Chicago Bulls Medical Staff - No Progress?

[MAQ]

Before people make judgmental comments about professionals in a field (medicine) that they likely know nothing about, it is first important to recognize that the Bulls training staff and medical staff are completely different entities and organizations.

The trainers sit on the bench, make daily recommendations, tape ankles, ice players down, etc, etc.

The medical staff ("team doctors") are consulted only when serious injuries arise.

I think this distinction is important, particularly if people are going to toss around uninformed accusations of causality and attempts to link freak injuries to the performance of our team's various medical professionals.

This post should be siged by everyone who cares to blame the "medical staff".

Seriously.

[Mobby]

@FillTheRafters - You're right; I suppose my semantics were off. I change my statement to "trainers and medical staff that don't take a holistic approach."

@Seinfeld - I can't speak for everyone, but my statements apply to all medical staffs that under-employ a complete, holistic approach. I suppose I'm just more upset about it on the Bulls' staff because it's the team I chiefly support.

I'm pretty sure the Suns are the only team that uses a holistic approach, but I could be wrong.

I don't really want to go through each team one-by-one, but I found this tidbit interesting :

For instance, the
head physicians for both teams of the 2005 NBA Finals were
osteopathic physicians: Paul S. Saenz, DO, San Antonio Spurs;
and Benjamin J. Paolucci, DO, Detroit Pistons.

And then this general quote :

Several DOs serve as team physicians for the NBA, NHL, and MLB teams across the US.

[Red Larrivee]

Really? Now we're getting on our medical staff of all things?

There is good things about the internet and all the information we are able to consume, and then there are things which make you regret that the internet even exists, this is one of those moments.

Yes, lets blame our medical staff, while we're at it, lets blame the security people, as well as the adminstrators. Lets blame those people who surface and lay out the floor before games, if you polished and fixed those damn floors, maybe players wouldn't roll their ankles so much. And damn you ball boys, I noticed you in a few of last seasons games, YOU ARE MEANT TO BE INVISIBLE!! Last but not least, DAMN YOU NBA!! Why must you make these players play basketball when they get injured. Stupid sports.

The OP's post had me confused, and this was the exact thing I was thinking.

Not many of us here are doctors in that field, or have even close to the knowledge necessary to talk about this, so what complaints are we supposed to be making? If somebody brought this up to the Bulls, they'd look like morons trying to talk about it.

Yes, I think letting Noah hobbling back on to the court in the Sixers series was weird, but I don't honestly know how any of us are really supposed to evaluate the medical or training staff. This is one of those things where "they know a lot more than you do."

[Mobby]

Though I generally agree with you there, kulaz and Red, I do have to say that it's possible to evaluate something without knowing entire specifics. And although something as complicated as medicine is a bit more difficult to judge, consequences usually directly stem from some kind of action, and I just don't think it's plausible to argue something like Bulls staff = Suns staff based on their track records. Just because the Bulls staff isn't the worst in the league doesn't mean that we can't criticize it and that they shouldn't try to improve their philosophy.

Note that I'm not saying the Bulls staff is entirely to blame for the injuries, but who is to be held responsible for the players' health if not the people employed to keep the players' health in check?

[babblin-on]

I'm not saying team doctors don't have an influence on players health, but we are acting like we have some doctors out there who are out there to hurt players or something.

Nah, people are expressing concern and a lack of faith in a training and medical staff based on a number of questionable incidents of the last last several years, as detailed by Coldfish.

Why do posters on this website have to be so committed to defending or criticizing the Bulls across the board, regardless of the issue and the surrounding facts? Reading this board has become like seeing Democrat and Republican shills argue in circles on the cable news networks.

I think it's easy to point out the negatives with the fragment of information we receive, and be entirely oblivious to the positives because we don't have that information. Being misinformed because of lack of information if you will, or more specifically an incomplete amount of information, which is the case here.

I just can't imagine our front office or whoever is in charge of team doctors employment would keep incompetent doctors on board purely out of loyalty, and not from their performance which they'd likely be aware of more closely than any of us. Again, it's easy to speculate and point fingers from afar, and use little tidbits of information to form our own conclusions; it's the same thing we do with trade rumors, we read it and it doesn't happen and somehow it's all on our front office and no one else.

As for RIP, I believe he hurt his shoulder on a play where he made direct impact on that exact part of his shoulder he had injured previously. Could he have waited until he was 100% healed? Sure, but if that were the case for all players, you'd see most players missing significant games year after year. Sometimes freak accidents happen and it's unavoidable. Then their are players who want to push forward, amidst doctors orders. What about players who lack conditioning, putting their bodies are higher probability of being injured? Is it the doctors fault? Is it our teams fault? Is it the players fault? Perhaps it's their parents fault without putting hard work values into them growing up, which resulted in their injury.

[Red Larrivee]

Though I generally agree with you there, kulaz and Red, I do have to say that it's possible to evaluate something without knowing entire specifics. And although something as complicated as medicine is a bit more difficult to judge, consequences usually directly stem from some kind of action, and I just don't think it's plausible to argue something like Bulls staff = Suns staff based on their track records. Just because the Bulls staff isn't the worst in the league doesn't mean that we can't criticize it and that they shouldn't try to improve their philosophy.

Note that I'm not saying the Bulls staff is entirely to blame for the injuries, but who is to be held responsible for the players' health if not the people employed to keep the players' health in check?

No don't get me wrong, feel free to criticize it. I just don't get how far you expect it to go, when none of us are really informed in that field. Knowing what players are good at basketball is one thing, but medical is a different monster.

Again, it's just one of those things where they know a lot more than we ever will.

[MAQ]

Why do posters on this website have to be so committed to defending or criticizing the Bulls across the board, regardless of the issue and the surrounding facts? Reading this board has become like seeing Democrat and Republican shills argue in circles on the cable news networks.

Great analogy.

I definitely feel like whatever someone is "against" on this board they will bad mouth it as hard as they can to make a point.

Using the phrase " Rose openly complained about the Bulls Medical Staff" just floored me. Rose did no such thing. It was so wrong on multiple levels. Rose said he didn't like his ankle taped, but the Bulls prefer it if the players do tape their ankles. The taping of his ankles were too tight and that is what contributed to his foot injury, which is a completely plausible story.

It's bending the truth at it's finest. Bending it to make you look like you have a point in what it is you stand against. That is exactly what I think of when I think of the state politics in this country.

[Seinfeld]

I'm not saying team doctors don't have an influence on players health, but we are acting like we have some doctors out there who are out there to hurt players or something.

Nah, people are expressing concern and a lack of faith in a training and medical staff based on a number of questionable incidents of the last last several years, as detailed by Coldfish.

Maybe because coldfish has (at least one of) his facts wrong?

The odd year for the medical staff began in the summer of 2011. Noah, who was playing for the Bulls, couldn't get medical clearance to play for France several weeks later due to injury.

I'm not sure why he said that, when Noah played for France in the summer of 2011. The Bulls season ended on May 26, and by August 2nd he was cleared to play for France. By the French team's osteopath.

===========================================================================
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/0 ... 16402.html

The French team's osteopath and the Bulls' physiotherapist are said to be happy that Noah's injury has responded well to treatment.

"After seeing the conclusions from the two specialists, the franchise (Chicago Bulls) doctor should give his accord for Joakim Noah to return to the France team, without having to go to Chicago," the FFBB said Monday on its website.

France is training in Pau this week ahead of the European Championship. France will play Latvia on Aug. 31.

"There's been good progress, and Joakim seems to have recovered well from the little problem he had," France team director Patrick Beesley said. "I am optimistic that he will be in Pau by the end of the week."
=======================================================================
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joakim_Noah

Noah made his first appearance for the French national basketball team on August 9, 2011 in the friendly match against Spain where he scored 6 points with 3 rebounds.
=======================================================================
Rip had missed 27 and 36 games in the two seasons before he came to Chicago, and people complained at the time of his signing that he was old an injury prone. But then when he actually had injuries last season, it's the fault of the Bulls' doctors?

Rose played 81, 78 and 81 games his first three seasons, playing under the supervision of the same doctors that "sucked" last season.

Boozer and Brewer had never played a full season in their careers, but neither of them missed a game last season. I guess that was luck??

Noah had a sprained ankle vs Philly, but instead of being complimented for being a warrior and trying to play through it, the Bulls' doctors suck for letting him return? Anyone who is a competitor would have gotten the x-ray to make sure it wasn't broken and then tried to gut it out, especially in the playoffs.

Rose complained that he is made to tape his ankles, when he had always worn ankle braces in the past. I'm with Derrick on this one, a tight wrap isn't going to provide much more protection than a brace IMHO.

[McBulls]

No matter how much you wiggle and dance, the sad fact is that the Bulls had the best team in the NBA for the last two seasons, but failed to manage to keep several of their key players healthy when the playoffs came around.

You could blame the events on luck.
You might, stupidly, blame the coaches for playing the players too much.
You could blame management for not setting the right priorities for medical staff: both trainers and physician consultants.
You would be very tempted to blame the medical staff in general, and, as a fan, ask that management seek outside advice about the wisdom of their decisions over the last few years.
But you would not blame the players, the fans or the weather.

The ability to do spectacularly difficult surgical repair is different from the ability to prevent a small injury from provoking a much worse one. The latter skill is more important in sports IMO.

So count me as one of the fans who does not feel good about the medical staff hired by the Bulls, the physicians who were consulted, or management's oversight of their objectives and priorities.

[babblin-on]

Why do posters on this website have to be so committed to defending or criticizing the Bulls across the board, regardless of the issue and the surrounding facts? Reading this board has become like seeing Democrat and Republican shills argue in circles on the cable news networks.

Great analogy.

I definitely feel like whatever someone is "against" on this board they will bad mouth it as hard as they can to make a point.

Using the phrase " Rose openly complained about the Bulls Medical Staff" just floored me. Rose did no such thing. It was so wrong on multiple levels. Rose said he didn't like his ankle taped, but the Bulls prefer it if the players do tape their ankles. The taping of his ankles were too tight and that is what contributed to his foot injury, which is a completely plausible story.

It's bending the truth at it's finest. Bending it to make you look like you have a point in what it is you stand against. That is exactly what I think of when I think of the state politics in this country.

Yeah, I think the medical/training staff is a legit topic of discussion, and there are enough legit things to point to that you shouldn't have to say untrue things like "Rose openly complained about the Bulls Medical Staff". It's come to the point where otherwise good posters have gone to similar extremes in the opposite direction. It sucks. I wonder if that, along with the uninspiring/depressing offseason of course, has contributed to the board being so dead even with the pre-season looming so close.

[Leslie Forman]

Before people make judgmental comments about professionals in a field (medicine) that they likely know nothing about

Thanks to our healthcare system I think I've seen a doctor like once in the last decade, but even I know that if a guy's leg is broken and a doctor says it's not, that is probably not a good doctor.

[babblin-on]

I'm not saying team doctors don't have an influence on players health, but we are acting like we have some doctors out there who are out there to hurt players or something.

Nah, people are expressing concern and a lack of faith in a training and medical staff based on a number of questionable incidents of the last last several years, as detailed by Coldfish.

Maybe because coldfish has (at least one of) his facts wrong?

The odd year for the medical staff began in the summer of 2011. Noah, who was playing for the Bulls, couldn't get medical clearance to play for France several weeks later due to injury.

I'm not sure why he said that, when Noah played for France in the summer of 2011. The Bulls season ended on May 26, and by August 2nd he was cleared to play for France. By the French team's osteopath.

Not so fast:
http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story/_/ ... kle-injury
He reported to the French team in July of '11, and they sent him back to Chicago because they said his ankle wasn't ready. So, coldfish was correct.

Rip had missed 27 and 36 games in the two seasons before he came to Chicago, and people complained at the time of his signing that he was old an injury prone. But then when he actually had injuries last season, it's the fault of the Bulls' doctors?

That's fair, you could maybe question the way they handled some of the injuries, but whatever.

Rose played 81, 78 and 81 games his first three seasons, playing under the supervision of the same doctors that "sucked" last season.

That still doesn't address the issue of why Rose was out there in New Orleans when he could barely jog because of his back. That was bad.

Noah had a sprained ankle vs Philly, but instead of being complimented for being a warrior and trying to play through it, the Bulls' doctors suck for letting him return? Anyone who is a competitor would have gotten the x-ray to make sure it wasn't broken and then tried to gut it out, especially in the playoffs.

Noah was a warrior for wanting to go back out there, but evaluating the medical decision to let him actually do it is a separate issue. That was an embarrassingly bad decision. The moment he went back out there you could tell he couldn't run on that ankle, the trainer should've been able to see that before putting him out there to maybe hurt himself worse.

[coldfish]

Thanks babblin-on for the defense.

I would like to know more about the medical / training staff issue. Personally, I was under the impression that while the groups are two different entities, they work together to determine procedures and practices. Is this not true?

I'll be the first to admit that we are not doctors here and don't have the knowledge or ability to judge the procedures and practices of the Bulls medical and training staffs. Nor do we know how well those procedures and practices are being carried out.

That being said, neither do the "pro medical / training staff people". The people on that side of the argument are effectively assuming that all of the results are the output of bad luck. That's not a particularly strong case and definitely not one to get outright belligerent over.

I'll make this challenge to anyone: Has any team in all of professional or even college sports had as many issues with clearing people to play who shouldn't have or misdiagnosis? Examples please.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

@FillTheRafters - You're right; I suppose my semantics were off. I change my statement to "trainers and medical staff that don't take a holistic approach."

@Seinfeld - I can't speak for everyone, but my statements apply to all medical staffs that under-employ a complete, holistic approach. I suppose I'm just more upset about it on the Bulls' staff because it's the team I chiefly support.

I'm pretty sure the Suns are the only team that uses a holistic approach, but I could be wrong.

I don't really want to go through each team one-by-one, but I found this tidbit interesting :

For instance, the
head physicians for both teams of the 2005 NBA Finals were
osteopathic physicians: Paul S. Saenz, DO, San Antonio Spurs;
and Benjamin J. Paolucci, DO, Detroit Pistons.

And then this general quote :

Several DOs serve as team physicians for the NBA, NHL, and MLB teams across the US.

FWIW - Just because a doctor got a DO, doesn't mean he practices/believes in the holistic/DO type of medicine. Conversely just because someone got an MD - it doesn't mean they are oblivious or unaware of how to treat holistically. I know plenty of people who got DO's because they could get into an MD program, and plenty of MD's who practice along the lines of what is generally thought of as the 'DO style'.

[Mech Engineer]

It is ridiculous the defense the Bulls medical staff/trainers are getting. McBulls said it right...they might be able to do the most complex procedures but IMO, they might be bad in organization/paying attention to small injuries. Nobody is saying they are horrible or they are incapable and anybody on the street can do their job better.

If we can comment about Thibs's coaching or GarPax's drafting/FA process or somebody's basketball skills without running any professional basketball team or playing in the NBA....we can obviously armchair comment on the medical staff/trainers etc..It is obviously speculation but most of it is basic common sense observations about medical issues.

For me, Deng is the perfect example of the mis-management of information/diagnosis with both his old injury a few years back and the current injury. It is going to get worse if there is a future issue this season with Deng or if he struggles like he was doing in Mar/Apr holding his wrist after some falls. That's the way it goes when the whole season is dependent on a few players in the internet era when comments leak out. Nobody is blaming the Miami staff for how they have handled Wade/Bosh on their injuries.

[icarusforte]

You can criticize the training staff and the procedures they employ; however, you have to remember that the player will have the final say on how/what they need to do to get into shape in the offseason. Most armchair quarterbacks here on the forum have no idea what goes on behind the scenes so you really don't know the severity of an injury or what the 'real' diagnosis looks like. The medical staff knows far more than your probably assuming.

And just as an aside here; the guys at Rush Orthopedics are some of the best doctors in the nation. That's not exaggeration, that's a fact. You should be glad the Bulls are affiliated with them. What seems to be left off this conversation is that many of the injuries being discussed in this thread are 'freak injuries' and no amount of prep can eliminate the possibility of them happening.

[McBulls]

You can criticize the training staff and the procedures they employ; however, you have to remember that the player will have the final say on how/what they need to do to get into shape in the offseason. Most armchair quarterbacks here on the forum have no idea what goes on behind the scenes so you really don't know the severity of an injury or what the 'real' diagnosis looks like. The medical staff knows far more than your probably assuming.

And just as an aside here; the guys at Rush Orthopedics are some of the best doctors in the nation. That's not exaggeration, that's a fact. You should be glad the Bulls are affiliated with them. What seems to be left off this conversation is that many of the injuries being discussed in this thread are 'freak injuries' and no amount of prep can eliminate the possibility of them happening.

Freak injuries are presumably, by definition, rare occurrences. But the Bulls seem to have suffered a lot of them in the last few years. More than the average NBA team for sure. How do you explain that? Are Bulls players extraordinarily neglectful and lazy in their off-season regimen?

Or, perhaps, do the great doctors at Rush Orthopedics confine themselves to adding their expertise after the injury occurs, and spend little of their time and effort guiding trainers in how they might prevent injury in players that might be prone to them? Don't bother to answer. I'm cognizant that there is little money to be made from giving advise on how to remain healthy compared to what can be earned by treating injury and illness that could have been prevented.

[Seinfeld]

Pittsburgh Steelers safety Troy Polamalu appeared Sunday to aggravate the right calf injury which forced him to miss the previous two games.

He played one quarter vs. the Philadelphia Eagles after being listed as probable with the injury, then limped off the field during the first half.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nf ... f6481991=1

Pittsburgh Steelers coach Mike Tomlin announced Monday that the team will be without star Troy Polamalu for Thursday's prime-time game against the Tennessee Titans and potentially longer after the safety reinjured his right calf late in the first quarter of the team's 16-14 win against the Philadelphia Eagles.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/20 ... d/1620525/

How can a guy be cleared to play by the team's doctors and then only make it through quarter?

After missing the previous two games, one quarter? And now he's already missed the next game after that quarter, and he will be out "potentially longer"?

[Seinfeld]

Dwight Howard's leg felt 'dead' last season before undergoing back surgery.

Howard said he played longer than he should have due to negative attention surrounding his desire to be traded from the Orlando Magic.

"What a lot of people don't know is, when I hurt my back, it affected my nerves to the point where my whole left leg went dead," Howard said Thursday. "Basically, I couldn't do a calf raise.

"There was a practice where I couldn't even bend over. I just felt it all the way down my leg. That's when I knew something was wrong. The doctor said, 'If you can't do a calf raise, you need to have surgery.' And I couldn't do it."

Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/22 ... z293W2FcI6

So Howard had a practice where he couldn't even bend over, yet he was allowed to keep playing?

The doctor came right out and told him "you need to have surgery", yet the team let him keep playing?

How can a team's doctor clear a guy to play when the doctor knows he needs surgery?

[Seinfeld]

Dallas forward Dirk Nowitzki has a sore, swollen right knee for the second consecutive training camp. Nowitzki might opt to have arthroscopic surgery before the season begins, and the sooner he and the Mavericks can make that decision, he says the better, according to The Dallas Morning News:

"We'll see how it responds. But the longer we wait, obviously the worse it is. If we have to do something, it'd be better to do it quick."

Nowitzki sat out Tuesday's exhibition in Spain against FC Barcelona Regal. Nowitzki played through similar pain last season, and it hampered him so much that he had his worst statistical season since 1999-2000. He also needed four games off to improve his conditioning and get treatment on the knee.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2012/10/11/ ... -mavericks

WOW, so the guy had a bad knee all year last year, and they just blow it off and watch him have his worst season in a decade, and NOW he's getting surgery?

How could the team clear him to play last season when he needed (and still needs) surgery? How could they clear him to start training camp when they know he's had a bad knee since last season?