#27 Highest Peak of All Time (Pippen '95 wins)

[SDChargers#1]

I am really torn between Baylor, Pippen and Howard.

Pippen and Howard's defense are both way better than Baylor, tho he was the superior scorer. I think Pippen's passing ability gives him the edge on this one.

Vote: '95 Pippen

[tsherkin]

I don't see the case for Durant against those two. Both Pippen/Penny were multi-dimensional, while Durant is all about assisted scoring. I would put him down around where Gervin/Dantley are.

That's one way to look at it.

Another way to look at it is that Durant does a lot to make life easier on his teammates in terms of creating efficient offense. He makes it simple to work with him and he produces a lot of high-volume, hyper-efficient offense. He rebounds well (which Gervin didn't really do) and he doesn't stall ball movement the way Dantley does, and he works on defense, which Gervin didn't do. So right away, neither of those are appropriate comparisons. Versatility isn't NECESSARILY something that makes a player better. In Pippen's case, you can make the argument because he was a solid scorer, a good rebounder, a solid playmaker and a fantastic defender.

In Penny's case, his contributions to offense, are they really enough to compare to what Durant does? It's a debatable point, but I don't think so because of how good a scorer Durant is.

"Off-ball scoring" isn't a dirty phrase; people are fascinated with on-ball creation because it's highlight material stuff, but it's not inherently less valuable than on-ball scoring and Durant CAN score in isos pretty well himself. It's instinct to devalue off-ball scorers, but it's a mistake. It's an instinct to overvalue versatility, as well, but that's not necessarily the right move.

[ElGee]

vote: 95 Pippen

As I've said, this is a tossup vote between Howard and Pippen to me. I could go in a number of different directions for peak year as I've said (91, 92, 95, 97)...but I like the subtle growth in his game throughout the middle part of the decade. As I've said, I'm also partial to his 3-point range, not SIMPLY because of any change in TS% as Productivity alluded to, but because that spaced the floor more for any team.

Scottie Pippen was never a great shooter -- the mechanics of his shot won't allow it. But his margin of error on those mechanics was amplified the farther from the hoop he got...and this happened right around the deep 3-point shot. Pippen also liked to shoot 3's from within the top part of the court (foul-line extended to foul-line extended), as he was a "bank" player once the angle changed on the wing. This means most of his attempts used to be 23' 9"...and from 91-94 he shot 28%. From 98-01 he took 3.6 per game and shot 33%. BUT, from 95-97 Pippen took 4.8 a game at 36.4%. It become a weapon and he used it. He's not Ray Allen, but 36.4% -- a good gauge of how he shot from that distance -- is 55% on 2's. (~1.1 ppp). And he did this WHILE getting to the line a lot. That's why I think it gave his offense a slight boost in value.

96 Pippen was a machine on defense -- I would have voted him over Payton in DPOY rankings every day all day. He struggled in the PS offensively in part because the defensive effort meter was dialed to 11. The Bulls defense went from something like -6 in the RS to -9.5 in the PS. So while we knock 96 a bit because he struggled offensively, he may have easily made up for on defense. So looking in this period (94-97) the last year to consider in 97. You still have the 3-point line shorter, you still get a good offensive performance from Pip in the PS, you have the most experience of all the versions, the defense is still phenomenal, and then you have those ridiculous 13 to 15 SRS stretches Chicago put together. People are too hung up on the differences between the 96 and 97 Bulls -- I watched almost every one of their games and don't think there's a really difference, with an argument to made for 97. (Dele for Wennington may have even helped the bench.)

(An argument against 97 could be his back injury starting in G3 v Washington when he landed funny on the GWing dunk.)

So that leaves 95, and since others really have honed in on the 94-95 years, I'll vote that. (I'll add that Pippen was awesome in 1992 FTR.) I suppose although it's a tossup vote with Dwight for me, I simply have more confidence in my assessment of Pippen's peak than Howard's. If we re-voted after this year (new team, new situation for Dwight) I'll probably have a very clear opinion between them. Now I'll hedge my bets.

@Fatal -- Cool. Just note that when I say McHale's +0.5 or +1 on D at that point in time, that is WELL above average. (A replacement level big on defense might be like -1.5 or even -2, and an average defensive big probably is still on the negative side a bit, especially if we count average as "all bigs" and not just starters.)

[An Unbiased Fan]

I don't see the case for Durant against those two. Both Pippen/Penny were multi-dimensional, while Durant is all about assisted scoring. I would put him down around where Gervin/Dantley are.

That's one way to look at it.

Another way to look at it is that Durant does a lot to make life easier on his teammates in terms of creating efficient offense. He makes it simple to work with him and he produces a lot of high-volume, hyper-efficient offense. He rebounds well (which Gervin didn't really do) and he doesn't stall ball movement the way Dantley does, and he works on defense, which Gervin didn't do. So right away, neither of those are appropriate comparisons. Versatility isn't NECESSARILY something that makes a player better. In Pippen's case, you can make the argument because he was a solid scorer, a good rebounder, a solid playmaker and a fantastic defender.

In Penny's case, his contributions to offense, are they really enough to compare to what Durant does? It's a debatable point, but I don't think so because of how good a scorer Durant is.

"Off-ball scoring" isn't a dirty phrase; people are fascinated with on-ball creation because it's highlight material stuff, but it's not inherently less valuable than on-ball scoring and Durant CAN score in isos pretty well himself. It's instinct to devalue off-ball scorers, but it's a mistake. It's an instinct to overvalue versatility, as well, but that's not necessarily the right move.

1) 96' Penny was just as efficient scoring as 12' Durant(on less volume), and this is with him creating most of his own offense. Around 48% of Durant's points were assisted if I'm correct. So while I agree "off-ball scoring" has real value, Penny's superior ball-handling allowed him to play BOTH styles very effectively. I don't think it would be overvaluing versatility in this case because if you place Durant on a team where he had to be the main ball-handler, he would be less effective. Penny could also play in the post, which is a glaring aspect missing from KD's game.

2) Penny is the far superior playmaker. He gives you 7.1 apg to only 2.8 to, while Durant is 3.5 apg to 3.8 to. So Penny is literrally helping to create efficient offense.

Clearly, Penny is the superior overall offensive player to Durant. With both a skill and versatility advantage.

3) Again, like Gervin, I wonder how much true impact a one-dimensional star truly has. KD is a exceptionally great shooter, but he needs to develop other strengths like Dirk did, to truly rise to this level in my eyes. His rebounding/defense isn't bad, but their nothing particularly special either.

4) I didn't bring up Pippen, because they are quite a few posts already on him. I tend to feel people overlook Penny because of his years after getting injured.

A sample of 96' Penny vs 96' Pippen no less, for those who may have forgot how great he was. KD can score 38 pts of course, but not with the versatility that Penny could.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsEwfI2-QlM[/youtube]

[fatal9]

this is probably the toughest vote, but I'm going to go with 2012 Durant.

the ultimate portable scorer who is amazing at playing off other players and really improved his iso offense, passing and handles last year as well. decent defender, good team leader and despite putting up 30 a night, I'd describe him as unselfish. lot of times you have concerns with stars having big scoring games and how much they are really raising their team's chances at winning, but not so much with Durant because of the way he spaces the floor and plays off the ball. when he gets going, he doesn't keep other guys from getting their opportunities. like Malone, he is a master at scoring in the flow of the game (did someone really compare him to Dantley?!), but he has really good iso offense too because of his shooting ability and length which gets him good looks whenever he wants.

his efficiency for his volume is incredible, 61 TS% in the regular season and over 63 TS% in the playoffs (league average was 52.7 TS% last year). probably has the best extended playoff run out of anyone left. his ability to take over and win playoff games is really impressive, lot of games the Thunder should have lost but didn't because Durant just came on SO strong when games were hanging in the balance. he wins you those 50/50 games in the playoffs because he can just overwhelm you with his scoring at a time in the game where it can be really difficult to create good offense. he went out a little quietly at the end and got shown up by someone who had a top 10, maybe top 5 peak, but we can't ignore how impressive he was up until that point. Dwight gives you more value in the regular season, but he's easier to make adjustments for in the playoffs. Pippen and KD are on the same level for me, Pippen is in another league on defense, KD is in another league on offense, it's about preference and with wings, I tend to go with a) who is more portable (both are amazing in this category) and after that b) whoever has the advantage as an offensive player (clearly KD).

[bastillon]

I'm surprised people are overrating Durant so much. dude is terrible in terms of running an offense. OKC was much better offensive team when Harden was playing on ball as opposed to Durant on ball. a lot of times Durant was scoring off of Harden or Westbrook creating for him. his efficiency is looked upon as some sort of all time outlier because everyone ignores how often he turns the ball over. I'd much rather have someone with 55% TS and 2.5 tov than 60% TS and almost 4 tov. count me as someone who questions whether Durant's impressive scoring stats translates into great impact. I see Harden as more valuable player to that team, imo OKC would lose more without him in the game than without Durant. his ballhandling turnovers, average defense, lack of on ball skills, poor passing and inability to run the offense all raise big flags for me.

Durant vs strong playoff defense is not better than Reggie Miller (a bit worse volume scoring with far better efficiency if you include tov and better passing). Durant's stats overstate his skills. he's a great scorer but he's not a great player. not just yet.

[Doctor MJ]

So, McHale or Baylor? Tough call. The hyper-efficient post scorer who could guard other positions, or LeBron James before LeBron James.

Sorry I just keep chiming in on Baylor, I guess I'm emotional about it.

LeBron before LeBron? No. He was a great athlete sure, but we've had others, some of whom truly blew us away with their efficiency and judgment. Baylor wasn't that.

Put it this way: If LeBron were orders of magnitude less efficient than another star teammate but insisted on shooting more than that teammate even while the other player was a superior ballhandler and playmaker, would he be "LeBron"? No way. He's be seen a serious disappointment.

[MisterWestside]

I see Harden as more valuable player to that team, imo OKC would lose more without him in the game than without Durant.

So you prefer a player who's a putrid defender, posts a higher tov% and plays more minutes than Durant in opportune lineups with fresh and ideal-fitting bench players?

Ah, +/-. The gift and the curse.

[nikomCH]

I honestly do think his defensive impact is comparable to that of the 2nd tier big man anchors (Howard, Ewing, Mourning, etc.).

You have Howard as a 2nd tier big man anchor? Is that just for longevity reasons?

Who are your 1st tier? I assume Russell+Hakeem. Where do you have Duncan and KG?

[JordansBulls]

Voting so far:

09 Howard - 1 (Dr Positivity)

11 Howard - 1 (Doctor MJ)

95 Pippen - 1 (therealbig3)

87 McHale - 1 (Ciz-Me)

96 Penny - 1 (JordansBulls)

Guess everyone is torn here.

[Dr Positivity]

95 Pippen won with votes from therealbig3, SDChargers#1 and ElGee (3) by the deadline, vs Doctor MJ and DavidStern voting 11 Howard (2)

[Doctor MJ]

Wow, alright. Not much of a consensus here, but yes,

Scottie Pippen '95 has been enshrined.

[therealbig3]

I honestly do think his defensive impact is comparable to that of the 2nd tier big man anchors (Howard, Ewing, Mourning, etc.).

You have Howard as a 2nd tier big man anchor? Is that just for longevity reasons?

Who are your 1st tier? I assume Russell+Hakeem. Where do you have Duncan and KG?

Well, actually, I have "2" 1st tiers. Russell is in a class by himself imo, then you have Hakeem/Duncan/KG/Robinson in their own class. I'd include Walton too, but he only did it for 1.5 years, and I'm not sure how he would have sustained it over his career had he stayed healthy. Maybe Thurmond too, but I think he's a tad bit behind these other guys.

So then in my "real" 2nd tier, I have the guys who I don't think are quite on that level, like Howard/Mourning/Ewing. Everything I've seen (RAPM/on-off/eye test) clearly ranks Duncan and Garnett ahead of Howard as a defensive player, and since I consider them to be on par with Hakeem and Robinson, Howard drops to 2nd tier.

[BattleTested]

Can anyone tell me why Pippen is enshrined in 95 as opposed to 94. I thought the consensus was that his peak was 94.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Can anyone tell me why Pippen is enshrined in 95 as opposed to 94. I thought the consensus was that his peak was 94.

Great question. Pippen was better in 1994, he was clearly driven to prove himself that season.

[ardee]

I don't mind Pippen getting voted in but I genuinely can't fanthom why ANYONE would choose '95 Pippen over '94 Pippen. He was a better passer, rebounder, scorer on volume and efficiency, and while healthy he was leading the Bulls to a very good record.

[therealbig3]

Why 95 Pippen over 94 Pippen:

95 Pippen is the same player as 94 Pippen, only:
-more experienced
-healithier
-better 3-point shooter (due to the rules)

As such, it's really hard for me to side with what he did in 94 over 95. Not to mention the team result is arguably better as a major point of comparison (+4.3 SRS with Grant-based lineup in 94, +3.8 SRS w/no Grant in 95 -- Armstrong -- Harper/Myers -- Kukoc -- Purdue). The team was on fire with Myers in in the 13g before Jordan returned, playing 9.3 SRS over those 13 games (-6.7 DRtg), which means from G53 to 65 the Bulls played (2.2 points) better than in any 13-game stretch with Michael Jordan "replacing" Harper. As I've said, it's hard to criticize the end of the 95 season because the odds of "super alpha GOAT player returning from retirement at end of season to tilt Pippen's dynamic" are almost 0.

Can someone present the argument for why 94 Pip would be better for a team than 95 Pip?

94 Pippen tends to get praised as Pippen's peak because of the team result and Pippen's slightly better RS stats...but he seemed to be doing more in 95 in terms of impact and as such, I'm actually more impressed with the team result in 95 than in 94, because they were playing without Grant, and yet, still had a comparable SRS without him. He was one year more experienced, which suggests he was a little wiser. And btw, he was better in the playoffs in 95 than in 94, as far as production goes. He cut back on his scoring, because Jordan was back, but he improved his defense, rebounding, and playmaking, and he cut down his TOs. Better efficiency too (partly because of the shorter line).

[lorak]

There's no area except of experience as a leader (and it matters less here, because at the end of the season and in the playoffs he was again in Jordan's shadow) where 95 Pippen was better than '94 Pippen (for example difference in 3pt shooting is because of rules change, not Pippen's improvement!).
95 Pippen winning 27 spot by getting only three (!) votes is the biggest question mark on this project so far.

[therealbig3]

There's no area except of experience as a leader (and it matters less here, because at the end of the season and in the playoffs he was again in Jordan's shadow) where 95 Pippen was better than '94 Pippen (for example difference in 3pt shooting is because of rules change, not Pippen's improvement!).
95 Pippen winning 27 spot by getting only three (!) votes is the biggest question mark on this project so far.

Ok, so slightly better RS stats proves 94 Pippen was better? 95 Pippen was better in the playoffs, other than scoring less (because of Jordan).

What about leading a +3.8 SRS team without Grant in the lineup vs +4.3 SRS with Grant in the lineup in 94? Minimal dropoff despite losing their 2nd best player.

And maybe more people should vote next time, it's not anyone else's fault that they didn't.

[lorak]

There's no area except of experience as a leader (and it matters less here, because at the end of the season and in the playoffs he was again in Jordan's shadow) where 95 Pippen was better than '94 Pippen (for example difference in 3pt shooting is because of rules change, not Pippen's improvement!).
95 Pippen winning 27 spot by getting only three (!) votes is the biggest question mark on this project so far.

Ok, so slightly better RS stats proves 94 Pippen was better? 95 Pippen was better in the playoffs, other than scoring less (because of Jordan).

What about leading a +3.8 SRS team without Grant in the lineup vs +4.3 SRS with Grant in the lineup in 94? Minimal dropoff despite losing their 2nd best player.

Different rule. Three point line change increased perimeter players offensive AND defensive value. That's why MAYBE (no one should trust SRS numbers without context) Pippen look's better in 1995. But in reality he wasn't different player, in fact he was worse in a leader role at the end of the season and in the playoffs.