how to argue 83 was better than 82 (from what I've seen). That everyone has so quickly defaulted to this year without even mentioning 82 should have all 83 Moses voters double-checking their own methods.

Karl has been pretty clearly above Moses in my mind for quite a while, which is not to say the difference is enormous. But look at from this simple point of view:

-Can Moses be the offensive anchor Malone can be? (Not quite as good IMO)
-Can Moses' offensive skillset fit in on better offensive teams (Not as well, IMO -- great spacing on Karl's jumper and great passing.)
-Is Moses' a better defender? (Ehhh -- I really don't think so. I'd rather have Malone's defense at the 4 + a defensive 5 than Moses defense at the 5 + a defensive 4.)

Small edges to Karl but edges nonetheless.

98 Jazz/Malone cuts from the PS:
WCF G1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so5JjKpxJjc
WCF G4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuVqbZmhd04
Finals G1 and 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6X_pW6XZwo
Finals G3 and 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI26b7FlDMg

[An Unbiased Fan]

The only thing I'll say about Moses Malone, without inciting a riot, is that I don't think 1983 was his peak year. I think that was 1982. I don't see how people can reasonably think that Moses was any different defensively in 1982 than in 1983...which leaves the offensive side of the ball, on which I don't see how to argue 83 was better than 82 (from what I've seen). That everyone has so quickly defaulted to this year without even mentioning 82 should have all 83 Moses voters double-checking their own methods.

Well, it was the general consensus back in 1983, that Moses was much better on defense than in 1982. Much the same way Shaq re-focused on D when Phil came in 2000, Moses did the same when he went to Philly. Certain systems demand differing things from a player. Moses was recognized as All-D 1st team by NBA coaches, so clearly impressed his peers.

I would love to hear your reasoning for 1982 Moses over 1983 Moses, because I don't see it.

Karl has been pretty clearly above Moses in my mind for quite a while, which is not to say the difference is enormous. But look at from this simple point of view:

-Can Moses be the offensive anchor Malone can be? (Not quite as good IMO)

What do you based this on? Moses was anchoring Houston just fine. Karl is a better overall offensive player, but Mose's was Top 5 in PPG 5 straight years(79-83), and all five years his team had a Top 10 offense.

Stockton was the general of Utah, a luxury Moses didn't have. I certainly don't think 34 year old Karl Malone of 1998 was much better as an offensive anchor than Moses, especially when you factor in offensive boards.

-Can Moses' offensive skillset fit in on better offensive teams (Not as well, IMO -- great spacing on Karl's jumper and great passing.)

Strange, considering that we saw peak Moses on two completely differing teams, yet he was still incredibly impactful on both. While Malone had Stockton for all of his productive years.

We really don't know at all what Karl would have done outside of Utah, with no Stock PnR. We DO know how Moses would.

-Is Moses' a better defender? (Ehhh -- I really don't think so. I'd rather have Malone's defense at the 4 + a defensive 5 than Moses defense at the 5 + a defensive 4.)

Again, i don't see a 34 year old Karl as better on defense than Moses, especially when you considering Mose's massive defensive rebounding advantage.

[bastillon]

The only thing I'll say about Moses Malone, without inciting a riot, is that I don't think 1983 was his peak year. I think that was 1982. I don't see how people can reasonably think that Moses was any different defensively in 1982 than in 1983...which leaves the offensive side of the ball, on which I don't see how to argue 83 was better than 82 (from what I've seen). That everyone has so quickly defaulted to this year without even mentioning 82 should have all 83 Moses voters double-checking their own methods.

classic ElGee. comes in here talking about how Moses 82 is better than Moses 83 without providing any useful information and claims voters methords are questionable. Moses was roughly the same player both years but he had a different team role and hence significantly lower scoring average. Moses was motivated to play defense though which resulted in Sixers being a pretty dominant defensive ballclub (excluding the stretch in the latter part of the RS when they were lock for #1 seed anyway). this is something I overlooked earlier in the project.

as for Karl vs Moses... I'd actually pick Mailman but not 98 version. I don't wanna repeat myself, maybe I'll make a gigantic re-post of everything on Moses vs Karl but late 90s Malone is to me too much of a jumpshooter and his individual playoff efficiency is just too low for me. he's a primarily offensive guy who puts up 105 Ortg in 96-98 playoffs. seems just way too low for me. I'm aware of Jazz offensive numbers in those postseasons but Stock/Hornacek are not getting enough credit for it.

Moses was able to step up in the playoffs unlike Malone. he put up 26 ppg @ 59% TS and 118 Ortg. Sixers were stacked and Moses fit very well but there's a big difference in how Sixers 82/83 played in the postseason. Moses made a big impact. that's despite Dr J and Toney struggling in the 83 postseason offensively as both put up 101 and 102 ORtg (Dr J had a sub-50% TS, Toney tons of tovs). so Moses was clearly carrying that offense, it seems.

the Sixers won on the basis of their defense (probably about -7 or -8 in the playoffs) which they did forcing a ton of tov and Moses deserves some credit for avging 1.5 stl/1.9 blk in the postseason, as well as rebounding over 10 times on defense which let other Sixers roam around on the perimeter. his man defense on Kareem seems impressive as well. couldn't stop him when he got the ball but pushed him away from the block at least making him work for his points and Kareem's volume scoring dropped significantly as well. with all Moses history of making low defensive impact, everything points to a different story in that postseason. seems like Moses was actually doing a pretty good job defensively.

he should've gotten in over Barkley (and probably would've if deadline was extended). last time I simply forgot to vote at all. so now I'm making it clear now: Moses 1983

[lorak]

-Can Moses be the offensive anchor Malone can be? (Not quite as good IMO)

And my question is: how good offensive anchor Karl really was? Big man who on offense relied mainly on jump shot and he wasn't good shooter. That might works during regular season (and in fact worked during 1998) but not during playoffs (and that's the reason why Karl so many times shot so poorly in post season and is career 52.5 TS% in the playoffs. Always criticized for his playoffs performance David Robinson have 54.7 TS%). Of course Karl was very good passer but scoring wise I don't see him as someone much better than for example Elvin Hayes (and Hayes was better defender than Karl).

As for now I'm leaning towards Moses, but I'm not sure and I could be easily swayed towards TMac or Karl.

[Lightning25]

Vote - 1983 Moses Malone.

I wouldn't mind either Malone taking this spot but I would side with Moses here. The main reason is because of Moses' terrific playoff performances. Karl is an underrated playoff performer/clutch guy but he still wasn't as clutch or as reliable as Moses was.

Next 3 picks after this one would be...

1. Whichever Malone doesn't get selected this round
2. 1975 Rick Barry
3. 1984 Bernard King / 2012 Kevin Durant

[colts18]

In the 83 playoffs, Moses led the playoffs in ORB%, DRB%, TRB%, and D Rating/DWS

[Doctor MJ]

So I'm looking at Moses, Karl, McGrady, King and Barry.

I'm on the same page as you. King & Barry were the two guys I was looking to bring up this thread. I feel like the central dilemma with King is pretty well understood, but let me talk about Barry for a second:

Barry was basically the ultimate high volume scorer when he burst on the scene, and I don't mean that entirely as a compliment. His efficiency was never great except in the early ABA, which at that time truly far a far worse league than the NBA, and even when he calmed down his volume he was never great on that front.

When I see this, I basically take it as a given that I'm going to rank the guy's scoring below other more efficient volume scorers who showed indications of great team play. Most of those guys though are already voted in.

At the same time though it's important to understand that it's easy to overstate the issues with efficiency. You truly can be making great things happen all over the court while overrating your own scoring a bit, and this was the case with Barry. I think you can understand Barry best from his title year:

Barry played 40 MPG, and everyone else was basically 30 or lower. On a team that won it all. That's basically unheard of to have such a gap after the Russell-Wilt era where those guys basically never went to the bench. That Warrior team was basically just Barry & a platoon of guys rotating for max freshness, and you don't have Barry be so different from those other guys without a reason.

Now, the reason was not that he was the only one who could score. Check out how good the Warriors were the next year with Barry's volume going down. The efficiency issue is real enough in the sense that Barry doesn't have to be scoring like crazy for the team to win. However, his presence out there as the coach on the floor I think HAD to be there for there to be success.

[colts18]

I'm leaning towards Moses. They completely dominated the Lakers. The Lakers scored 113 PPG and 52 FG% pre-finals and averaged 100.5 PPG and 45 FG% vs. the 76ers. He dominated Kareem. Kareem's PPG dropped about 5 PPG in the finals compared to the WC playoffs. Moses had more Offensive rebounds than Kareem had defensive rebounds

[ardee]

Vote - 1983 Moses Malone.

I wouldn't mind either Malone taking this spot but I would side with Moses here. The main reason is because of Moses' terrific playoff performances. Karl is an underrated playoff performer/clutch guy but he still wasn't as clutch or as reliable as Moses was.

Next 3 picks after this one would be...

1. Whichever Malone doesn't get selected this round
2. 1975 Rick Barry
3. 1984 Bernard King / 2012 Kevin Durant

Wow don't you think that's a bit high for Durant? I mean, there's still another 'perfect' season in Willis Reed 1970 with MVP and Finals MVP, one of the ultimate turnaround seasons in Kidd 2002 or 2003, and Kevin McHale's ridiculous 1987 season.

[colts18]

In the Regular season, the 6ers were +3.6 on offense and -3.8 on defense. In the playoffs they were +5.9 on offense and -4.8 on defense. The defense number is impressive, but the offensive one is even more considering Moses supporting cast fell off.

Dr. J:
21 PPG, .566 TS%, 115 O rating in reg season
18 PPG, .496 TS%, 102 O rating in postseason

Cheeks:
13 PPG, .582 TS%, 117 O rating
16 PPG, .549 TS%, 113 O rating

Toney:
20 PPG, .558 TS%, 108 O rating
19 PPG, .525 TS%, 101 O rating

Jones:
9 PPG, .603 TS%, 117 O rating
9 PPG, .593 TS%, 116 O rating

Every main contributor had their O rating fall in the playoffs and Dr. J fell off significantly. Despite that, the 76ers offense was actually better in the playoffs. That was due to Moses.

[fatal9]

I'm thinking T-Mac here, with K. Malone right there as well. I have questions about his shot selection (which would have to improve if he were to play in deeper playoff rounds), his experience and his defense. He actually used to be a good defender at the end of his Toronto days and first year with the Magic so the ability is there, but he just had to carry so much of the load on offense. His portability and talent are tough for me to pass on. I don't think we give him enough credit for his natural feel for the game which I felt was better than Kobe's for example (who kind of needs Phil Jackson and triangle to control him), and that's why I don't think T-Mac would really have a problem "fitting in" his game while playing with more talented players. He's a natural.


Moses' peak being 1982 is actually a pretty reasonable statement. That was the year Moses felt he was at his best and he was drawing a lot of praise around the league. I always see players put up insane stretches of play in the regular season during their peak years that go beyond the level they've played at before, and Moses had those amazing stretches in the '82 season. His defense is better in '83, role is different, he's on a championship team instead of a negative SRS team so numbers are down. I don't think at this stage there's a point in having an argument over which was the better year. Different situations so it's hard to gauge. He did enough in '83 for that year to deserve the benefit of doubt.


I'll quote a post made by ShaqAttack3234 about his '82 season:

I looked into this season a while ago, and have been meaning to make a thread about it, but forgot until the last few days, so now is as good of a time as any.

He didn't win the title this year like he did in '83, but this has a strong case for being his best season. The individual feats are just astonishing.

I'll start with the final 2 games in January. Entering these games, the Rockets were a mediocre 19-22, but they won both games with Moses scoring 33 in the first game and in the second game, he had 32 points, 20 rebounds, 2 assists and 4 blocks on 12/18 from the floor and 7/10 from the line in 41 minutes. This would start an 8 game winning streak, a stretch where Houston went 13-2, a streak of 13 consecutive 30+ point games, a stretch of 30+ in 19 out of 20 games, and lead into a month of February which would make these 2 late January wins look quiet.

Moses opened up the month of February with 53 points(19 in the 4th quarter), 23 rebounds(11 of them were offensive boards), 4 assists and 1 block on 19/30 from the floor and 15/18 from the line.

That was just the first of 3 consecutive 40 point games. He followed it up with 45 points and 20 rebounds and then had 47 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists and 2 blocks on 18/28 from the floor and 11/15 from the line.

Here's what Del Harris had to say following these 3 games.

Del Harris
"If there's anybody playing any better in the NBA right now ... well, there just isn't," said Houston Coach Del Harris. "And the thing of it is, he's getting his points off the flow. He's getting them within the framework of our offense, plus the fact he's averaging about 10 points a game off his own hard work on the offensive boards."

Then Moses had a nice 33 point game before he continued with the legendary performances. His next game was a 38 point, 32 rebound game vs the Sonics, he broke his own record with 21 offensive rebounds, a record that still stands 30 years later, and this was the last 30/30 game until Kevin Love did it in the 2010-2011 season.

Moses outrebounded the entire Sonics team by himself, and Lenny Wilkens had this to say.

Lenny Wilkens
"Moses was really controlling the boards," said Seattle Coach Lenny Wilkens. "Bob Pettit and Bill Russell were two of the best (rebounders) that I ever saw. Moses compares very favorably."

Moses finally offered his 2 cents as well.

Moses Malone
"I had stretches like this in high school, but never in pro ball," Malone said, "My body feels so good right now. I stay in shape. I'm losing pounds. The main thing is I'm getting rest."

After a few more 30+ games, one of them in Houston's first loss in more than 3 weeks, Moses had 44 points and 16 rebounds vs the Cavs. Followed by a few more "ordinary" 30+ games, Moses had 34/21 vs Dallas, then he was finally held under 30 with 23 points and 9 rebounds on 8/17 shooting show that he was normal, but the Rockets still beat Denver ever.

However, he'd end February with 43 points and 23 rebounds, and 44 points. Unfortunately, this game didn't end so well as Moses was held to just 2 points in the 4th, missed the potential game-winner in regulation and was held to just 2 points in overtime.

He'd add another 40+ game with 43 points on his first game in March, 14 of his points in the 4th quarter, although Houston would lose this game too.

Overall, Moses averaged 38.1 ppg and 17.3 rpg in the month of February. he had at least 30 points in 13 of the 14 games, scored 40+ 6 times that month and had at least 20 rebounds 6 times that month. He led Houston to an 11-3 record and to nobody's surprise was voted player of the month for February.

But this was not the end of Malone's dominance. After starting off March with the aforementioned 43 point game for a second streak of 3 40+ games in a row in about a month, he continued dropping 30+ including 38/12 with 3 blocks on 16/26 from the floor and 6/6 from the line while playing all 48 minutes, he then came through in the clutch the next game. He had 39 points and 18 rebounds including the offensive rebound and game-winner with 4 seconds remaining to beat the Suns by 2.

He was then held under 30 for just the second time in 21 games with 28 and he shot just 10/28, and followed it up with a 26 point game, which may have made people think he was cooling off. Not the case. He responded with 49 points and 12 rebounds while scoring 22 in the 4th quarter to beat the Blazers, then he was relatively quiet with games of 24 and 19 points, respectively, but responded with 39 points and 17 rebounds vs Kareem's Lakers, though Kareem sat out the second half with a sprained ankle.

Del Harris
"People have always said 'As Moses Malone goes, so go the Rockets.' Well, I wish that were true because if that were the case we would have finished 75-7 last season. He plays that well every night."

Moses transitioned into his next outstanding performance with 31 points in between. He duplicated his outstanding performance from about a week and a half earlier vs Portland when he had 41 points and 18 rebounds as well as a 12 point 4th quarter to beat Portland again. He followed this up with 46 points vs the Sonics to continue his dominance of both these Northwest teams. he had a 38/20 game vs the Mavs sandwiched between 29/17 and 35/15 games vs the Warriors, the latter being on April 1st. He had a relatively quiet 21/15 game in a win vs the Spurs to lead into another monster game vs Kareem and the Lakers. Moses had 37 points and 21 rebounds, although Kareem did get the last laugh with 12 of his 20 points in the 4th quarter to pull out the win.

This was really when Malone's historical dominance, which last over 2 months, finally came to an end, as he scored 30+ in just 1 of his last 6 games to end the regular season.

[Doctor MJ]

I didn't mention Howard. I do think Howard in the mix here makes a lot of sense too.

[Doctor MJ]

Wow don't you think that's a bit high for Durant? I mean, there's still another 'perfect' season in Willis Reed 1970 with MVP and Finals MVP, one of the ultimate turnaround seasons in Kidd 2002 or 2003, and Kevin McHale's ridiculous 1987 season.

I feel like it's a bit early for Durant as well...although that might be me being a bit irrational. I tend to think he's not quite up there with more all around players, but I can't really claim that I think McGrady & King are so easily ahead of him that there shouldn't be debate.

Re: Reed's perfect season. Here's where I think the idea of a "perfect" season can really cause problems. I don't see Reed's '70 being anywhere near in the mix. The perfect season in question belong to the Knicks, and while Reed was a big part of that, coach Red was massive, Frazier was massive, and guys like DeBuss and Bradley and other were very important as well.

Quite honestly, I think it's likely I'll vote for a Frazier season before I vote for a Reed season.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Durant is a fantastic scorer, but isn't much of a playmaker(has a negative ast/to ratio), and his defense isn't anything special either.

I think 03' Tmac is overrated quite a bit, but he still has a case over 2012 Durant. 1996 Penny is above both, IMO. Guys like Gervin & Dantley need mention too, as does pre-injury Grant Hill, the severely underrated Elgin Baylor, Isiah, Stock, GP, and a host of other guys.

Frankly, other than recency, I'm not sure why Tmac or Durant is getting mentioned yet. Tmac was a zero on the mental side of the game, and was playing no defense by 2003. What was so special about him?