OFFICIAL:I **** HATE DOLAN, THIS ORG, MELO, JR, ETC THREAD

[GONYK]

While you are right, I find the odds of finding a real franchise player through free agency at an even lower probability. Time after time, it is proven that the guys you get through free agency was free for some reason. For every Lebron/Bosh that you can name (who are anomalies to begin with), I can name you many more guys as in Amare, Larry Hughes, Gilbert Arenas, Carlos Boozer, Rashard Lewis etc. The current NBA structure makes it close to impossible to get great guys through free agency.

I think all that this conversation is proving is that they are both risky. It's clear you have preference, and I can respect that, but I don't think one is a more direct path to a title than the other.

The truth is, you need a mix of both. That is why I said the problem with the Knicks isn't that we committed to building through FA and trades. It's that we didn't keep our first round picks for supplemental talent.

That, and our owner.

[seren]

While you are right, I find the odds of finding a real franchise player through free agency at an even lower probability. Time after time, it is proven that the guys you get through free agency was free for some reason. For every Lebron/Bosh that you can name (who are anomalies to begin with), I can name you many more guys as in Amare, Larry Hughes, Gilbert Arenas, Carlos Boozer, Rashard Lewis etc. The current NBA structure makes it close to impossible to get great guys through free agency.

I think all that this conversation is proving is that they are both risky. It's clear you have preference, and I can respect that, but I don't think one is a more direct path to a title than the other.

The truth is, you need a mix of both. That is why I said the problem with the Knicks isn't that we committed to building through FA and trades. It's that we didn't keep our first round picks for supplemental talent.

That, and our owner.

What I am saying is it is not my preference, but rather it is the league's preference. Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I can recall there have never been any team in the past of the league since the implementation of the salary cap (essentially for the past 30 years) that won a championship without at least one cornerstone player that they drafted (or got on a draft day deal as a rookie, ie Dirk and Kobe) with the exception of Detroit. Heck, probably we can't even name more than one or two more that made the finals that way. So it is more than keeping your picks for supplemental talent. You need to get at least one cornerstone guy from the draft.

Compare that to the Knicks' strategy. The last rookie contract that we extended beyond one year was Charlie Ward. Call it a total failure on making the right picks, being impatient, giving up picks easily or most likely all. There is a reason why we have only won one playoff game over a decade.

[GONYK]

What I am saying is it is not my preference, but rather it is the league's preference. Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I can recall there have never been any team in the past of the league since the implementation of the salary cap (essentially for the past 30 years) that won a championship without at least one cornerstone player that they drafted (or got on a draft day deal as a rookie, ie Dirk and Kobe) with the exception of Detroit. Heck, probably we can't even name more than one or two more that made the finals that way. So it is more than keeping your picks for supplemental talent. You need to get at least one cornerstone guy from the draft.

Compare that to the Knicks' strategy. The last rookie contract that we extended beyond one year was Charlie Ward. Call it a total failure on making the right picks, being impatient, giving up picks easily or most likely all. There is a reason why we have only won one playoff game over a decade.

The inverse of that, is name me one team who won a title without surrounding their drafted star with other major stars acquired through FA or trades.

As far as the Knicks, we have always preferred the proven veteran entity over the potential of the unknown. That worked great for us in the 90's, admittedly with Ewing, but considerably less so in the last decade. That doesn't necessarily mean that the model is unworkable. It means our management executed it horribly.

We have had the opportunity to draft stars, and also trade/sign for great talent. We bungled both over the years.

[seren]

What I am saying is it is not my preference, but rather it is the league's preference. Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I can recall there have never been any team in the past of the league since the implementation of the salary cap (essentially for the past 30 years) that won a championship without at least one cornerstone player that they drafted (or got on a draft day deal as a rookie, ie Dirk and Kobe) with the exception of Detroit. Heck, probably we can't even name more than one or two more that made the finals that way. So it is more than keeping your picks for supplemental talent. You need to get at least one cornerstone guy from the draft.

Compare that to the Knicks' strategy. The last rookie contract that we extended beyond one year was Charlie Ward. Call it a total failure on making the right picks, being impatient, giving up picks easily or most likely all. There is a reason why we have only won one playoff game over a decade.

The inverse of that, is name me one team who won a title without surrounding their drafted star with other major stars acquired through FA or trades.

As far as the Knicks, we have always preferred the proven veteran entity over the potential of the unknown. That worked great for us in the 90's, considerably less so in the last decade. That doesn't necessarily mean that the model is unworkable. It means our management executed it horribly.

That is no the inverse of that. That is the next step. When you get the first step wrong, it is impossible to take next steps. There are many teams that were unsuccessful with draft. There are many teams that failed to surround their franchise players with enough talent (ie the Ewing era). These are all true. There are no teams that were successful without a drafted franchise player (with the exception of '04 Detroit) which is my point.

[GONYK]

That is no the inverse of that. That is the next step. When you get the first step wrong, it is impossible to take next steps. There are many teams that were unsuccessful with draft. There are many teams that failed to surround their franchise players with enough talent (ie the Ewing era). These are all true. There are no teams that were successful without a drafted franchise player (with the exception of '04 Detroit) which is my point.

True, but when you say that, you are ignoring all the teams that went that route and failed. True franchise players that put you in that position to compete all on their own are so rare, that it's hard to fathom building an entire strategy around it. Like I said, look at the Clippers, Bulls, Hawks, Trailblazers, Celtics before KG and Ray etc...

I get what you are saying, then drafting a Pierce or Rondo enables you to have that kind of talent while still affording you the flexibility to get a KG and Ray. But Pierce and Rondo were not franchise players in their own right, and were not worth building around on their own. Neither were Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Ryan Gomes and Jeff Green.

That's why I'm saying, the best you can do get the best talent you can while keeping your picks, and hope you get lucky.

Our problem is that we don't value our picks, and overpay at the first chance we get on a situation.

[cgmw]

The Knicks poached franchise talent through a deadline trade. The new NBA is all about franchise superstars dictating their own terms while still under contract; and the big-market teams fortunate enough to be in play for their services.

The difference between us (with Melo) and the Lakers (with Dwight) is that they showed patience, maximized leverage to their side, and thus retained more of their own talent. They did so because they value the health of their franchise over grabbing a superstar whatever the cost.

On the other hand, Jim Dolan flew to Denver, usurped his own GM, and killed all leverage in order to acquire his superstar.

The succeeding puppet regime has made some pretty impressive lemonade out of the resulting lemons, but the franchise is still reeling from Dolan's mistakes. I"m happy we have Carmelo. I just think it will take years to dig ourselves out of the hole Dolan dug to get him.

I'm not bashing Carmelo, but he can't really complain if/when the Knicks struggle to field a competitive team. He was complicit in driving up the price and seemed all-to-happy with James Dolan's efforts. The fact that it cost the franchise years of assets and flexibility is just something we all have to live with as we watch management grasp at straws with waiver pick ups, older players, retired players, overseas players, players returning from China, players with sketchy CAA ties, etc.

Anywho. If you can't tell,I f*cking hate Jim Dolan.

[GONYK]

The Knicks poached franchise talent through a deadline trade. The new NBA is all about franchise superstars dictating their own terms while still under contract; and the big-market teams fortunate enough to be in play for their services.

The difference between us (with Melo) and the Lakers (with Dwight) is that they showed patience, maximized leverage to their side, and thus retained more of their own talent. They did so because they value the health of their franchise over grabbing a superstar whatever the cost.

On the other hand, Jim Dolan flew to Denver, usurped his own GM, and killed all leverage in order to acquire his superstar.

The succeeding puppet regime has made some pretty impressive lemonade out of the resulting lemons, but the franchise is still reeling from Dolan's mistakes. I"m happy we have Carmelo. I just think it will take years to dig ourselves out of the hole Dolan dug to get him.

I'm not bashing Carmelo, but he can't really complain if/when the Knicks struggle to field a competitive team. He was complicit in driving up the price and seemed all-to-happy with James Dolan's efforts. The fact that it cost the franchise years of assets and flexibility is just something we all have to live with as we watch management grasp at straws with waiver pick ups, older players, retired players, overseas players, players returning from China, players with sketchy CAA ties, etc.

Anywho. If you can't tell,I f*cking hate Jim Dolan.

I don't disagree with you at all.

The biggest difference between us and the Lakers is the patience of our management IMO. The Lakers make basketball decisions. We make financial ones.

Walsh brought that patience to everything he did, and we saw the results. We had a team that wasn't really going anywhere in the short term, but was building toward something. Dolan forced us to cash that in, which I don't disagree with necessarily, but he did so with desperation.

In simple terms, if we were in a vacuum, and could switch Dolan and Buss for just the DH12 deal, I think Dolan would have forced Kupchak to trade both Pau and Bynum to get it done.

We will get a clean slate in 3 years, but that only begs the question of whether or not Jimmy has seen the error of his ways then or not.

[seren]

I understand what you are saying, but what I am saying is a step beyond that. Lakers' decisions are nothing out of ordinary in their long past. They show patience. The first step of that patience is to understand the need for draft. Kobe is drafted and cornerstone. They set that up and build around that. Then Bynum came. There is a reason why we didn't draft Bynum. Because we wanted instant results. So we went after the more ready player in Frye. Then they continued supporting Bynum not including him in every possible trade scenario until the very end when a clear upgrade was out there in Howard.

I disagree with dictating part. Miami was an exception where players collided. Doesn't mean it will ever happen again.

[seren]

The Knicks poached franchise talent through a deadline trade. The new NBA is all about franchise superstars dictating their own terms while still under contract; and the big-market teams fortunate enough to be in play for their services.

The difference between us (with Melo) and the Lakers (with Dwight) is that they showed patience, maximized leverage to their side, and thus retained more of their own talent. They did so because they value the health of their franchise over grabbing a superstar whatever the cost.

On the other hand, Jim Dolan flew to Denver, usurped his own GM, and killed all leverage in order to acquire his superstar.

The succeeding puppet regime has made some pretty impressive lemonade out of the resulting lemons, but the franchise is still reeling from Dolan's mistakes. I"m happy we have Carmelo. I just think it will take years to dig ourselves out of the hole Dolan dug to get him.

I'm not bashing Carmelo, but he can't really complain if/when the Knicks struggle to field a competitive team. He was complicit in driving up the price and seemed all-to-happy with James Dolan's efforts. The fact that it cost the franchise years of assets and flexibility is just something we all have to live with as we watch management grasp at straws with waiver pick ups, older players, retired players, overseas players, players returning from China, players with sketchy CAA ties, etc.

Anywho. If you can't tell,I f*cking hate Jim Dolan.

I don't disagree with you at all.

The biggest difference between us and the Lakers is the patience of our management IMO. The Lakers make basketball decisions. We make financial ones.

Walsh brought that patience to everything he did, and we saw the results. We had a team that wasn't really going anywhere in the short term, but was building toward something. Dolan forced us to cash that in, which I don't disagree with necessarily, but he did so with desperation.

In simple terms, if we were in a vacuum, and could switch Dolan and Buss for just the DH12 deal, I think Dolan would have forced Kupchak to trade both Pau and Bynum to get it done.

I agree with this.

[bklynstoops]

part of the problem with drafting a star is that, generally, you want a stable front office that has some continuity in vision. Certainly there are transcendent players, but I would trust the draft-a-star method if there was a stable FO committed to developing and building around the player over many years. We obviously don't have that. So, I've resigned myself to the fact that the Knicks are about short-term immediate results--spend a ton of money (which is our advantage in this market) and give us a puncher's chance at one year where everything hopefully falls our way. Not so much about sustained success.

[GONYK]

part of the problem with drafting a star is that, generally, you want a stable front office that has some continuity in vision. Certainly there are transcendent players, but I would trust the draft-a-star method if there was a stable FO committed to developing and building around the player over many years. We obviously don't have that. So, I've resigned myself to the fact that the Knicks are about short-term immediate results--spend a ton of money (which is our advantage in this market) and give us a puncher's chance at one year where everything hopefully falls our way. Not so much about sustained success.

That's more or less what Dallas did. They had Dirk, I know, but they pretty much bought the rest of the roster at a premium to make one good run.

[seren]

part of the problem with drafting a star is that, generally, you want a stable front office that has some continuity in vision. Certainly there are transcendent players, but I would trust the draft-a-star method if there was a stable FO committed to developing and building around the player over many years. We obviously don't have that. So, I've resigned myself to the fact that the Knicks are about short-term immediate results--spend a ton of money (which is our advantage in this market) and give us a puncher's chance at one year where everything hopefully falls our way. Not so much about sustained success.

That's more or less what Dallas did. They had Dirk, I know, but they pretty much bought the rest of the roster at a premium to make one good run.

I actually perceive Dallas as a somewhat failure. Dirk is as good as Duncan if not better. I believe Dirk in San Antonio would have multiple rings.

[cgmw]

Agree 100% with Seren's Bynum/Frye example and BKstoop's "puncher's chance" metaphor.

So frustrating.

If half a dozen schmucks (no offense) on a fan forum can see this, why can't Knicks' management?

[GONYK]

part of the problem with drafting a star is that, generally, you want a stable front office that has some continuity in vision. Certainly there are transcendent players, but I would trust the draft-a-star method if there was a stable FO committed to developing and building around the player over many years. We obviously don't have that. So, I've resigned myself to the fact that the Knicks are about short-term immediate results--spend a ton of money (which is our advantage in this market) and give us a puncher's chance at one year where everything hopefully falls our way. Not so much about sustained success.

That's more or less what Dallas did. They had Dirk, I know, but they pretty much bought the rest of the roster at a premium to make one good run.

I actually perceive Dallas as a somewhat failure. Dirk is as good as Duncan if not better. I believe Dirk in San Antonio would have multiple rings.

Eh, I don't think Dirk comes close to Duncan really. TD is on a whole different level defensively and is the better rebounder on top of having a better post game. I would say Duncan is the better facilitator out of the post, though Dirk has made huge strides in that area.

Still though, Cuban took the long way around, but eventually got that ring. Can't really knock it.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

I actually perceive Dallas as a somewhat failure. Dirk is as good as Duncan if not better. I believe Dirk in San Antonio would have multiple rings.

Although I agree that swapping Dirk for Duncan in SA would have yielded >1 ring.

[ibraheim718]

I actually perceive Dallas as a somewhat failure. Dirk is as good as Duncan if not better. I believe Dirk in San Antonio would have multiple rings.

Eh, I don't think Dirk comes close to Duncan really. TD is on a whole different level defensively and is the better rebounder on top of having a better post game. I would say Duncan is the better facilitator out of the post, though Dirk has made huge strides in that area.

Still though, Cuban took the long way around, but eventually got that ring. Can't really knock it.

Take the gloves off GONYK saying that Dirk is or was as good as Duncan is downright ridiculous. What Duncan did defensively and rebounding the ball alone makes him a much more impacting player than Dirk. Duncan is arguably one of the 10 greatest players in basketball history... DIrk isn't even close.

[ibraheim718]

I actually perceive Dallas as a somewhat failure. Dirk is as good as Duncan if not better. I believe Dirk in San Antonio would have multiple rings.

Although I agree that swapping Dirk for Duncan in SA would have yielded >1 ring.

How does Dirk help San Antonio beat a Lakers team WIth Shaq? You put Timmy on Dallas and it's the Mavs with those 4 rings and the Spurs with just 1.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

How does Dirk help San Antonio beat a Lakers team WIth Shaq? You put Timmy on Dallas and it's the Mavs with those 4 rings and the Spurs with just 1.

Didn't say they woulda beaten the Lakers with Shaq.

[Dr. Detfink]

The Knicks poached franchise talent through a deadline trade. The new NBA is all about franchise superstars dictating their own terms while still under contract; and the big-market teams fortunate enough to be in play for their services.

The difference between us (with Melo) and the Lakers (with Dwight) is that they showed patience, maximized leverage to their side, and thus retained more of their own talent. They did so because they value the health of their franchise over grabbing a superstar whatever the cost.

On the other hand, Jim Dolan flew to Denver, usurped his own GM, and killed all leverage in order to acquire his superstar.

The succeeding puppet regime has made some pretty impressive lemonade out of the resulting lemons, but the franchise is still reeling from Dolan's mistakes. I"m happy we have Carmelo. I just think it will take years to dig ourselves out of the hole Dolan dug to get him.

I'm not bashing Carmelo, but he can't really complain if/when the Knicks struggle to field a competitive team. He was complicit in driving up the price and seemed all-to-happy with James Dolan's efforts. The fact that it cost the franchise years of assets and flexibility is just something we all have to live with as we watch management grasp at straws with waiver pick ups, older players, retired players, overseas players, players returning from China, players with sketchy CAA ties, etc.

Anywho. If you can't tell,I f*cking hate Jim Dolan.

If the Knicks made moves for financial reasons, Jerome James would NEVER have been a Knick.

The Knicks are on the verge of becoming the OLDEST team in NBA history (see SI front page article). The KNICKS make moves based on an aging name brand vet surrounding by supporting cast based on spotty performances.

The difference between the Lakers and Knicks? 14 championships.

When you win titles EVERY one is over valued. That entitles teams like the Lakers and Celtics to sell a bridge to a fool like the Knicks.

[GettinitDone]

Orlando agreed to accept Arron Afflalo as the main guy they brought back in Howard trade. They priority was to bring quality character over talent because they strive to change culture of the team.

If we had just friggin matched that contract, we could have traded Lin to Orlando for DH12!!!! I mean, there's probably noone better in L than Lin who embodies great/ committed character, great leader, faithful guy, (he believes in team, not star, culture, he works hard and smart and leads by example, he won't put himself above team, and he won't bitch and demand trade) and he actually has a talent to be a bona-fide star, unlike AA.

I read Rob Hennigan (Orlando new GM) SI article a while back and the article confirmed of this approach (Magic looking for quality personality personnel over talent). So when they're on the verge of trade, and we jumped in and said, "we're offering Jeremy Lin, and fillers", do you seriously think Magic are gonna say, "nah, we like Arron Afflalo better!". Guy seriously can't be that better than Lin personality-wise?? He elbowed a kid (Gordon Hayward) because of frustration! I believe we could trade Lin 3 months after he signed the contract?

Yes, Dwight would have absolutely stayed in NY. It's this type of players that Lakers keep looking to build dynasties, not just a "2-3 years window". Lakers have 14 championships. Knicks = 1. And we're bitching about that $13mil in year 3???? Like it was supposed to come out of our pocket. Who's been duped in the clear day?? Those who support letting Lin go instead of matching Lin (and signing Felton).