Breaking: Harden traded from OKC to HOU

[miller31time]

Knowing what we know now, I feel like we could have traded Beal and maybe Ves or Booker, plus a future 1st for Harden -- something many of us were clamoring for on this board on draft day.

That would be too much to give up for Harden.

I feel like, if anything, it wouldn't be enough. We tend to overvalue our players. In this case, while I like Beal and feel he was the best player to draft at 3, he's by no means a sure thing. And even if he pans out to be a good player, there's no guarantee he'll be a superstar (odds are that he'll never be one).

Then there's Vesely who is, thus far, a bust. He could be a serviceable role player down the line but players like him should NEVER be the "make it or break it" part of a trade for a star/superstar player.

Then there's the future 1st. Well, with Harden, we're suddenly not horrible. The 1st wouldn't be nearly as valuable.

If you look at it with blue goggles, we're trading a great young player on a great contract (Beal) and a top-notch, young bigman who will be the staple in any rotation, along with a valuable draft pick. Without those same glasses on, we're trading a potentially good young guard, bust tweener big and low draft pick.

[DCZards]

^^^^^^^And you'd be getting a very good SG (Harden) but not a superstar, who would be looking for max money. And you'd be putting him next to a PG (Wall) who does his best work with the ball in his hands...just like he does.

[DCZards]

Yup, this is how a good GM rebuilds. Houston is on its way to being a team that can contend for a championship — unlike us. We have "veteran leadership" and a "businesslike locker room". How the difference between someone like Grunfield and a basketball executive like Morey isn't obvious to Ted Leonsis I'll never understand.

I have my doubts about Houston being on its way to contending for a championship. It's a good trade for the Rockets, especially after a shaky offseason. But we're in a period where you have to have at least two superstars/all-stars to compete for a ring. Houston has a very, very good SG in Harden but a bunch of average talent (Lin,Asik) and unproven youngsters after that.

I think Harden will someday regret not re-signing with OKC...a team that is truly capable of contending for a championship.

[popper]

Yup, this is how a good GM rebuilds. Houston is on its way to being a team that can contend for a championship — unlike us. We have "veteran leadership" and a "businesslike locker room". How the difference between someone like Grunfield and a basketball executive like Morey isn't obvious to Ted Leonsis I'll never understand.

I have my doubts about Houston being on its way to contending for a championship. It's a good trade for the Rockets, especially after a shaky offseason. But we're in a period where you have to have at least two superstars/all-stars to compete for a ring. Houston has a very, very good SG in Harden but a bunch of average talent (Lin,Asik) and unproven youngsters after that.

I think Harden will someday regret not re-signing with OKC...a team that is truly capable of contending for a championship.

Agree completely. Harden just made a big mistake for what, in the grand scheme of things, is chump change.

[payitforward]

Yup, this is how a good GM rebuilds. Houston is on its way to being a team that can contend for a championship — unlike us. We have "veteran leadership" and a "businesslike locker room". How the difference between someone like Grunfield and a basketball executive like Morey isn't obvious to Ted Leonsis I'll never understand.

I have my doubts about Houston being on its way to contending for a championship. It's a good trade for the Rockets, especially after a shaky offseason. But we're in a period where you have to have at least two superstars/all-stars to compete for a ring. Houston has a very, very good SG in Harden but a bunch of average talent (Lin,Asik) and unproven youngsters after that.

I think Harden will someday regret not re-signing with OKC...a team that is truly capable of contending for a championship.

"Contending for a championship" -- maybe that's not a good way for me to put what I mean, given that you make a good point that there is this inflection point of needing a second top-tier player to win one. I guess if you don't have what it takes to win one, how can you be contending for one?

What I mean is a team that is both improving rapidly and has no made no limiting choices, hasn't lowered its sights in order to become "respectable." I'm quite comfortable putting Houston in that bucket. And, imo, if you are in that one, then why are you not in a place where you can add that second guy? Strictly speaking, until you do, you're not actually contending, but you're on the right path.

Ok, maybe that's what I want to mean by saying "on its way."

[hands11]

Yup, this is how a good GM rebuilds. Houston is on its way to being a team that can contend for a championship — unlike us. We have "veteran leadership" and a "businesslike locker room". How the difference between someone like Grunfield and a basketball executive like Morey isn't obvious to Ted Leonsis I'll never understand.

I have my doubts about Houston being on its way to contending for a championship. It's a good trade for the Rockets, especially after a shaky offseason. But we're in a period where you have to have at least two superstars/all-stars to compete for a ring. Houston has a very, very good SG in Harden but a bunch of average talent (Lin,Asik) and unproven youngsters after that.

I think Harden will someday regret not re-signing with OKC...a team that is truly capable of contending for a championship.

Agreed. Good move by OKC given he wanted to go. They just keep loading up. Perry Jones was a great take by them. Harden should have taken less and stayed.

[payitforward]

An offer that would have averaged $13.5 mil per year was more than fair for Harden. Presti made the right decision.
With Perry Jones, Lamb, Martin, OKC should have more ways to win.

For Houston, are they really going to pay max money for a shooting guard who isn't a 1st option?

I can't wait to see whether the people who are wrong about this remember that they were wrong.

I love the notion that Perry Jones (don't even know if he'll make it in the league at all, certainly don't know whether he's going to be good enough to start -- even on a bad team, let alone make a difference on a good team), Lamb (ditto), and Martin (who I doubt will even be on the team next year) give them "more ways to win" than James Harden.

The idea that this was about a million or so dollars -- whatever is said in the media -- is kind of silly. Before the trade, OKC was lined up to pay over $72m in salaries next year (assuming they picked up their rookie options) -- without considering Harden. If they had signed him for e.g. $12-13m/year they are knocking on the door of the Lakers and Nets' salary levels -- except they aren't in LA and they don't have a Russian plutocrat owner. Aside from the $85m itself, the penalties under the new CBA would have made it impossible for them, just impossible.

There was no choice but to dump one of their top-salaried players. As I wrote previously, I'm sure they were trying their hardest to trade Westbrook. When they couldn't do it, Harden had to go. Daryl Morey had the skills to take advantage of the situation.

Harden will be extremely happy in Houston. As to "first option," why oh why does everyone equate excellence with scoring a lot of points? Harden played 31+ minutes a game last year and was one of the top handful of 2 guards in the league. He just turned 23.

[montestewart]

OKC isn't capable of contending for a championship. They are contending for a championship. The Rockets have now finally put themselves in position to be contending, but they better act fast before the Asik/Lin balloon payments are due. They need to add another piece, but they have cap space and some trading pieces that could get them there.

The new CBA ostensibly was designed (or so it seemed) to protect smaller market teams from the popularity and buying power of the megateams. Based on this trade, it looks like maybe the teams that will be hit hardest are the smaller market teams that, through skiil in drafting and trading, ended up with the best roster but couldn't afford to keep them.

[MJG]

Harden just finished his third season and is already one of the top 3-4 players at his position. That means his market value is the max. I don't understand why people are holding it against him that he didn't agree to take less.

[miller31time]

^^^^^^^And you'd be getting a very good SG (Harden) but not a superstar, who would be looking for max money. And you'd be putting him next to a PG (Wall) who does his best work with the ball in his hands...just like he does.

We'd be getting a player that's, in the limited time he's been in the league, is already one of the top players in his position. He's already very good and certainly can get to the "great" status.

The contract doesn't bother me at all since we already ruined the ability to use our capspace.

Regarding not working with Wall, Harden worked just fine with Westbrook, a ball-dominant guard, and Durant - the league's leading scorer. He'd be fine here. God forbid we obtain a player who is semi-competent on offense.

[willbcocks]

As for what the Wizards could have offered, imagine that we did not make the Okafor trade (or the Nene trade.

We offer Beal, crawford if they want him, and cap space for Perkins and Harden. I'd even throw in a second round pick. If necessary (but I don't think it would be), I'd add a heavily protected future first.

In my opinion, that's a better deal for OKC than what Houston offered. For us, we get a great player who takes some of the pressure off of Wall. And, because i know it's important for Ted and Ernie, we even get our underwhelming veteran big man (who is probably cheaper than Okafor). I like Beal, but this would have been a much better use of our resources than the trade we made.

I largely agreed with all of EG's moves since the blowup after Arenas until the Nene trade, so I'll pretend I was the GM from right before the Nene trade. This is the team we likely would have had were I the GM (plus whatever I could have received for McGee in the way of picks):

PG: Wall/mack
SG: Harden/Webster
SF: Webster/Singleton/Crowder
PF: Vesely/Booker/Singleton/Shard's Contract
C: Seraphin/Perkins

I don't think we would be a playoff team, but I would be much more confident with the team moving forward.

[MikeTheKid]

Can we just tank the next 2 years so we could be in line for Shabazz, Noel or Cody Zeller in 2012 and Wiggins, Jabari Parker or Andrew Harrison in 2013??? I would love for what happened to OKC happen to us right about now. We have Wall and Beal, now 2 more of them and we'll be set even though I have a feeling the Lakers will end up with Shabazz or Wiggins to succeed Kobe when he retires.

[willbcocks]

Can we just tank the next 2 years so we could be in line for Shabazz, Noel or Cody Zeller in 2012 and Wiggins, Jabari Parker or Andrew Harrison in 2013??? I would love for what happened to OKC happen to us right about now. We have Wall and Beal, now 2 more of them and we'll be set even though I have a feeling the Lakers will end up with Shabazz or Wiggins to succeed Kobe when he retires.

We don't need talented players to turn around our mess; we need veteran leadership to show the kids how to win now. Or so EG's argument goes.

I would have loved one more year of playing the youngsters and getting a high pick. Two would have been pushing it, but if Wall doesn't develop, we would have been better off moving him and tanking in 2014 with Beal, 2013 and 2014 lottery picks as our building blocks.

[closg00]

The deal that occurred Saturday night was not Thunder general manager Sam Presti’s master plan all along. He maintained all offseason that their intention was to extend Harden, as they did starting power forward Serge Ibaka earlier in the summer. Their offer of $55 million over four years clearly indicates that they valued Harden and wanted to keep him. While it is short of the max, sources with knowledge of the negotiations say there were incentives that, if reached, would have basically made him a max player.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/the-truth-beh ... den-trade/

Nice read on the trade.

[queridiculo]

I'm a bit curious about where Ernie was when this trade went down. Then again, it's not like Washington was really in a position to really do anything since they wouldn't have had the cap flexibility to sign him to an extension.

Another example for how Grunfeld lacks the vision to move this franchise forward.

[payitforward]

The deal that occurred Saturday night was not Thunder general manager Sam Presti’s master plan all along. He maintained all offseason that their intention was to extend Harden, as they did starting power forward Serge Ibaka earlier in the summer. Their offer of $55 million over four years clearly indicates that they valued Harden and wanted to keep him. While it is short of the max, sources with knowledge of the negotiations say there were incentives that, if reached, would have basically made him a max player.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/the-truth-beh ... den-trade/

Nice read on the trade.

Sigh....

How do you get max value in a trade if you don't say that you "valued Harden and wanted to keep him."

Please explain to me how a franchise in OKC was going to afford an $85m roster -- not to mention the extraordinary penalties associated with it under the new CBA.

edit: $85m of which almost $70m would go to 5 players -- next year!

[nate33]

I largely agreed with all of EG's moves since the blowup after Arenas until the Nene trade, so I'll pretend I was the GM from right before the Nene trade. This is the team we likely would have had were I the GM (plus whatever I could have received for McGee in the way of picks):

PG: Wall/mack
SG: Harden/Webster
SF: Webster/Singleton/Crowder
PF: Vesely/Booker/Singleton/Shard's Contract
C: Seraphin/Perkins

I don't think we would be a playoff team, but I would be much more confident with the team moving forward.

We could have made the Nene trade and still had the cap room to acquire Harden. If we did so, our team would look like this:

PG: Wall/Mack/Machado
SG: Harden/Webster
SF: Webster/Crowder/Singleton
PF: Booker/Vesely
C: Nene/Perkins/Seraphin

We follow up by looking to flip Perkins for a similarly competent veteran PF - maybe Udonis Haslem?

[queridiculo]

@payitforward OKC is selling out preseason games, Thunder fans are absolutely nuts for their team and I doubt that's going to change anytime soon. It's a great basketball town and as long as they remain competitive their fans are going to continue to sell out that arena.

Combined with the natural resources in that region and a strong ownership group I don't see how they couldn't afford to spend that much on their roster.

OKC had to make a tough decision and from where I'm sitting they made the best out of it.

Lamb and Perry Jones are going to be terrors of the bench and Kevin Martin is going to have a ton of room to operate.

[payitforward]

@payitforward OKC is selling out preseason games, Thunder fans are absolutely nuts for their team and I doubt that's going to change anytime soon. It's a great basketball town and as long as they remain competitive their fans are going to continue to sell out that arena.

Combined with the natural resources in that region and a strong ownership group I don't see how they couldn't afford to spend that much on their roster.

OKC had to make a tough decision and from where I'm sitting they made the best out of it.

Lamb and Perry Jones are going to be terrors of the bench and Kevin Martin is going to have a ton of room to operate.

I know it's a great basketball town. And I know the Thunder is their only pro sports franchise. No, that doesn't mean they can afford the $85m roster (rising in the succeeding years, btw) and the penalties.

"Lamb and Perry are going to be terrors..." is something you know how, exactly? You saw it in your crystal ball? Maybe they'll be good. Maybe one of them will be good. Maybe neither will be good. Etc. That's what we know about them. What we know about Harden is that he is one of the top handful of NBA 2s at age 23.

"Martin is going to have a ton of room to operate", whatever that means, is less important than that he has an expiring salary and will either be gone next year or signed for a lot less than he makes now.

In other words, this trade makes it possible for OKC to control its salary structure, and they got some picks too. That gives them more ways to control their salary structure -- and continue to grow. So, it's a good trade for OKC -- as I said to begin with. Presti is a brilliant GM, no question.

But it's a great trade for Houston. They are so young that they don't need the extra picks they gave. The fodder they got in the deal will be gotten rid of this year. The overall effect is that they traded Martin for Harden. How's that anything but great for them?

[DCZards]

Here's what Harden had to say about the trade:

"It happened so fast, it happened very fast. But this is the position I'm in now. Just have to make the best of it. I'm with Houston now. I just have to come in here and play hard and win games."

Sounds to me like the Rockets have a backcourt who would rather be playing elsewhere. Lin has admitted he wanted to stay in NY, and it doesn't take much reading between the lines to recognize that Harden was both surprised and disappointed by the trade to Houston.