#28 Highest Peak of All Time (Penny '96 wins)

PTB Fan · Post #21 » by **PTB Fan** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:31 pm

Does anyone here have Nate Thurmond coming up soon?

He was really outstanding in the late 60's, but in the shadows of his famous counterparts Russell and Wilt. Where do you have him at?

Lightning25 · Post #22 » by **Lightning25** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:36 pm

C-izMe wrote:Gervin's career average pp36 is 26.9. KD averaged 26.2 last year. Gervin has more volume on a career average. His high is 32.6 (56TS) and his most efficent year is 25.2 (60.5TS). Saying he's worse than the arguable second best scorer ever isn't a slight on him. Go back to the 77-79 RPOY threads and read up on Gervin.

Do you think it has more to do with the fact that Gervin played with no other offensive options during his time, rather than Gervin being a better scorer? Durant doesn't need to score as much in order to help his team win but he has shown he has can and can also help his team win, (see 2010 season, 30 ppg, high efficiency, teammates weren't that good yet, 50 win season).

What players have been put in yet that couldn't either run an offense or anchor a defense?

Charles Barkley and Moses Malone.

23rd in DRB% (72.1), 11th in ORB% (27.8).
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/2012.html

And they were top 5 in REBR which is the best stat to determine good rebounding from a team.

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamst ... eboundRate

C-izMe · Post #23 » by **C-izMe** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:14 pm

Lightning25 wrote:
C-izMe wrote:Gervin's career average pp36 is 26.9. KD averaged 26.2 last year. Gervin has more volume on a career average. His high is 32.6 (56TS) and his most efficent year is 25.2 (60.5TS). Saying he's worse than the arguable second best scorer ever isn't a slight on him. Go back to the 77-79 RPOY threads and read up on Gervin.

Do you think it has more to do with the fact that Gervin played with no other offensive options during his time, rather than Gervin being a better scorer? Durant doesn't need to score as much in order to help his team win but he has shown he has can and can also help his team win, (see 2010 season, 30 ppg, high efficiency, teammates weren't that good yet, 50 win season).

I actually think his efficency would rise dramatically with another option on his team. Durant could score as much as Gervin but IMO his efficency would probably drop to around 55-57 TS (for about 28 pp36). Gervin did that in his non peak seasons.

What players have been put in yet that couldn't either run an offense or anchor a defense?

Charles Barkley and Moses Malone.

Chuck has led a great offense before so it's not even hypothetical. I also disagreed with Moses being chosen so high anyway.

23rd in DRB% (72.1), 11th in ORB% (27.8).
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/2012.html

And they were top 5 in REBR which is the best stat to determine good rebounding from a team.

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamst ... eboundRate

IDK about rebound rate since I usually stick to TRB%. Strange how they yield such different results.

Lightning25 · Post #24 » by **Lightning25** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:22 pm

C-izMe wrote:I actually think his efficency would rise dramatically with another option on his team. Durant could score as much as Gervin but IMO his efficency would probably drop to around 55-57 TS (for about 28 pp36). Gervin did that in his non peak seasons.

Purely opinion and hypothetical, and I don't like how you adjust per 36. Credit Durant for having the stamina to log in those amount of minutes.

Chuck has led a great offense before so it's not even hypothetical. I also disagreed with Moses being chosen so high anyway.

You asked who didn't run an offense, Barkley never ran an offense and he surely never anchored a defense. If you want to talk about how Barkley led his team to such a high team offensive rating then we could talk the same with Durant since he led the Thunder to 2nd in ORTG last season.

I suppose you could arguably add Karl Malone to the list as well but you could argue he was the defensive anchor.

IDK about rebound rate since I usually stick to TRB%. Strange how they yield such different results.

rebound rate and TRB% is the same, you just used ORB% and DRB%, I don't know how the Thunder are so low in those regards but so high in TRB% though.

C-izMe · Post #25 » by **C-izMe** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:26 pm

Chuck led the Suns in regular and post season USG%. KD didn't.

And Gervin scored more per game too.

thizznation · Post #26 » by **thizznation** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:34 am

I believe that Howard('09 or '11) has more impact than anyone left on the board.

colts18 · Post #27 » by **colts18** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:41 am

What about Howard 10? They had their best year in the regular season. Their 7.12 SRS was #1 in the NBA. In the playoffs, they swept through the first 2 round. Then against Boston, howard averaged 22-11, .568 TS%. That was his best year ever as far as efficiency (.630 TS%). They had the #3 defense in the league with Carter, Lewis, Barnes, and Jameer as his cast (not a good defensive cast at all).

Lightning25 · Post #28 » by **Lightning25** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:01 am

C-izMe wrote:Chuck led the Suns in regular and post season USG%. KD didn't.

What does that have to do with anything? You asked players who couldn't run an offense, yeah Barkley couldn't run an offense.

Running an offense =/= leading a team in USG%.

But for the record, Durant did lead his team in USG% in 2010, so I guess he ran the offense then according to your logic.

Do you have any more agenda riddled exceptions for Durant?

And Gervin scored more per game too.

Faster pace, lesser teammates, less efficiency, and probably less versatile.

Plus, Durant is the better all-around player so I don't care either way.

C-izMe · Post #29 » by **C-izMe** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:33 am

He led the 12th offense in 2010. Not good.

Honestly I have no idea how you can say Chuck didn't lead their offense. He got the ball nearly every play. I'm not saying KD doesn't lead the offense because he's not a playmaker or doesn't pass it's because Westbrook takes it down court, many times looks for KD, but mostly goes into the PNR with Collison/Ibaka, or an isolation and goes to work. OKC's most common play was the Westbrook two-man game (PNR & PNP).

Lightning25 · Post #30 » by **Lightning25** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:37 am

C-izMe wrote:He led the 12th offense in 2010. Not good.

Honestly I have no idea how you can say Chuck didn't lead their offense. He got the ball nearly every play. I'm not saying KD doesn't lead the offense because he's not a playmaker or doesn't pass

KD led his team in FGA and FTA, so I don't know what the deal is. USG% is beyond FGA and FTA you know, it's about assists and other stuff as well.

So yeah, Kevin Durant led his team to #2 in ORTG last season.

Westbrook takes it down court, many times looks for KD, but mostly goes into the PNR with Collison/Ibaka, or an isolation and goes to work. OKC's most common play was the Westbrook two-man game (PNR & PNP).

And many times he doesn't even bother passing it to him because he is too out of control and doesn't want to make any risk passes.

Do you have more exceptions? I'm pretty sure I didn't convince you either way because you're already convinced Durant sucks and is not top 50 and nobody can change that from you.

C-izMe · Post #31 » by **C-izMe** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:59 am

In 2010 they had the 12th offense. If your arguing he can lead a 12th ranked offense your clearly misguided.

In 2012 WESTBROOK led the offense. He HAD THE MOST POSSESSIONS. KD was the best player and the spiritual leader but Westbrook led in play. USG% is literally the percentage of plays you personally end. Westbrook leads because he has the ball more and ge's more active on that end.

And you didn't convince me because your saying opinions (that are completely biased), not understanding the usage of simple numbers, and resorting to personal attacks when I rebut your terrible arguments. This is getting old fast and unless your going to, A) Stop using pointless personal attacks and make a point B) Pay attention to the evidence that he's not as good as you think or C) Look to see how good other candidates are and compare them to KD to see why his weaknesses stand out in comparison to them, your not going to make a convincing argument.

Lightning25 · Post #32 » by **Lightning25** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:09 am

C-izMe wrote:In 2012 WESTBROOK led the offense. He HAD THE MOST POSSESSIONS. KD was the best player and the spiritual leader but Westbrook led in play. USG% is literally the percentage of plays you personally end. Westbrook leads because he has the ball more and ge's more active on that end.

Nope, Durant led the offense, it's as simple as that. He was the best player, took the most shots, and led his team to 2nd in the league in offense.

Durant's Individual ORTG was 115
Westbrook's individual ORTG was 108

Which goes to show you Durant was the leading force since he was the team leader in individual ORTG.

Who cares if Westbrook had more possessions or more time with the ball?

That just makes Durant more special because of how portable he is and how he can let other players on his team shine and maximize their potential along with Durant maximizing and dominating in his own regard.

And you didn't convince me because your saying opinions (that are completely biased), not understanding the usage of simple numbers, and resorting to personal attacks when I rebut your terrible arguments. This is getting old fast and unless your going to, A) Stop using pointless personal attacks and make a point B) Pay attention to the evidence that he's not as good as you think or C) Look to see how good other candidates are and compare them to KD to see why his weaknesses stand out in comparison to them, your not going to make a convincing argument.

No, I'm pretty sure it's because you are convinced that Durant sucks no matter what. I could use selective stats all I want to make someone look bad but I'm not going to because that's just stupid and completely biased

lol at calling me out for having a biased opinion. YOU of all people. :lol:

Hey, at least you'll probably vote for one of my favorite players in Yao Ming, before Durant. :lol:

Lightning25 · Post #33 » by **Lightning25** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:17 am

I'm actually not even going to bother responding to this kid again. The same way therealbig3 stopped talking to me when he got tired of me downplaying Tmac.

I'll just quote fatal9 from the previous thread on Durant, not sure if he is going to vote for Durant this time or again but he made excellent posts.

fatal9 wrote:this is probably the toughest vote, but I'm going to go with 2012 Durant.

the ultimate portable scorer who is amazing at playing off other players and really improved his iso offense, passing and handles last year as well. decent defender, good team leader and despite putting up 30 a night, I'd describe him as unselfish. lot of times you have concerns with stars having big scoring games and how much they are really raising their team's chances at winning, but not so much with Durant because of the way he spaces the floor and plays off the ball. when he gets going, he doesn't keep other guys from getting their opportunities. like Malone, he is a master at scoring in the flow of the game (did someone really compare him to Dantley?!), but he has really good iso offense too because of his shooting ability and length which gets him good looks whenever he wants.

his efficiency for his volume is incredible, 61 TS% in the regular season and over 63 TS% in the playoffs (league average was 52.7 TS% last year). probably has the best extended playoff run out of anyone left. his ability to take over and win playoff games is really impressive, lot of games the Thunder should have lost but didn't because Durant just came on SO strong when games were hanging in the balance. he wins you those 50/50 games in the playoffs because he can just overwhelm you with his scoring at a time in the game where it can be really difficult to create good offense. he went out a little quietly at the end and got shown up by someone who had a top 10, maybe top 5 peak, but we can't ignore how impressive he was up until that point. Dwight gives you more value in the regular season, but he's easier to make adjustments for in the playoffs. Pippen and KD are on the same level for me, Pippen is in another league on defense, KD is in another league on offense, it's about preference and with wings, I tend to go with a) who is more portable (both are amazing in this category) and after that b) whoever has the advantage as an offensive player (clearly KD).

Narigo · Post #34 » by **Narigo** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:25 am

Lightning25 wrote:Nope, Durant led the offense, it's as simple as that. He was the best player, took the most shots, and led his team to 2nd in the league in offense.

Durant's Individual ORTG was 115
Westbrook's individual ORTG was 108

Which goes to show you Durant was the leading force since he was the team leader in individual ORTG.

Harden OTRG was 122.

Lightning25 · Post #35 » by **Lightning25** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:27 am

Narigo wrote:
Harden OTRG was 122
he was more impact on the offense side than both WB and Durant

I hope you understand that I don't even agree with that logic. I'm just nitpicking his selective stats that make Durant look worse than he is. He is the biggest Durant hater on this site, more than likely. Before this vote, I see this kid all the time running in every Durant thread calling him overrated and how someone is always better than him and then him claiming to be some Durant fan. :lol:

Plus, Durant did have a higher ORTG than both in the post-season.

C-izMe · Post #36 » by **C-izMe** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:39 am

Lightning25 wrote:
Narigo wrote:
Harden OTRG was 122
he was more impact on the offense side than both WB and Durant

I hope you understand that I don't even agree with that logic. I'm just nitpicking his selective stats that make Durant look worse than he is. He is the biggest Durant hater on this site, more than likely. Before this vote, I see this kid all the time running in every Durant thread calling him overrated and how someone is always better than him and then him claiming to be some Durant fan.

Plus, Durant did have a higher ORTG than both in the post-season.

Your hilarious. Did you just say I claimed to be a Durant fan? Your clearly lying right now. Your clearly a very emotional and biased poster and I personally don't see how someone who has basically spent more than half of his posts in the project bashing TMac or another poster, has stayed in. Just drop it.

Lightning25 · Post #37 » by **Lightning25** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:42 am

C-izMe wrote: Your hilarious. Did you just say I claimed to be a Durant fan? Your clearly lying right now. Your clearly a very emotional and biased poster and I personally don't see how someone who has basically spent more than half of his posts in the project bashing TMac or another poster, has stayed in. Just drop it.

Drop what? It's all true, I remember reading a thread if you claiming how you are some Durant fan and you just happen to be very "unbiased" about it. I lold when I saw that.

lol at you calling someone very biased again, I love the irony of your posts. :lol:

Post #38 » by **Doctor MJ** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:43 am

Quit it guys. If you can't get along, stop talking to each other.

Post #39 » by **Doctor MJ** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:44 am

PTB Fan wrote:Does anyone here have Nate Thurmond coming up soon?

He was really outstanding in the late 60's, but in the shadows of his famous counterparts Russell and Wilt. Where do you have him at?

Well, I have Artis Gilmore pretty easily ahead of Thurmond. Reed and Cowens possibly as well.

Lightning25 · Post #40 » by **Lightning25** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:46 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Quit it guys. If you can't get along, stop talking to each other.

I apologize, but from now I will just simply stop talking to him from this point forward about Durant, maybe with other players though.

Anyways, Doctor MJ, who do you have as your next 5? Durant in the mix? Yao any time soon?