OFFICIAL - Amare Must Go Thread (all hate here) #TRADESTAT

[Deeeez Knicks]

The 2010 team was inconsistent mainly because of Felton and because D’Antoni’s teams rely on pgs so much. Felton started off slow, Knicks started off slow. He had that stretch where he played like an allstar and the Knicks had there best stretch of the season. Then he played like crap and the Knicks struggled.

This is why I’m not crazy about Felton either. He has always been inconsistent. Last season, the season with the Knicks, and the seasons before the Knicks. I doubt Woodson will rely on Felton nearly as much but one can only hope that Felton peaks during the playoffs. When Felton has his rough stretches he is brutal.

[Ignitowsky]

The 2010 team was inconsistent mainly because of Felton and because D’Antoni’s teams rely on pgs so much. Felton started off slow, Knicks started off slow. He had that stretch where he played like an allstar and the Knicks had there best stretch of the season. Then he played like crap and the Knicks struggled.

This is why I’m not crazy about Felton either. He has always been inconsistent. Last season, the season with the Knicks, and the seasons before the Knicks. I doubt Woodson will rely on Felton nearly as much but one can only hope that Felton peaks during the playoffs. When Felton has his rough stretches he is brutal.

The huge difference between these Knicks and those knicks is that we have two VERY capable PGs that can step in and run the team if Ray falters. Both are good pick and roll PGs, both are good passers, and both play good defense. I also thinik that Ray will benefit from having a HOF PG whispering in his ear during games, and also to play against in practice. Of all the positions on the team I am worried about the 1 the least.

[21shumpshumpst]

In that extra year, there'd be Lee, Felton if he picks up his option, Novak, and Shumpert. That's around $25M which isn't bad at all. We'd also shed around $8M in capspace the year before which could be important to the FO once the new tax rules kick in. Golden State only has rookie contracts in the year of Amare's expiring, so his contract might look enticing to them. Not to mention how better this team would look with a guy who rebounds, passes and doesn't need the ball to be effective.

I would assume we would extend Melo and Shump would need to be extended too. So I don't think much money will be left. But no worries. It is a given Shump will be traded by then as it is a Knicks tradition not to keep their draft picks beyond their rookie contracts.

What rookie was worth extended in the past 10 years? You make it sounds like we have had all stars/future HOFers every year and we just let them go.
Here is the list of our drafts picks since 2000
2000 1 22 Donnell Harvey - Bust
2000 2 39 Lavor Postell - Bust
2001 2 38 Michael Wright -Bust
2001 2 42 Eric Chenowith - Bust
2002 1 7 Nenê - Traded never really ours.
2002 2 36 Miloš Vujanic - Bust
2003 1 9 Michael Sweetney - Bust
2003 2 30 Maciej Lampe - Bust
2003 2 39 Slavko Vraneš - Bust
2004 2 44 Trevor Ariza - Couldn't afford to pay him.
2005 1 8 Channing Frye - Bust
2005 1 30 David Lee+ - Good player not worth his contract. Everyone agreed at the time right move was to trad him.
2005 2 54 Dijon Thompson - Bust
2006 1 20 Renaldo Balkman - Bust
2006 1 29 Mardy Collins - Bust
2007 1 23 Wilson Chandler - Melo Trade which we won.
2008 1 6 Danilo Gallinari - Melo Trade which we won.
2009 1 8 Jordan Hill - Bust
2010 2 38 Andy Rautins - Bust
2010 2 39 Landry Fields - Bust
2011 1 17 Iman Shumpert - Still with the team.
2012 2 48 Kostas Papanikolao - Bust

The majority of our draft picks were busts.
The only players you might have a case with were:
Lee who no one wanted to max out. We traded him in a deal everyone loved at the time. So you can't complain about him.
Ariza who was a 2nd rounder so we didn't have bird rights.
GAllo/Chandler who were traded for an all star.

Seriously you have no legs to stand on.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

[GALLO WASN't a bad defender actually, but we could have added a number of guys who could defend the center spot.. just think of someone like chuck hayes.. great defender, rebounder and he would not get in amare's way.. I don't think that team was trending down at all.. like most young team, they hit rough patches.. as I said, how many teams in the league giving 3 young players heavy rotation minutes anchored by an allstar player are even sniffing .500 ball? look around the league, this league is filled with good young talented teams that are so far under .500 they are at risk of being relegated to the CBA......

the knicks had amare, felton and a bunch of kids it seemed, and they were 28-26 before the trade.... I have to pretty much assume they would be playing close to .500 and grabbing that 8th seed... and there is no rule that we had to keep the team as is.. we had flexibility, picks, cap space.... there were a lot of other moves we could have made... I keep hearing we were going nowhere with gallo and amare front line.. I still ask? where are we now? where are we going with what we have now?

How is Chuck Hayes supposed to cover for Amare's futility on defense and rebounding when even the DPOY in Tyson can't even do that?

And you bring up a good point that we didn't end up with a great end product, but I think that's more a result of foolishly amnestying Billups over Amare. Let me ask you this... what's a better core, Paul-Melo-Tyson or Paul-Amare-Tyson? Cause your best argument against Melo is that he only plays in Team USA Mode when he respects his teammates. Well then, why not pair him up with his olympic teammate, as we could have done had we amnestied Amare?

And if you think Amare is a better fit with Paul-Tyson than Melo, then why is Amare not even on Team USA, whereas Melo is their 6th man?

[GONYK]

[GALLO WASN't a bad defender actually, but we could have added a number of guys who could defend the center spot.. just think of someone like chuck hayes.. great defender, rebounder and he would not get in amare's way.. I don't think that team was trending down at all.. like most young team, they hit rough patches.. as I said, how many teams in the league giving 3 young players heavy rotation minutes anchored by an allstar player are even sniffing .500 ball? look around the league, this league is filled with good young talented teams that are so far under .500 they are at risk of being relegated to the CBA......

the knicks had amare, felton and a bunch of kids it seemed, and they were 28-26 before the trade.... I have to pretty much assume they would be playing close to .500 and grabbing that 8th seed... and there is no rule that we had to keep the team as is.. we had flexibility, picks, cap space.... there were a lot of other moves we could have made... I keep hearing we were going nowhere with gallo and amare front line.. I still ask? where are we now? where are we going with what we have now?

How is Chuck Hayes supposed to cover for Amare's futility on defense and rebounding when even the DPOY in Tyson can't even do that?

And you bring up a good point that we didn't end up with a great end product, but I think that's more a result of foolishly amnestying Billups over Amare. Let me ask you this... what's a better core, Paul-Melo-Tyson or Paul-Amare-Tyson? Cause your best argument against Melo is that he only plays in Team USA Mode when he respects his teammates. Well then, why not pair him up with his olympic teammate, as we could have done had we amnestied Amare?

And if you think Amare is a better fit with Paul-Tyson than Melo, then why is Amare not even on Team USA, whereas Melo is their 6th man?

You would have amnestied Amare after his 2010-2011 season?

[ORANGEandBLUE]

You would have amnestied Amare after his 2010-2011 season?

Well I don't know if I would have at the time... but right now in hindsight it seems like it would have been a great move, with Melo excelling at the 3 and Amare constantly battling injuries. So how bad could it have been 10 months ago?

[GONYK]

You would have amnestied Amare after his 2010-2011 season?

Well I don't know if I would have at the time... but right now in hindsight it seems like it would have been a great move, with Melo excelling at the 3 and Amare constantly battling injuries. So how bad could it have been 10 months ago?

Coming off the 10-11 campaign, it would have been a terrible decision for the Knicks both on and off the court

[ORANGEandBLUE]

Well I don't know if I would have at the time... but right now in hindsight it seems like it would have been a great move, with Melo excelling at the 3 and Amare constantly battling injuries. So how bad could it have been 10 months ago?

Coming off the 10-11 campaign, it would have been a terrible decision for the Knicks both on and off the court

Howso? We didn't seem to miss Amare that much last season. If anything, having Billups would have avoided the whle TD-starting fiasco.

And going forward? You're going to tell me you would rather have Amare than $18m in cap space?

[albert]

You would have amnestied Amare after his 2010-2011 season?

No way. Amnesty is not a realistic option for your major free agent haul for the Summer of 2010.

The Amare-led Knicks was a .500 ball club and going no where in the big picture. At the time, that was fine - .500 and being on pace for a playoff berth is a lot better than where we were in most of the past decade. And this means something.

But that something is the past and says nothing about our future.

We get the Melo and Tyson deals, and let Lin go - now we're still a .500 ball club that will struggle to get home court in the playoffs with a bunch of 35 year olds. Who wants a .500 ball club? In this league, you need to either be really good or really bad. Treading water and getting playoff ticket sales is fool's gold.

You trade Amare because you want more than this. You need a starting 4 that isn't garbage. You trade Amare after the Melo deal and after the Tyson deal because you need the cap space to build a better team. You need depth, you need defenders, rebounders, perimeter playmakers, and hard-nosed hustle players.

But back to reality at the end of 2011 - the amnesty accomplishes nothing on this front.

[GONYK]

Well I don't know if I would have at the time... but right now in hindsight it seems like it would have been a great move, with Melo excelling at the 3 and Amare constantly battling injuries. So how bad could it have been 10 months ago?

Coming off the 10-11 campaign, it would have been a terrible decision for the Knicks both on and off the court

Howso? We didn't seem to miss Amare that much last season. If anything, having Billups would have avoided the whle TD-starting fiasco.

And going forward? You're going to tell me you would rather have Amare than $18m in cap space?

You're speaking from hindsight

I'm speaking from the perspective of having to make that decision last summer

[ORANGEandBLUE]

You're speaking from hindsight

I'm speaking from the perspective of having to make that decision last summer

I know, but what circumstances have changed?

Amare is less athletic and more injured

Amare and Melo haven't shown to be able to play well together

Spending our whole cap on Melo, Amare, and Tyson has left us without an elite playmaker or shooter in the backcourt.

What part of that was so unforseeable last offseason?

[ORANGEandBLUE]

You would have amnestied Amare after his 2010-2011 season?

No way. Amnesty is not a realistic option for your major free agent haul for the Summer of 2010.
The Amare-led Knicks was a .500 ball club and going no where in the big picture. At the time, that was fine - .500 and being on pace for a playoff berth is a lot better than where we were in most of the past decade. And this means something.

But that something is the past and says nothing about our future.

We get the Melo and Tyson deals, and let Lin go - now we're still a .500 ball club that will struggle to get home court in the playoffs with a bunch of 35 year olds. Who wants a .500 ball club? In this league, you need to either be really good or really bad. Treading water and getting playoff ticket sales is fool's gold.

You trade Amare because you want more than this. You need a starting 4 that isn't garbage. You trade Amare after the Melo deal and after the Tyson deal because you need the cap space to build a better team. You need depth, you need defenders, rebounders, perimeter playmakers, and hard-nosed hustle players.

But back to reality at the end of 2011 - the amnesty accomplishes nothing on this front.

Didn't you just propose trading Amare for glen davis?

[GONYK]

You're speaking from hindsight

I'm speaking from the perspective of having to make that decision last summer

I know, but what circumstances have changed?

Amare is less athletic and more injured

Amare and Melo haven't shown to be able to play well together

Spending our whole cap on Melo, Amare, and Tyson has left us without an elite playmaker or shooter in the backcourt.

What part of that was so unforseeable last offseason?

All of it

I think we fully believed we were trading for CP3, but Chris didn't play ball like Melo did

[ORANGEandBLUE]

I think we fully believed we were trading for CP3, but Chris didn't play ball like Melo did

The situations aren't comparable. We were able to offer Denver a much better package than we could have offered New Orleans. Plus we didn't have a max slot for cp3. If our GM believed we were getting cp3 he's a sap.

[GONYK]

I think we fully believed we were trading for CP3, but Chris didn't play ball like Melo did

The situations aren't comparable. We were able to offer Denver a much better package than we could have offered New Orleans. If our GM believed we were getting cp3 he's a sap.

Not really. What was NOH's alternative if CP3 said NY or bust?

We may not have had the direct capspace, but we did have options to make a better deal than letting him walk for nothing

[ORANGEandBLUE]

I think we fully believed we were trading for CP3, but Chris didn't play ball like Melo did

The situations aren't comparable. We were able to offer Denver a much better package than we could have offered New Orleans. If our GM believed we were getting cp3 he's a sap.

Not really. What was NOH's alternative is CP3 said NY or bust?[/quote]
Play hardball and risk losing the opportunity to acquire shump + crap

[GONYK]

Play hardball and risk losing the opportunity to acquire shump + crap

True, and the truth is, we probably never had a real shot at him. I do think management spent most of the summer under the belief we did though. It wasn't until CP3 passed on us did we use the amnesty to swoop in and take Tyson.

I personally think it was a better play to bet on Amare after the 10-11 season than to bet on capspace to get you a quality PF and a PG the following summer

[Boik14]

Can we get Dirk for Amare? Amare being years younger has more years left as a productive player. Dirk being a much better fit here between Melo and Tyson....

Just an idea albeit one thats both a pipe dream and makes a lot of basketball sense.

But yes, TRADE STAT. Sick of his injuries and BS. More importantly he cant play with Anthony.

[Rasho Brezec]

You would have amnestied Amare after his 2010-2011 season?

Well I don't know if I would have at the time... but right now in hindsight it seems like it would have been a great move, with Melo excelling at the 3 and Amare constantly battling injuries. So how bad could it have been 10 months ago?

Coming off the 10-11 campaign, it would have been a terrible decision for the Knicks both on and off the court

They seem to be fine with making terrible decisions so I don't see the problem here.

[TKF]

[GALLO WASN't a bad defender actually, but we could have added a number of guys who could defend the center spot.. just think of someone like chuck hayes.. great defender, rebounder and he would not get in amare's way.. I don't think that team was trending down at all.. like most young team, they hit rough patches.. as I said, how many teams in the league giving 3 young players heavy rotation minutes anchored by an allstar player are even sniffing .500 ball? look around the league, this league is filled with good young talented teams that are so far under .500 they are at risk of being relegated to the CBA......

the knicks had amare, felton and a bunch of kids it seemed, and they were 28-26 before the trade.... I have to pretty much assume they would be playing close to .500 and grabbing that 8th seed... and there is no rule that we had to keep the team as is.. we had flexibility, picks, cap space.... there were a lot of other moves we could have made... I keep hearing we were going nowhere with gallo and amare front line.. I still ask? where are we now? where are we going with what we have now?

How is Chuck Hayes supposed to cover for Amare's futility on defense and rebounding when even the DPOY in Tyson can't even do that?

And you bring up a good point that we didn't end up with a great end product, but I think that's more a result of foolishly amnestying Billups over Amare. Let me ask you this... what's a better core, Paul-Melo-Tyson or Paul-Amare-Tyson? Cause your best argument against Melo is that he only plays in Team USA Mode when he respects his teammates. Well then, why not pair him up with his olympic teammate, as we could have done had we amnestied Amare?

And if you think Amare is a better fit with Paul-Tyson than Melo, then why is Amare not even on Team USA, whereas Melo is their 6th man?

my choice would be CP3 amare and the team pre trade with gallo, wilson etc.....

why amnesty amare back then? get him a PG, that was the plan I thought... I really don't want 3 max players, unless all of them are truly elite and play different positions of course.... in either scenario the only elite player is CP3... we needed to get the most out of amare....