Breaking: Harden traded from OKC to HOU

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Can we just tank the next 2 years so we could be in line for Shabazz, Noel or Cody Zeller in 2012 and Wiggins, Jabari Parker or Andrew Harrison in 2013??? I would love for what happened to OKC happen to us right about now. We have Wall and Beal, now 2 more of them and we'll be set even though I have a feeling the Lakers will end up with Shabazz or Wiggins to succeed Kobe when he retires.

We don't need talented players to turn around our mess; we need veteran leadership to show the kids how to win now. Or so EG's argument goes.

I would have loved one more year of playing the youngsters and getting a high pick. Two would have been pushing it, but if Wall doesn't develop, we would have been better off moving him and tanking in 2014 with Beal, 2013 and 2014 lottery picks as our building blocks.

willb, on that we agree.

They won the last six games last season. Just bring back the same crew of James Singleton, Cartier Martin as a sub who will actually play some, even Morris Almond; and play the season out having Nene as the veteran leader of Seraphin and Vesely. Those guys, with Brian Cook, had great chemistry and they played hard for Wittman. I would have preferred seeing them to the current roster, with the exception of Martell Webster.

The good news is they might suck any way and still get the high pick playing over-priced veterans.

[DCZards]

"Lamb and Perry are going to be terrors..." is something you know how, exactly? You saw it in your crystal ball? Maybe they'll be good. Maybe one of them will be good. Maybe neither will be good. Etc. That's what we know about them. What we know about Harden is that he is one of the top handful of NBA 2s at age 23.

Payit, I agree that Lamb and Perry haven't proven anything. But this is a message board and 90% of it is people's opinions. For example, you think Landry Fields is a "terrific" player, something he has yet to prove. But you're entitled to your opnion.

I happen to also believe that J. Lamb and Perry Jones, especially Jones, are going to be outstanding NBA players, and that K. Martin will, at a minumum, fill the off-the-bench scoring void left by the trade of Harden.

[queridiculo]

@payitforward

Was it really necessary to chop two words of my quote to make your point?

[montestewart]

Here's what Harden had to say about the trade:

"It happened so fast, it happened very fast. But this is the position I'm in now. Just have to make the best of it. I'm with Houston now. I just have to come in here and play hard and win games."

Sounds to me like the Rockets have a backcourt who would rather be playing elsewhere. Lin has admitted he wanted to stay in NY, and it doesn't take much reading between the lines to recognize that Harden was both surprised and disappointed by the trade to Houston.

They were both happy where they were, so why would they want to leave? Doesn't mean they won't eventually be happy with Houston. I think of the players that ended up in Detroit (especially Ben Wallace and Richard Hamilton) that probably weren't happy about the transactions, but ended up happy contenders and champions. Ray Allen seemed to imply a sadness about he and Rashard Lewis being broken up just as Durant was arriving.

If Houston continues making contender building moves and Harden and Lin are key players in that success, I'll bet they will be happy.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Harden will be a max-contract player, averaging 22-25 points a game along with a lot of assists and rebounds. He is going to appear in a bunch of all star games, just like Joe Johnson after Phoenix.

Houston is absolutely loaded with talent. I predict they will make the playoffs this season. Lin and Harden are going to be very happy.


EDITED TO ADD: Lin won the state championship in Div II for California schools, as the best player on a 32-1 team. He outplayed great players while at Harvard. He has outplayed Wall head-to-head. James Harden won two CA state championships at Artesia HS. The team was 33-1 and 33-2 with him as the best player. He has already performed well in three playoff seasons as an NBA player. Harden is 23 and Lin 24. Birthdays are three days apart, August 26 and August 23. No doubt in my mind at all they are going to play very well together. Harden won't have to be the man and neither will Lin. Terrence Jones comes after playing on two Final Four teams and winning an NCAA title with Kentucky. Motiejunas is a seven-foot PF/C who I see as weaker, less-athletic Dirk Nowitzki. He is highly skilled and has three-point range. Now he won't have to score inside at all. Finally, they have a defensive anchor at C who is greatly underrated. Asik is capable of leading the league in rebounds. Asik is a goon who will give any player a very hard foul. He is a very good defensive player. Patterson is a PF with a pure shot and SF range. Marchado could lead the league in assists if not for Lin. Other than their youth, I love the Rockets roster.

[Dat2U]

The key to the trade is that Toronto pick. If it's a high lottery pick then pendulum swings over to OKC IMO. If it's a lottery lottery or middle 1st rounder, then OKC would have a traded the best young SG in the league for a likely one year rental in KMart (whose game has seemed to have plateaued or even declined a bit) and 2nd tier prospects. Lamb may be okay, but I don't think no one is predicting stardom for the kid but he may a solid role player in time.

Harden was perfect for OKC in his 6th man role. As the 3rd option behind Durant & Westbrook his efficiency was off the charts. But he also did a lot of his damage being guarded by reserves. One of the reasons I had questions about him before the draft was his ability to handle a 1st option role which he'll need to carry in Houston. I suspect he'll struggle as the lead option as teams are able to put the clamp down (w/o two other superstars around him) and force him into more of a passive role.

This may turn out to be a bad trade for both teams. Houston still needs one more star to even get into the conversation of being a contender out west. OKC loses a guy that played at an elite level and didn't get an equal return on immediate talent, which now makes competing with Miami & the Lakers all that much harder.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Honestly, while I think the Thunder did the best in a tight situation, they clearly got the worst end of the deal here. Kevin Martin is an excellent shooter but he's hurt all the time and he does nothing but shoot offensively and is a horrible defender - and he'll be gone next year. Lamb looks like a future Martin only probably eventually a better player, which isn't bad but is still a worse player than Harden is right now while they're pretending to try and win championships. The picks are nice and will help them with cheap talent but the Raptors and Mavericks picks are weirdly protected which may mean they aren't forwarded for a while.

For the Rockets, they get by far the best young SG in the league. Is Shabazz going to be as good? Time will tell but the other elite SGs are all on the decline pretty significantly - Kobe, Wade, Ginobili, Joe Johnson. It's entirely possible that he's the best SG in the league in 2 years. And they made the trade while retaining max cap room for next season and a decent amount of trade assets. They obviously arne't a finished product right now and Harden is clearly their only star, but Lin is a serviceable starting PG and Asik looks like an excellent defensive starting C. All it takes is one more trade like the Harden one, or one of their infinite number of PF prospects to break out and they're on the verge of being as good as OKC - not quite as good since Durant is on another level but close. And for those saying that Harden was exposed in the playoffs last season, he was outplayed by Wade in the finals. If that's the standard for being exposed then every SG in the league falls short at this point. He held his own against Kobe and then outplayed Ginobili in the conference finals. If that's being exposed then I'd like to see lots of players on my favourite team be exposed every year.

The one team in this whole trade that should be absolutely kicking themselves is the Toronto Raptors. They traded that reverse-lotto protected pick for Kyle Lowry, an excellent player, to be sure, but no James Harden. They also had a pick they could have used to draft Lamb, but took Ross instead. Sure, they don't have Kevin Martin lying around, but they've got the likes of Calderon, Derozan, etc. and a Sacramento 2nd rounder that isn't so much worse than the Bobcats' 2nd. It's entirely plausible that they could have pulled this deal off had they not made the trade for Lowry. It's why the Rockets will be turned around quickly while the Raptors and Wizards always struggle to completely turn the corner: the Rockets are willing to be patient and are smart enough to understand that spending money on overrated veterans doesn't necessarily even make you better in the present if you draft properly.

[DCZards]

I wouldn't be so quick to crown Houston a surefire championship contender. They are still at least one superstar away from being in that category and, until he signs on the dotted line, I'm not convinced Harden will be there two years from now.

[LyricalRico]

Harden will be a max-contract player, averaging 22-25 points a game along with a lot of assists and rebounds. He is going to appear in a bunch of all star games, just like Joe Johnson after Phoenix.

And what longterm good did that really do Atlanta, who has just made cap clearing moves to potentially start over again? Harden, just like your example of Joe Johnson, is very good but not a superstar. And just like it took Atlanta several years and additional high lottery picks to complement Johnson before they made the playoffs, we might want to wait before donning Houston the next big thing.

Do I think Houston "won" the trade? Yes, but the Rockets are still far from a contender (which others have also pointed out). To keep the Atlanta perspective going, Harden+Lin+Asik isn't as good as Johnson+Smith+Horford IMO, and the West is still a deep conference. Let's not get too excited about them just yet.

[Dat2U]

DCZards, exactly who is classifying Houston a championship contender? I have not read one post that says that and would certainly agree that their at least one superstar away from being there.

But they are certainly closer than they were two days ago.

[payitforward]

I wouldn't be so quick to crown Houston a surefire championship contender. They are still at least one superstar away from being in that category and, until he signs on the dotted line, I'm not convinced Harden will be there two years from now.

Right... except for him saying he plans to sign an extension in Houston.

Given that nothing about the future is "surefire", what's your point exactly? When people criticized the Ariza/Okafor acquisition, weren't you saying the same thing. "We'll have to wait and see." You liking Ariza?

Of course we'll have to wait and see -- how exactly could that be wrong? You could say the same thing about the sun rising tomorrow.

[I_Like_Dirt]

And what longterm good did that really do Atlanta, who has just made cap clearing moves to potentially start over again? Harden, just like your example of Joe Johnson, is very good but not a superstar. And just like it took Atlanta several years and additional high lottery picks to complement Johnson before they made the playoffs, we might want to wait before donning Houston the next big thing.

Do I think Houston "won" the trade? Yes, but the Rockets are still far from a contender (which others have also pointed out). To keep the Atlanta perspective going, Harden+Lin+Asik isn't as good as Johnson+Smith+Horford IMO, and the West is still a deep conference. Let's not get too excited about them just yet.

I don't get people's fear of seeing a team become the Hawks. If your worst fear is to make the playoffs ever year with a few second round appearances, then I have to admit that I just don't understand the logic. The Hawks weren't able to capitalize on Johnson but they were also brutal in their ability to convert talent around him. They continually found themselves at the top of the draft despite having Johnson. They lucked into Smith later on in the draft after blowing a lottery pick on Josh Childress, they passed up Deron Williams and Chris Paul to take Marvin Williams. They made a huge stretch taking Sheldon Williams high in the lottery. Really, they were utterly clueless and kept finding themselves at the top of the lottery for a while despite having Johnson and they never really seemed interested in any potential blockbuster that could have moved them up the ladder and instead stayed put with the guys they drafted. They very easily could have gotten involved in the KG trade and cut out Boston and been a better team for several years.

I think the Rockets are pretty well poised for a follow-up move in the near future. If the Timberwolves struggle out of the gate with Roy being unable to play much, Rubio being out until January and an otherwise uninspiring roster, Kevin Love will eventually demand his trade to the Lakers only the Lakers have nothing to offer and the Rockets could swoop in pretty easily. There is a lot to play out and they might be first round fodder, but I'd rather be first round fodder having taken a chance to be more than sat in the lotery for years having been unwilling to take a chance.

[payitforward]

@payitforward

Was it really necessary to chop two words of my quote to make your point?

Apologies -- did I make it look like you said something different from what you meant? If so, then I misunderstood what you meant.

[payitforward]

...this is a message board and 90% of it is people's opinions. For example, you think Landry Fields is a "terrific" player, something he has yet to prove. But you're entitled to your opnion.

I happen to also believe that J. Lamb and Perry Jones, especially Jones, are going to be outstanding NBA players, and that K. Martin will, at a minumum, fill the off-the-bench scoring void left by the trade of Harden.

You are right that mostly it's opinion, and it's your privilege to believe anything you like about Lamb, Jones or anyone.

But, when I "think" Fields is "terrific", I'm not stating an opinion -- I'm putting his "terrific" numbers into a summarizing word. The numbers are not my opinion; the numbers are the numbers -- they can be compared to other players at the same position across the league. No opinion involved. Well, unless you think it's an "opinion" to value more rebounds over fewer rebounds, more steals over fewer steals, a higher FG% over a lower one, and so forth.

Maybe Perry Jones will be a terror off the bench -- but whether he does or doesn't, saying that is a different kind of statement. It doesn't summarize numbers or base itself off anything the kid has done, or relate to an existing past -- data. It's just, as you say, "opinion". No problem. I don't have anything against him. I hope he does great.

[LyricalRico]

I don't get people's fear of seeing a team become the Hawks. If your worst fear is to make the playoffs ever year with a few second round appearances, then I have to admit that I just don't understand the logic.

And I would agree with that. There is value in going from a perennial lottery team to regular playoff that might not necessarily be a contender. When it comes to the Wiz, I've preached the "take the next step" approach rather than holding out for a single transformational move. I would love for the Wiz to get to where the Hawks have been over the last few years, and then hopefully continue to build on that foundation.

What I was referring to where some who seem to be using their feelings of disappointment with the Wizards as the basis for overrating what other teams have done this offseason. It's one thing to acknowledge that another team made a move that we expect to be good for them. But it gets a little overboard IMO when every time somebody gets traded/signed/released it turns into a "woe is us" Wizards FO bashing session.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Harden will be a max-contract player, averaging 22-25 points a game along with a lot of assists and rebounds. He is going to appear in a bunch of all star games, just like Joe Johnson after Phoenix.

And what longterm good did that really do Atlanta, who has just made cap clearing moves to potentially start over again? Harden, just like your example of Joe Johnson, is very good but not a superstar. And just like it took Atlanta several years and additional high lottery picks to complement Johnson before they made the playoffs, we might want to wait before donning Houston the next big thing.

Do I think Houston "won" the trade? Yes, but the Rockets are still far from a contender (which others have also pointed out). To keep the Atlanta perspective going, Harden+Lin+Asik isn't as good as Johnson+Smith+Horford IMO, and the West is still a deep conference. Let's not get too excited about them just yet.

LR, Harden blew up last year in terms of PER and WS, but that was just one year. Based on his regular season and playoff WS/48 for all three of his NBA seasons, Harden has posted virtually twice the numbers Joe Johnson has. If not for having Westbrook and Durant his teammates, and him not having had to be the man yet, I would say James Harden is a MUCH better player than Joe Johnson. No one called Joe Johnson perhaps the best SF in the game within a couple years, at any point. Harden is it after Kobe, Wade, and Ginobili (who he has surpassed already IMO).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... eja01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... sjo02.html

What Johnson did for ATL is get them to playoffs with 50 win teams that were never better than the Magic with Dwight; the Celtics with KG, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce; or the Heat with the Big Three. But Atlanta did play them all tough in the playoffs with Johnson, who I don't think is as good as Harden.

I happen to agree with you on Johnson, Smith, Horford, LR. However, Lin is just 24 years old, Harden is 23, Asik 26. The last two already have a bunch of playoff experience. I think Terrence Jones has the potential to be every bit as good as Joe Johnson. I think Donatas Motiejunas is potentially better than Andrea Bargnani, a guy who was good enough to be picked #1 overall. I think Scott Machado is every bit as good as Avery Johnson, who was good enough to start on an NBA championship team.

I am not crowning the Rockets champs but I do think they are building with talent the same way OKC has done. Like I said above, I think they make the playoffs now as the eighth seed out west (we'll see).

[I_Like_Dirt]

What I was referring to where some who seem to be using their feelings of disappointment with the Wizards as the basis for overrating what other teams have done this offseason. It's one thing to acknowledge that another team made a move that we expect to be good for them. But it gets a little overboard IMO when every time somebody gets traded/signed/released it turns into a "woe is us" Wizards FO bashing session.

I do generally agree with this sentiment. That said, I think there's a pretty distinct difference between the Harden trade and not signing Josh Akognon.

And CCJ, the Rockets aren't building like the Thunder did at all. They're doing something completely different. It appears to be a little bit of a hybrid between how the Nuggets built and how the Celtics built where they aren't going to tank in between and are going to try and maintain a certain semblance of cap flexibility like the Nuggets did (only imo they've done a better job) while at the same time trying to flip their accumulated assets and cap space into multiple star players while keeping a functional supporting cast around them like the Celtics did. The real question for them is if they can either find that follow up move or luck into one of Montiejunas or Terrence Jones or any other of their forward prospects into becoming an allstar.

[willbcocks]

I don't get people's fear of seeing a team become the Hawks. If your worst fear is to make the playoffs ever year with a few second round appearances, then I have to admit that I just don't understand the logic.

And I would agree with that. There is value in going from a perennial lottery team to regular playoff that might not necessarily be a contender. When it comes to the Wiz, I've preached the "take the next step" approach rather than holding out for a single transformational move. I would love for the Wiz to get to where the Hawks have been over the last few years, and then hopefully continue to build on that foundation.

What I was referring to where some who seem to be using their feelings of disappointment with the Wizards as the basis for overrating what other teams have done this offseason. It's one thing to acknowledge that another team made a move that we expect to be good for them. But it gets a little overboard IMO when every time somebody gets traded/signed/released it turns into a "woe is us" Wizards FO bashing session.

Lyrical: What makes this trade different, and why we already have a six-page thread on it compared to the 3-4 page thread on the OKC baord, is that we are better fans. But the other thing that makes this trade different is that many of us wanted the team to pursue a "flexibility strategy," keeping open cap room, only using it on BOYDs, and waiting for a top-level free agent to become available. One competing view was that this was essentially a pipe-dream, no top level FA's would come to the Wiz, and EG made decent moves. The third viewpoint was that we should have gone after different players (Ilyasova, Anderson, etc), but most from this third group wanted to keep max-level cap room as well.

During a lot of these debates, Harden was the single name that came up the most in these threads. I know I brought him up more than any other names, as I thought he would be a great fit on the Wiz and it was obvious that he might become available. The writing was on the wall when Serge Ibaka was resigned, which I didn't expect, but by that point we already had invested all of our cap space in the team we have now.

If we kept the flexibility strategy, we would have had the perfect assets to trade for Harden. That's why this trade warrants discussion.

[LyricalRico]

If we kept the flexibility strategy, we would have had the perfect assets to trade for Harden.

My understanding of the deal is that HOU didn't use cap space to make this trade, but that Kevin Martin's contract was the financial centerpiece of the trade. And to a team like OKC that wants to compete for a title, Martin+picks would have been better than our cap space. Where Houston's cap space comes in is with their ability to extend Harden without paying the luxury tax, which is a valid argument in their favor. But the Wizards having 2013 cap space would not have helped us outbid Houston IMO.

[DCZards]

You are right that mostly it's opinion, and it's your privilege to believe anything you like about Lamb, Jones or anyone.

But, when I "think" Fields is "terrific", I'm not stating an opinion -- I'm putting his "terrific" numbers into a summarizing word. The numbers are not my opinion; the numbers are the numbers -- they can be compared to other players at the same position across the league. No opinion involved. Well, unless you think it's an "opinion" to value more rebounds over fewer rebounds, more steals over fewer steals, a higher FG% over a lower one, and so forth.

Payit, if you think Fields' career numbers of 9 pts., 5 rebs, 2 assists and 34% 3pt FG% are "terrific" then you have a much lower standard for terrific than I do. There are maybe 20-25 NBA players that I would call "terrific" and Landry Fields ain't close to being one of them.