#32 Highest Peak of All Time (Durant '12 wins)

[Dr Positivity]

vote: Stockton 1988. In head to head matchup (of course they didn't defended each other) he was as good as prime Magic.

I have Stockton coming up soon. Any reason why you'd pick 88? Or does anyone else have a year they feel strongly should be the Stockton season? I like the look of 90 and 91 personally

[lorak]

vote: Stockton 1988. In head to head matchup (of course they didn't defended each other) he was as good as prime Magic.

I have Stockton coming up soon. Any reason why you'd pick 88? Or does anyone else have a year they feel strongly should be the Stockton season? I like the look of 90 and 91 personally

1988 and 1989 were two last years when he wasn't limited by Sloan's offensive system. It's more seen in 1988, because in 1989 Sloan obviously was Jazz coach, but not from the beginning of the season, so his system wasn't fully implemented.

And of course playoffs - in 1988 Stockton outplayed prime Magic Johnson. How many PGs did it even in one playoff series? (And it wasn't some random explosion from Stockton. He played great whole playoffs and regular season - the thing is that vs LAL his greatness was seen in full light)

[ardee]

Hmm I was going to vote King or McHale here but Durant has intrigued me.

Here we have quite possibly the most gifted post-Jordan scorer finally developing a good-to-lethal at times off the dribble game. He's insanely efficient and is just as good a shooter as Dirk, IMO.

It's between King and Durant for me. I'm sidelining McHale for the moment, if he hadn't gotten injured in the '87 Playoffs it would be different of course.

I'd like to see some King vs. Durant debate. Durant had slightly better volume in the regular season, King had much better volume in the postseason. King was more efficient in both. But Durant has now become a very good defensive rebounder and he can certainly defend at a certain level, if his work against Kobe at times was indicative. Could King affect the game in area outside scoring as much as Durant? I'm also certain Durant had better range.

Again, like to hear people's thoughts on this.

[C-izMe]

Quite possibly the best scoring WING since Jordan. He won't top Shaq and as of right now has shown me nothing to say he will top Kobe but I guess it's possible.

[JordansBulls]

Gervin couldn't really even dominate in the 70's when he had opportunity. At least Nique had much better teams to deal with in his career.

Hmm, seems like you're basically biasing your pick toward the '80s coming & going.

You see the parity of the '70s and assume that means nobody was that good, and then blame the guys from the '70s for failing to dominate a bunch of teams that "weren't that good".

Definitely not. I admitted that Rick Barry was getting underrated wayy too much here before he got picked. Some of the guys that went before him I see no case for, but it is what it is.

[JordansBulls]

What qualifies as dominant?

Gervin from 77-80 averaged per 36:

28.7 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.0 apg, 3.5 TOpg, 59.3% TS

He finished top 3 in MVP voting three straight times from 78-80.

Wilkins for his career only finished in the top 3 once.

I agree with the top 3 in MVP voting, but remember who else was there? Certainly not the level of guys Nique had to play against.

[ardee]

What qualifies as dominant?

Gervin from 77-80 averaged per 36:

28.7 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.0 apg, 3.5 TOpg, 59.3% TS

He finished top 3 in MVP voting three straight times from 78-80.

Wilkins for his career only finished in the top 3 once.

I agree with the top 3 in MVP voting, but remember who else was there? Certainly not the level of guys Nique had to play against.

Yeah, Gervin just had peak Jabbar, Walton, Moses, Doc and Thompson

[postertag]

Could someone explain why Stockton is getting mentioned before Isiah?
Dude was one of the fiercest competitors in history and knocked Jordan out of the playoffs 3 straight years. Stockton could never put up numbers like young Zeke, and Zeke's back to back rings dwarf Stockton's zero.
If I recall correctly, popular opinion was that he would've played over Stockton on the Dream Team if it weren't for the fact that everyone hated the guy.

85 Isiah:
reg season: 21.2 ppg, 13.9 apg, 4.5 rpg, 2.3 spg, 52.9% TS, 0.173 WS/48, 46 wins
playoffs: 24.3 ppg, 11.2 apg, 5.2 rpg, 2.1 spg, 56.7% TS, 0.165 WS/48, EC semis loss to Bird's celtics

90 Isiah:
reg season: 18.4 ppg, 9.4 apg, 3.8 rpg, 1.7 spg, 50.1% TS, 0.107 WS/48, 59 wins
playoffs: 20.5 ppg, 8.2 apg, 5.5 rpg, 2.2 spg, 56.0% TS, 0.194 WS/48, NBA championship, including EC finals win over Jordan's bulls

I'd like to hear Stockton's case over Glove and Frazier too...

[Doctor MJ]

vote: Stockton 1988. In head to head matchup (of course they didn't defended each other) he was as good as prime Magic.

I have Stockton coming up soon. Any reason why you'd pick 88? Or does anyone else have a year they feel strongly should be the Stockton season? I like the look of 90 and 91 personally

1988 and 1989 were two last years when he wasn't limited by Sloan's offensive system. It's more seen in 1988, because in 1989 Sloan obviously was Jazz coach, but not from the beginning of the season, so his system wasn't fully implemented.

And of course playoffs - in 1988 Stockton outplayed prime Magic Johnson. How many PGs did it even in one playoff series? (And it wasn't some random explosion from Stockton. He played great whole playoffs and regular season - the thing is that vs LAL his greatness was seen in full light)

See this logic disturbs me. How can Sloan's system "limit" him when it instantly resulted in making the offense better? Yes I understand Stockton had more freedom before Sloan, but if the result of taking away Stockton's freedom is a better offense, then how can you be that impressed by the "free" Stockton relative to the "limited" Stockton who actually ran some world-class offenses?

[Doctor MJ]

Could someone explain why Stockton is getting mentioned before Isiah?
Dude was one of the fiercest competitors in history and knocked Jordan out of the playoffs 3 straight years. Stockton could never put up numbers like young Zeke, and Zeke's back to back rings dwarf Stockton's zero.
If I recall correctly, popular opinion was that he would've played over Stockton on the Dream Team if it weren't for the fact that everyone hated the guy.

85 Isiah:
reg season: 21.2 ppg, 13.9 apg, 4.5 rpg, 2.3 spg, 52.9% TS, 0.173 WS/48, 46 wins
playoffs: 24.3 ppg, 11.2 apg, 5.2 rpg, 2.1 spg, 56.7% TS, 0.165 WS/48, EC semis loss to Bird's celtics

90 Isiah:
reg season: 18.4 ppg, 9.4 apg, 3.8 rpg, 1.7 spg, 50.1% TS, 0.107 WS/48, 59 wins
playoffs: 20.5 ppg, 8.2 apg, 5.5 rpg, 2.2 spg, 56.0% TS, 0.194 WS/48, NBA championship, including EC finals win over Jordan's bulls

I'd like to hear Stockton's case over Glove and Frazier too...

Eh, in general I'm not that impressed with Isiah. Nobody took him seriously as an MVP candidate when he was winning titles for good reason. Of course the same is true for Stockton so I'm not saying that's not a debate, but it won't bother me if Stockton goes first.

Glove will be tougher to beat, and Frazier will be toughest of all those mentioned to beat.

[thebottomline]

How do you guys view Drexler? He wasn't the scorer Durant or Gervin were but he brings comparable or better rebounding and much better playmaking.

[lorak]

1988 and 1989 were two last years when he wasn't limited by Sloan's offensive system. It's more seen in 1988, because in 1989 Sloan obviously was Jazz coach, but not from the beginning of the season, so his system wasn't fully implemented.

And of course playoffs - in 1988 Stockton outplayed prime Magic Johnson. How many PGs did it even in one playoff series? (And it wasn't some random explosion from Stockton. He played great whole playoffs and regular season - the thing is that vs LAL his greatness was seen in full light)

See this logic disturbs me. How can Sloan's system "limit" him when it instantly resulted in making the offense better? Yes I understand Stockton had more freedom before Sloan, but if the result of taking away Stockton's freedom is a better offense, then how can you be that impressed by the "free" Stockton relative to the "limited" Stockton who actually ran some world-class offenses?

Because I know from where these offensive results come from: more thee point shooting, less minutes for Eaton. Stockton was as good and as important player as before. Keep in mind that under Sloan he scored even more than before, so he was even more important for the offense. But Sloan's offensive system worked good in regular season, much worse in the playoffs, when creating (freedom) is more important, because offensive schemes are relatively easily to stop (and every opposing coach knows them).

Anyway, why you guys ignore that Stockton outplayed prime Magic? Suddenly playoff performance doesn't matter anymore because we are talking about Stockton? And it wasn't some random explosion, because he played great whole playoffs and regular season.

[ardee]

I'm going to hold back on voting for this one. Really not sure between Durant and King, don't want to make a vote for the sake of voting.

[PTB Fan]

Vote: '86 Kevin McHale

Next up on my list is Kidd. Still think this guy could be argued a bit higher, but nonetheless, he'll be up there for sure.

[Lightning25]

I'm going to hold back on voting for this one. Really not sure between Durant and King, don't want to make a vote for the sake of voting.

What separates Durant from King is the shooting range/ability and the all-around game. King at his peak was a pretty weak rebounder according to the numbers. Only 5-6 rpg? Come on. Even adjusting his numbers per 36 minutes, his all-around numbers are still weak.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote: 2012 Durant

I'd still probably lean Pierce and maybe Cowens over Durant, but since the former aren't getting traction I'll put my vote in for KD

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: Durant '12

Still sticking with him.

[Doctor MJ]

Because I know from where these offensive results come from: more thee point shooting, less minutes for Eaton. Stockton was as good and as important player as before. Keep in mind that under Sloan he scored even more than before, so he was even more important for the offense. But Sloan's offensive system worked good in regular season, much worse in the playoffs, when creating (freedom) is more important, because offensive schemes are relatively easily to stop (and every opposing coach knows them).

Anyway, why you guys ignore that Stockton outplayed prime Magic? Suddenly playoff performance doesn't matter anymore because we are talking about Stockton? And it wasn't some random explosion, because he played great whole playoffs and regular season.

Their ORtg immediately went up 4 which was a significantly bigger jump than what adding Stockton to the starting line up gave them. Playing Eaton a few less minutes per game is not going to have that huge of an impact simply based on the weakness of his offensive game, and while the improved 3's are nice, it's not like they came because of some new hotshot on that front. They came because Sloan implemented a new system which led to more 3 shot and shot more accurately.

I get the argument that Sloan didn't need to take the control away from Stockton in order to achieve this, but I don't think anyone should consider it a simple thing to assume that Sloan simultaneously made the team leap forward and made Stockton play worse.

Outplayed Magic? Well, I do think the fact that Stockton went off pre-Sloan in ways he didn't with Sloan is very relevant to conversation, so I'm with you there. It is however a very small sample size without any massive spike in team success, so I'm cautious.

[drza]

I'll vote 1987 Mchale again in a squeaker over Durant, for the same reasons as last thread.

[Doctor MJ]

Durant '12 takes it.