Deron Williams vs Andrew Bynum?

[Kobeskillz]

BTW, if you put a guy like Westbrook on a team like the Magic, would anyone ever think playoffs? That's how you know these guys are overrated. With guys like Dwight and Bynum, you expect playoffs(some even think ECF, which I think is a little ambitious), regardless of their supporting cast. With guys like Wiliiams and Westbrook, you expect lottery, and brush it off like it's nothing.

Howard is obviously better than Westbrook, so that doesn't prove anything. Nobody says Westbrook is better.

Put Bynum on the Nets instead of Deron, and they win 15 games. That supporting cast was an absolute joke, and no, I don't expect playoffs with any supporting cast around Bynum. WTH has he proved as a number 1 option that you would automatically expect playoffs with Bynum and a garbage supporting cast? At best, all he's been is the 3rd best player on a 2nd round team that was spoonfed off the defensive attention that the two better players received.

You were making some good points until you said that. Come on man seriously? While Bynum has issues there is no way they will ONLY 15 games with that cast and Bynum and Brooks backing him up or a twin tower scenario. Get real.

[PetroNet]

You were making some good points until you said that. Come on man seriously? While Bynum has issues there is no way they will ONLY 15 games with that cast and Bynum and Brook backing him up or a twin tower scenario. Get real.

lopez was injured all last season, so bynum wouldnt have him to team up with or spell him. if you replaced Deron with bynum, the nets team would have been:

Farmar/Gaines
Brooks/Morrow
Stephenson/Green
Humphries/Jordan Williams
Bynum/Johan Petro/Sheldon williams

that team is most certainly not winning 22 games. 15 doesnt seem outlandish at all. that team would have the worst PG/backcourt in the league, by a far margin, and no scoring from the 3/4 spots. no depth, and very little defense. Bynum woudl also have to play 38+ minutes a night as the only (not first, but only)option.

And thats not even really a huge knock on bynum, just points out how terrible that team was. those are the LEFTOVERS from a 70 loss team. not the best players of a 70 loss team, but the leftovers(i.e. no devin harris or lopez) when you put it in perspective, its not hard to tell why deron struggled to shoot the ball well last season

[tsherkin]

An interesting comparison.

With Bynum, there are enough questions that I struggle with this one, but if he comes through, then I'd think it's going to be him showing through as the better player.

With him, you've got two key questions:

1) Will he be healthy?

Let's just assume "yes" on this one, but recognize that it's a very serious question. He's had a LOT of trouble with his knees and that doesn't actually improve with age, it gets worse. Multiple surgeries != a good thing, even if the injuries themselves weren't all chronic failure of his body to hold up to the stress of basketball; the surgeries alone cause stress, damage and long-term implications, rehab or not, and he's a big dude.

2) How will he react in Philly?

I think it's obvious that he'll be the primary option on offense, which bodes well for his defensive focus, since he's generally shown defensive effort on a much higher level when he's regularly involved in the offense. The real questions center around how his offense will react to being the primary focus of the defense and whether or not his passing will rise to the occasion.

If Bynum answers these questions and comes through as like a 20/11/2.5 type player while adding strong defense (not even DPOY-caliber stuff, just strong, consistent interior defense), then I can't see Deron making a compelling case against Drew.

If.

[PetroNet]

If Bynum answers these questions and comes through as like a 20/11/2.5 type player while adding strong defense (not even DPOY-caliber stuff, just strong, consistent interior defense), then I can't see Deron making a compelling case against Drew.

If.

so basically you would take a 2008 Al Jefferson over Deron Williams?

Dwill is being insanely underrated in this thread

[tsherkin]

so basically you would take a 2008 Al Jefferson over Deron Williams?

What an AWFUL comparison....

Jefferson was WAY less effective at drawing fouls and dominating FG%, plus he was never anything resembling Bynum's level of efficacy as a defender.

Don't forget, Jefferson is a career 50.1% FG player, 53.2% TS, 109 ORTG, 0.258 FTA/FGA.

Bynum is a career 56.6% FG, 60% TS, 116 ORTG, 0.429 FTA/FGA player.

I intend no personal offense, but that's about the worst comparison you can make, because they're nothing alike in their impact on either end of the floor apart from the fact that both are unimpressive passers. Bynum is a way more valuable offensive weapon than Jefferson and a way better defender as well.

I think you need to take a minute to really reorient yourself as to Bynum's actual nature and understand the hypothetical I posed before spouting off as you have.

[Texas Chuck]

a young top 3 legit center or a top 10 pg? Hmmmm. This is clearly Bynum.

[Woodsanity]

If Bynum answers these questions and comes through as like a 20/11/2.5 type player while adding strong defense (not even DPOY-caliber stuff, just strong, consistent interior defense), then I can't see Deron making a compelling case against Drew.

If.

so basically you would take a 2008 Al Jefferson over Deron Williams?

Dwill is being insanely underrated in this thread

Wow just wow. What an incredibly terrible comparison between two players that are nothing alike.
How is D. Will being underrated when he is being compared to the 2nd best C in the league? D. Will is not even a clear cut top 3 PG atm. I would take CP3, Rose, Rondo, WB, and TP over him.

[624]

I'll take the better player who also happens to have knees.

[PetroNet]

so basically you would take a 2008 Al Jefferson over Deron Williams?

What an AWFUL comparison....

Jefferson was WAY less effective at drawing fouls and dominating FG%, plus he was never anything resembling Bynum's level of efficacy as a defender.

Don't forget, Jefferson is a career 50.1% FG player, 53.2% TS, 109 ORTG, 0.258 FTA/FGA.

Bynum is a career 56.6% FG, 60% TS, 116 ORTG, 0.429 FTA/FGA player.

I intend no personal offense, but that's about the worst comparison you can make, because they're nothing alike in their impact on either end of the floor apart from the fact that both are unimpressive passers. Bynum is a way more valuable offensive weapon than Jefferson and a way better defender as well.

I think you need to take a minute to really reorient yourself as to Bynum's actual nature and understand the hypothetical I posed before spouting off as you have.

jefferson never had the benefit of playing with a kobe and a pau. a top 5 offensive wing and top 8 to top 10 offensive big. i think you are going to see bynums efficiency plummet as a #1 option with no other elite scorer to take pressure off and double teams away

[PetroNet]

If Bynum answers these questions and comes through as like a 20/11/2.5 type player while adding strong defense (not even DPOY-caliber stuff, just strong, consistent interior defense), then I can't see Deron making a compelling case against Drew.

If.

so basically you would take a 2008 Al Jefferson over Deron Williams?

Dwill is being insanely underrated in this thread

Wow just wow. What an incredibly terrible comparison between two players that are nothing alike.
How is D. Will being underrated when he is being compared to the 2nd best C in the league? D. Will is not even a clear cut top 3 PG atm. I would take CP3, Rose, Rondo, WB, and TP over him.

bynum is the #2 or #3 center by default. center is the weakest position in the league by far. saying he is better then greg monroe, hibbert, and gortat isnt all that impressive.

[therealbig3]

This really does show how underrated Deron Williams is.

I understand not everyone subscribes to RAPM, but it is one of the best ways to measure "impact", and there's a lot of people saying Bynum as a big just has more impact than Deron.

2012 Bynum RAPM: +0.4 (-0.9 offense, +1.3 defense)

2012 Deron RAPM: +2.4 (+3.3 offense, -0.9 defense)

Yes, Bynum has much more defensive impact than Deron, but that's mainly because Deron was a crap defender last year, not because Bynum is super amazing. He's not really close to the better defenders in the league in that regard.

Offensively, Bynum is actually a negative. I've seen posters on here talk about how skilled he is offensively, but he's a ball stopper that has bad shot selection and turns it over a lot when doubled. Not a good combination, and it really mitigates his efficient scoring, and seems to do more damage than good. I've seen Lakers fans complain about the lack of spacing they had with Bynum on the court, and how Gasol was reduced to exclusively a passer/midrange shooter, and Kobe couldn't really take advantage of his post game.

Meanwhile, Deron ranks as one of the best offensive players in the game. He's not super elite, like Dirk (+4.8), Paul (+5.3), Nash (+4.7), or LeBron (+4.2), but he's in that 2nd tier...not counting Ginobili, who didn't play much at all last season, Deron ranked 12th in the league offensively...and compared to players that played +/- 5 mpg as he did, he ranked 9th.

Granted, it's one measurement, but it's one that's clearly in Deron's favor. Then you look at on/off, and the Nets were a -0.21 team with Deron on the court vs -14.69 with Deron on the bench (+14.48). They even played better defense with him on the court.

Compare that to Bynum. With Bynum on the floor, the Lakers were a +2.03 team vs +1.46 with him on the bench (+0.58). Their offense was worse with him on the court.

So that's two "impact" measurements that are CLEARLY in Deron's favor.

[therealbig3]

BTW, if you put a guy like Westbrook on a team like the Magic, would anyone ever think playoffs? That's how you know these guys are overrated. With guys like Dwight and Bynum, you expect playoffs(some even think ECF, which I think is a little ambitious), regardless of their supporting cast. With guys like Wiliiams and Westbrook, you expect lottery, and brush it off like it's nothing.

Howard is obviously better than Westbrook, so that doesn't prove anything. Nobody says Westbrook is better.

Put Bynum on the Nets instead of Deron, and they win 15 games. That supporting cast was an absolute joke, and no, I don't expect playoffs with any supporting cast around Bynum. WTH has he proved as a number 1 option that you would automatically expect playoffs with Bynum and a garbage supporting cast? At best, all he's been is the 3rd best player on a 2nd round team that was spoonfed off the defensive attention that the two better players received.

What nonsense. True, Bynum hasn't proven anything as a #1 option, but to say that he's the 3rd best player last year is a joke. The Lakers have Steve Nash, Kobe and Pau and look at how much they're looking toward Howard's return. Quite frankly, without Bynum/Dwight, that team would be fighting to get out of the 1st round this year. Without Bynum last year, there's a good chance they would have missed the playoffs altogether.

You need to stop grouping Dwight and Bynum together. Dwight is obviously a much better player.

The Lakers without Dwight are probably still a top 4 seed.

As far as making the playoffs by the 76ers, do you want to make a money bet that they will do so? I mean, right now, their only proven player is Holiday, and he's more or less equal to Kris Humphries, and there is a pretty big difference between making the playoffs and a 33% win percentage.

The Sixers are a good supporting cast, so I'm not sure what you're saying. Kris Humphries is an average rotation player who got serious minutes and the chance to stat pad on a poor supporting cast. I also like how you don't compare the rosters any further beyond Kris Humphries. It's sad enough that Kris Humphries was their 2nd best player, but the fact that they didn't even have any other player of note (unless you want to count a rookie Marshon Brooks who wasn't that good) is just funny, and makes any comparison to the Sixers supporting cast laughable.

Young/Young/Holiday/Allen/Turner/Richardson is a solid supporting cast...Humphries/Brooks/Morrow/Stevenson/Shelden/Petro is beyond fail.

Oh, and the Nets last year were 1-10 without Deron. The Lakers were 3-3 without Bynum.

[tsherkin]

jefferson never had the benefit of playing with a kobe and a pau. a top 5 offensive wing and top 8 to top 10 offensive big. i think you are going to see bynums efficiency plummet as a #1 option with no other elite scorer to take pressure off and double teams away

You are correct, of course, but you're also still ignoring what I said in my OP. Read it again, and you'll see.

The real questions center around how his offense will react to being the primary focus of the defense and whether or not his passing will rise to the occasion.

If Bynum answers these questions and comes through as like a 20/11/2.5 type player while adding strong defense (not even DPOY-caliber stuff, just strong, consistent interior defense), then I can't see Deron making a compelling case against Drew.

Notice how I pose the question of whether or not he'll react well to being the primary offensive weapon? Then I say "if Bynum answers these questions," and even better, I added another "if" as the last word in my post.

You spouting off as if some grave injustice was done when I said I'd take Bynum over Deron if Drew answers those questions is tiresome and pointless, you're making up reasons to be irritable.