Preseason Game 6: Knicks vs. Nets - 7:30pm on MSG

[MrDollarBills]

Actually, I've been thinking.

The NBA is already evolving towards a game where you'll have:

Guard
Guard
Guard/Forward
Forward
Forward

Boston and Miami are already ahead of the game, and they are using line ups that reflect this. Look at their line ups. I will wager that they will be in the top 6 overall.

You may be right.

It may be time for us to also get with it.

Shame that we couldn't land that #1 pick this year.

[jerseyjac]

IDK, we'll see.

But I also know you and others and even myself need to chill til it's a few weeks into the season.

It's only preseason!

Again, can we all agree this isn't a real contender, or really any contender at all?

I think for the most part there are two main type of fanatics:
1) People who think that (in spite of the odds), their team will overachieve.
2) People who think that (in spite of the probability), their team will underachieve.

Personally, I fall into category number 2. That's because I know that as a fan, I won't be satisfied until I see my team win a championship. And in order to win a championship, you need to have a championship team.

For me, if I don't see a championship team (and therefore no true shot at a title), it's very easy for me to pick apart all of the reasons why the team falls short.

There are other fans whose standard of criticism changes relative to the expected level of play. So with our team, almost everyone sees us as a 2nd round out and therefore their standard of criticism will match that of an expected 2nd round out team, meaning that we'll praise/be content with the many things that are good with our team and we'll shrug off the one glaring hole (or several small issues that aggregate into a large overall hole) which keeps us back from being contenders.

So for me, I'll probably never shut up about Lopez, no matter if it's pre-, regular, or postseason, cuz I want perfection. And I think while his play will allow us to be good, it won't be good enough to make us contenders.

Other people aren't really bothered with him that much cuz we're not expected to win a championship so there's no need to exasperate ourselves over something that we can't control and probably won't happen. So just enjoy what you got.

I think the pessimist in me just gets upset in preseason cuz I look at it and know that I'm going to be upset this season cuz we're not going to win and that just fuels the present criticism.

A lot of other people on here are like:

What about fans who think this team will do exactly what its supposed to do...make the playoffs (neither overachieving nor underachieving)...

[vincecarter4pres]

Eh....if that's the alternatives you guys are suggesting, I'd rather keep Brook and hope that King can make moves to get the right mix in here.

Saying that we'd be okay with pick and pop players like Kris(who hasn't shown he's a pick and pop guy, even though that I think he has a decent J from the FT line) and Dray who needs to prove himself doesn't really sell me on trading Brook for someone like Haywood. We'll still get our asses kicked

We'll be okay if we swapped Lopez for a non-offense center. Especially for one season, it shouldn't hurt if we had to use the OKC model of jumpshooting with no inside scoring.

Deron, Johnson and Wallace can all post up, so it wouldn't be too bad.

Wait you meant to swap Brook for Brendan Haywood?!

I thought you meant Brooks and filler and that you made that obvious with the follow up post?

[NyCeEvO]

What about fans who think this team will do exactly what its supposed to do...make the playoffs (neither overachieving nor underachieving)...

Well, we all expect the Nets to make the playoffs and I'm pretty sure that most of us figure to be a top 5 seed in the EC by the end of the year.

So if we lose in the first round as a top 5 seed that's underachieving and if we go in as a 6-8 seed, that's still underachieving, cuz we're supposed to be better than that.

[vincecarter4pres]

What about fans who think this team will do exactly what its supposed to do...make the playoffs (neither overachieving nor underachieving)...

Well, we all expect the Nets to make the playoffs and I'm pretty sure that most of us figure to be a top 5 seed in the EC by the end of the year.

So if we lose in the first round as a top 5 seed that's underachieving and if we go in as a 6-8 seed, that's still underachieving, cuz we're supposed to be better than that.

Momma there's goes that man.

[vincecarter4pres]

Actually, I've been thinking.

The NBA is already evolving towards a game where you'll have:

Guard
Guard
Guard/Forward
Forward
Forward

I wouldn't really agree with this. Truthfully center is much stronger then it's made out to be. Shooting guard is easily the thinnest position in the league, probably followed by small forward.

This isn't the 80's or 90's with 5 or 6 big time centers and 3 or 4 of those being dominant guys, but it's still very strong.

Boston and Miami are already ahead of the game, and they are using line ups that reflect this. Look at their line ups. I will wager that they will be in the top 6 overall.

At this point in his career, Garnett is very much a legit 5 man. Has had that night in night out ability for a few years really. I don't see how Boston is following that model.

Miami is kind of the outlier and we'll see how they do this year.

The Lakers are still a contender and still a team with ridiculous Twin Towers now.

You may be right.

It may be time for us to also get with it.

Shame that we couldn't land that #1 pick this year.

That #1 pick would have become Dwight Howard, a dominant center.

Anthony Davis is also quite likely to eventually become, a dominant center.

Center is still very much deep and talented, at least when all the top guys are healthy.

There is just a fascination with labeling it as a dying concept.

You don't need a dominant post scorer anymore though, just a reliable post option on offense from the 4 or 5 and then a very very good defensive anchor big man.

Miami again is the outlier, who also happen to have the lock #1 overall player in the league, a lock top 4 player in the league playing next to him and a lock top 20 player in Bosh, who before he became a lower stat 3rd option was considered by many to be the best 4 man in the game and a top 10 player. Some perception is needed, perception is often key. Miami doesn't even fit well together, their talent is just so overwhelming they'll always be amongst the top 3 to 4 favorites in the league and the #1 favorite coming off any season they won the whole thing.

Context please haha.

[MrDollarBills]

I think you may have misunderstood me: the game is going away from the big plodding center and is going with/evolving towards using guys who would more so be athletic 4 men as "centers".

Look at how Brook's back is kicked in by Nets fans and pundits because he can't keep up with the speed of the game, as much as I like Brook and will defend him if people want to blame him solely for the Net's defensive woes...he's the last of a dying breed, and it's showing. He can't keep up. The analysis on here has been spot on the more I step back and look at it. The guy is physically unable to do what the Nets desperately need from him since our 4's are awful defensive players.

Guys like Garnett and Bosh are now centers, what will we do when we play those teams and they blow by Lopez easily?

Someone like Anthony Davis will probably end up as center(I have no doubts that when we play them, he will run circles around poor Brook ). Dwight Howard, who for all intents and purposes is more so like a traditional old school 4 man, is a center now. The PF position is now becoming more of a finesse/stretch the floor type position, look at how Lebron and Carmelo play when they are put into the 4 slot, they tear people up. The Knicks would be wise to move him to the four in Stoudemire's absence.

I think you'll see what I mean as these games are played.

[Paradise]

Gotta love this team

[iceman3699]

^^ lol, JJ looking like he having too much fun. That figure 4 hurts..

[jerseyjac]

What about fans who think this team will do exactly what its supposed to do...make the playoffs (neither overachieving nor underachieving)...

Well, we all expect the Nets to make the playoffs and I'm pretty sure that most of us figure to be a top 5 seed in the EC by the end of the year.

So if we lose in the first round as a top 5 seed that's underachieving and if we go in as a 6-8 seed, that's still underachieving, cuz we're supposed to be better than that.

Momma there's goes that man.

Well I'm gonna have to agree w/ Mr Jackson, you're better than that...

We can all expect and figure a lot of things...fact is, this team is easy top 8 in the EC as far as a legitimate projection...there is still 7 teams that will not make the EC playoffs...

I don't care where you have them...3, 4, 5 or 8, whatever...those projections are for fans who read websites who like to vote in polls and believe their team is as good as the next. Making the playoffs should be our goal considering our talent, but when talking about a brand new roster there is so much which is unknown...Do you think this Nets team during preseason or any time during the regular season will say, we have to grab at least 3-5 seed?

Over a course of a 82 game schedule there are numerous variables including intangibles which can drop you off that map in matter of weeks...

Maybe when things get closer this Nets team can look at how the playoff picture is playing out and say, if we win X amount of games, we are locked for this seed...fine, I do not doubt that...

For a moment, stop thinking like a fan...

Not making the playoffs would be underachieving, making the playoffs is this teams ultimate goal no matter what seed we go in as and winning a playoff series is definitely overachieving...anything beyond that is some nice gravy...yeh would they be disappointed they ended up with 6 rather than a three, maybe...but if we're a 6 and beat a 3, no one will care what seed we were...

Unless we start dominating some top echelon NBA teams very early, please do not make like any playoff seed is underachieving...so far we only hope to be better than a bunch of EC teams...

I'm sure someone could list the number of teams who won 45-50 games during the regular season, but lost in the first round of the playoffs...sounds like the Memphis Grizzlies and don't quote me on numbers that's not what matters...

We can make the playoffs without playing "playoff type basketball"...one place I have to agree with Avery is getting this team to play playoff type basketball...we have no chance of winning any series in the playoffs if we don't get our game there...again, we obviously all know with a new team there is a lot of learning and gel-ing that goes on before you start to even play good basketball...playoff basketball is even further down that road, somewhere near the cross road of great basketball and we got this...

There is always a percentage of fans who assume too much when they start making preseason predictions and rankings, developing this predetermine vision of their team (which usually carries throughout the season)...think average Knick fan..

Try to conceptualize how this Nets team would be thinking as far as goals, then you get closer to the reality of what the Nets hope to achieve...At this juncture, playoff seed predictions is more suitable for cooler talk and friendly wagers...

[NyCeEvO]

I agree with you to a large extent but we already know what the Nets expect to achieve. The players and coaches have been saying it throughout the summer and camp:

Avery, JJ, and D-Will already said that one goal is not to any games back-to-back for the entire season.
JJ and Lopez have repeatedly said that they believe they have a legit shot at winning now.
D-Will and JJ said that they definitely expect to win 50 games (if healthy, of course).
Avery was just interviewed and he said that he wants a top 10 defensive team and to have HCA at least in the first round.

These aren't just rumors. They all have gone on record saying this stuff to news outlets who are reporting it to us.

You don't spend $330 mil on a team and then just say making the playoffs is the goal. Not even our players are saying that. They put the pressure on themselves before the season started and throughout training camp in touting about where they expect to be.

It took the Heat 17 regular season games to get it together and even though we don't have as much talent as they did, we have a better natural fit than they did when they came together.

I didn't just pull the HCA or winning a series expectation out of nowhere. Don't shoot the messenger. You can check for yourself and see where it's coming from.

[NyCeEvO]

Here are some interviews after yesterday's practice. Good stuff: http://www.nba.com/nets/video/playlist/ ... ews-oct-28

[jerseyjac]

I agree with you to a large extent but we already know what the Nets expect to achieve. The players and coaches have been saying it throughout the summer and camp:

Avery, JJ, and D-Will already said that one goal is not to any games back-to-back for the entire season.
JJ and Lopez have repeatedly said that they believe they have a legit shot at winning now.
D-Will and JJ said that they definitely expect to win 50 games (if healthy, of course).
Avery was just interviewed and he said that he wants a top 10 defensive team and to have HCA at least in the first round.

These aren't just rumors. They all have gone on record saying this stuff to news outlets who are reporting it to us.

You don't spend $330 mil on a team and then just say making the playoffs is the goal. Not even our players are saying that. They put the pressure on themselves before the season started and throughout training camp in touting about where they expect to be.

It took the Heat 17 regular season games to get it together and even though we don't have as much talent as they did, we have a better natural fit than they did when they came together.

I didn't just pull the HCA or winning a series expectation out of nowhere. Don't shoot the messenger. You can check for yourself and see where it's coming from.

I hear you man...even though I quoted you, it was not directed at you personally because you are probably one of the more level headed fans we have on this forum...However, I was quoting you to make an example of how the common fan (myself included) can get caught up in the hype of a big payroll team...a team with a lot of names which looks damn good on paper...

We all realize this team has some decent experience including some allstar type players where their overall confidence should be conveyed to the press in a manner of "we want to do this", "we feel we are this type of team"...but we all know, even now after seeing preseason, there is a lot of work they have to get done...all that preseason talk is how its supposed go and it should go when expressing what kind of team you have...it is definitely obvious they have showed a hunger when voicing the things they want to accomplish...

At this point, talk is cheap...throw predictions, rankings and who we think we are out the window...(last week I got my SI in the mail, they have the Nets ranked 4th behind the Knicks, do I feel we are better than the Knicks? Hell yeh!)

Now its time to show we are better than these teams, that we are a playoff team and hopefully one which will prove during the regular season its favored to make the final four of the Eastern Confernece...

I'm not knocking any fan's expectation, but I am here to keep this fan base in check, so we don't get ahead of ourselves...new team, new arena and new city...nothing is guaranteed and this team has boat load to prove before they actually become a playoff team...

On that note, I have to admit its really nice to feel confident prior to the season ...we haven't felt that since 2006...later that season we were able beat a Raptors team in a hard fought 1st round playoff series (some of you guys will remember the sig bets we made with some Raptor forum fans) The last two memorable and significant victories this franchise has had came against the Cavs and Lebron, taking two games from them, losing 4-2...

I'm ready to get back to that level of basketball, games that really matter...but lets stay grounded...

[vincecarter4pres]

I disagree entirely here Jac. Anything under the 5 seed if we're mainly healthy is a major disappointment.

Not winning a playoff series is an enormous disappointment.

The payroll of this team is absurd and the star power is high. The expectations and claims and loud mouth bravado of people within the organization has set the table. Anything under a 5 seed as long as healthy is pure crap with a top 10 player and a legitimate starter to All Star at every other starting position and a decent bench.

If this team stumbles and doesn't click they should still win around 45 to 48 games just off talent.

Just making the playoffs and being happy with it and claiming it as success, that's thinking like a fan.



NyCe actually just said a lot of what I did, I replied before reading his post.



I think I'm very grounded, I know this team isn't a juggernaut or contender.


This would be like a car company spending a billion dollars to design and develop a world beating sports car then after it was all said and done they put out a beautiful looking automobile they sell for $170,000 yet it can only compete with the Mini Cooper S and the Civic Si and gets dusted by much more pedestrian cars like a Porsche Boxster even though it's supposed to be competing with 911's and Ferrari 458's.

Like sure, it's not supposed to be a Bugatti Veryon fastest car in the world dominator, but it's certainly supposed to still keep pace with other mid-level supercars.

[jerseyjac]

I disagree entirely here Jac. Anything under the 5 seed if we're mainly healthy is a major disappointment.

Not winning a playoff series is an enormous disappointment.

The payroll of this team is absurd and the star power is high. The expectations and claims and loud mouth bravado of people within the organization has set the table. Anything under a 5 seed as long as healthy is pure crap with a top 10 player and a legitimate starter to All Star at every other starting position and a decent bench.

If this team stumbles and doesn't click they should still win around 45 to 48 games just off talent.

Just making the playoffs and being happy with it and claiming it as success, that's thinking like a fan.



NyCe actually just said a lot of what I did, I replied before reading his post.



I think I'm very grounded, I know this team isn't a juggernaut or contender.


This would be like a car company spending a billion dollars to design and develop a world beating sports car then after it was all said and done they put out a beautiful looking automobile they sell for $170,000 yet it can only compete with the Mini Cooper S and the Civic Si and gets dusted by much more pedestrian cars like a Porsche Boxster even though it's supposed to be competing with 911's and Ferrari 458's.

Like sure, it's not supposed to be a Bugatti Veryon fastest car in the world dominator, but it's certainly supposed to still keep pace with other mid-level supercars.

Again, my initial statement was thrown out there for a reason and a purpose...you are pretty level headed as well, understand the ins and outs of this team as well their strengths and limitations...you know as well as I do how fans can get caught up in the hype...all it takes is Vince Carter to come to the Nets and, there you have it (hype)...but I think I made it clear this team has a good chance of making something happen when it counts...

However, determining what will disappoint you as a fan is a completely different topic than predicting what a team' will or will not achieve and whether that is considered under or over-achievement ...but I don't want to get into a debate over classification or a play on words, etc...you can obviously say one directly relates with the other...I'm fine with that...

Now where did I say it would be a success or I would be satisfied if we just made the playoffs???

Lets not confuse my general statements in that post as what I personally demand as a fan from this team...I think you know me a little better than that...(see my previous post which you kind of side stepped)

Read my line about a 45-50 win team...I don't think it should be too difficult, but then the playoffs is another game all together...

(I'm not going to directly reply to your car analogy for many reasons...but)
Just because significant money is invested on manufacturing a product doesn't certify it will compete with what it was built for...