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Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th

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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#381 » by Illuminaire » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:00 pm

fishercob wrote:I don't understand the controversy over the obvious statement that Irving is better than Wall. Irving is phenomenal. His game reminds me more of a prime Gilbert Arenas than of anyone I have seen since. I don't begrudge the Wizards for having the opportunity to draft Wall and not Kyrie, nor did many see Kyrie's dominance coming due to his injury-shortened lone college season.


I maintain that this "obvious statement" is not actually a clear-cut fact. Irving is a vastly superior shooter and a better ball handler. So far, though, Wall appears to be significantly better at actually passing the basketball, playing defense, and helping out on the boards. Should Irving continue to develop in those areas, and should Wall never develop a functional jumpshot to keep defenses honest, then Kyrie will indeed be 'obviously' better than Wall.

Until that happens, claims that Irving is better appear to be based solely on scoring prowess... which seems like oddly shallow analysis for the much-vaunted Wizboard. :P
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#382 » by tontoz » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:04 pm

Pretty sad that Barron was the leading rebounder given that he only played 16 minutes.
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#383 » by fishercob » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:08 pm

Illuminaire wrote:
fishercob wrote:I don't understand the controversy over the obvious statement that Irving is better than Wall. Irving is phenomenal. His game reminds me more of a prime Gilbert Arenas than of anyone I have seen since. I don't begrudge the Wizards for having the opportunity to draft Wall and not Kyrie, nor did many see Kyrie's dominance coming due to his injury-shortened lone college season.


I maintain that this "obvious statement" is not actually a clear-cut fact. Irving is a vastly superior shooter and a better ball handler. So far, though, Wall appears to be significantly better at actually passing the basketball, playing defense, and helping out on the boards. Should Irving continue to develop in those areas, and should Wall never develop a functional jumpshot to keep defenses honest, then Kyrie will indeed be 'obviously' better than Wall.

Until that happens, claims that Irving is better appear to be based solely on scoring prowess... which seems like oddly shallow analysis for the much-vaunted Wizboard. :P


Irving's vast superiority in shooting is really, really, really important. Really. Very. Quite.

That said, there's nothing to suggest that Wall is a better passer -- their assist percentages are virtually identical (and Wall turns it over more).

Defense is much harder to measure, but I severely skeptical that any difference in defense comes close to mitigate the difference in shooting (which I believe to be somewhat important).

Comparison: http://bkref.com/tiny/JhYZ0
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#384 » by Nivek » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:14 pm

Illuminaire wrote:
fishercob wrote:I don't understand the controversy over the obvious statement that Irving is better than Wall. Irving is phenomenal. His game reminds me more of a prime Gilbert Arenas than of anyone I have seen since. I don't begrudge the Wizards for having the opportunity to draft Wall and not Kyrie, nor did many see Kyrie's dominance coming due to his injury-shortened lone college season.


I maintain that this "obvious statement" is not actually a clear-cut fact. Irving is a vastly superior shooter and a better ball handler. So far, though, Wall appears to be significantly better at actually passing the basketball, playing defense, and helping out on the boards. Should Irving continue to develop in those areas, and should Wall never develop a functional jumpshot to keep defenses honest, then Kyrie will indeed be 'obviously' better than Wall.

Until that happens, claims that Irving is better appear to be based solely on scoring prowess... which seems like oddly shallow analysis for the much-vaunted Wizboard. :P


Well, let's look at the numbers. Last season, the two averaged the same number of rebounds per 36 minutes, and (per 36 minutes), Wall generated an additional 0.1 rebounds, 1.6 assists, 0.2 steals and 0.4 blocks. Turnovers per 36 minutes were nearly identical although Irving's usage rate was significantly higher.

Those "additional" rebounds, assists, etc. must be REALLY important to offset the fact that Irving was +9 points per 100 possessions with a usage rate 3.8 points higher than Wall's.

In other words, Wall had a significant advantage in assists and blocked shots. The two were about even in everything else not related to scoring. And when it comes to scoring, Irving was significantly better.

This is, of course, looking at last season. It's not writ in the Book of Life for all time and eternity that Irving will be the better player or that he'll have the better career. Wall could come back with a decent jumper and be 1st team All-NBA for the next decade. But it's obvious that Irving was the better player last season.
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#385 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:21 pm

Nivek wrote:Have not read the entire thread. I took a quick look at the numbers here.

Going by the numbers, Ariza, Barron and Webster were productive. Okafor wasn't terrible, but wasn't "good" either. Crawford, Vesely, Beal and Singleton were bad. Pargo and price were horrible. Booker was a catastrophe.


Agree with most of this.

At the end Singleton and Pargo actually were part of a unit that was outplaying Cleveland. Good things happened with them on the court alongside Webster and Barron. Pargo was better than Price because he wasn't trying to play hero ball.
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#386 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:33 pm

fishercob wrote:I don't understand the controversy over the obvious statement that Irving is better than Wall. Irving is phenomenal. His game reminds me more of a prime Gilbert Arenas than of anyone I have seen since. I don't begrudge the Wizards for having the opportunity to draft Wall and not Kyrie, nor did many see Kyrie's dominance coming due to his injury-shortened lone college season.

Back to the game, a few more thoughts before moving on:

The Cavs are horrific after Irving and Varajeo (for now; they are well positioned to add talent). I hope we're healthy on 12/26 and blow them out.

Alonzo Gee is a phenomenal on-ball defender.

Terrible game by Booker. He cannot allow us to get bullied and outhustled on the boards. I don't care about his jumper or his up an under. If he can't rebound, particularly defensively, he's of marginal use.

Vesely looked better. He looks more comfortable at the 5. But he's still so weak that he has the ball stripped to easily and can't finish in any kind of traffic. I'm not sure if he can get strong enough to mitigate this issues, at least not without losing his quickness.

Agree with CCJ on the late-game subs being to our significant detriment (particularly Price over Pargo). I will cut Randy some slack. He's still getting to know these guys and trying to settle on a rotation. Price had won the job and the right to his minutes and Pargo had shown very little. The swap hurt us late, but I understand it.

Lastly, I have no problem with trading Javale McGee. Zero. I think it's nearly addition by subtraction. But if Nene's foot issues linger for months or, perish the thought, years, then the trade will be yet another abject Grunfail. I know he's a very good player. But he's got to play. I am hoping this he's back in a couple of weeks and it's the last we hear of it. But, as a Wizards fan, I obviously have a horrendous feeling about the situation.

Onward.


I agree on cutting the coach some slack. I believe he did a very good job getting everyone involved. My favorite coaches are the ones who are not afraid to try different combinations and who play a deep bench. To his credit, Randy Wittman stuck with the reserves for a very long stretch. Earl Barron played very, very well and Randy deservedly left him on the court. (I wonder whether Randy could have played Barron at the end with Okafor?) Wittman did at least not play any favorites per se.

Surprisingly, Beal was a bit of a goat at the end. Coach Wittman couldn't have seen that coming. Price had won the starting spot as you said, fish. I questioned Ariza back in for Webster, but Ariza had played a pretty strong game. The thing I hope to see if they both have it going is Webster at SG.

This particular game Crawford was 4-13 FG and Price 2-13 FG. Not to knock coach Wittman at all, but I think Webster at SG would worked out better with Pargo. Just one game and I'm not mad. But it was very winnable.
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#387 » by Nivek » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:43 pm

I think that run had a reasonable chance of happening almost regardless of who the Wizards had on the floor. Cleveland's lineup was Zeller-Miles-Gibson-Walton-Sloan. If we gave Randy Wittman a chance to handpick Cleveland's lineup for maximum Wizards success, I think it's likely he'd have chosen those 5.
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#388 » by Mel Proctor » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:01 pm

I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread, but is it possible the Ernie and the brain trust whiffed again by taking Beal over Waiters? Granted, just one game, but to me, Waiters was superior in every facet of the game, highlighted by his excellent D on Beal's breakway layup.
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#389 » by Nivek » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:05 pm

Mel Proctor wrote:I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread, but is it possible the Ernie and the brain trust whiffed again by taking Beal over Waiters? Granted, just one game, but to me, Waiters was superior in every facet of the game, highlighted by his excellent D on Beal's breakway layup.


In my ratings of college prospects, I viewed Beal as the significantly better prospect. I wouldn't read anything into one game.

I think Waiters will be good. I think Beal will be better.
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#390 » by Brenice » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:06 pm

Nivek wrote:
Illuminaire wrote:
fishercob wrote:I don't understand the controversy over the obvious statement that Irving is better than Wall. Irving is phenomenal. His game reminds me more of a prime Gilbert Arenas than of anyone I have seen since. I don't begrudge the Wizards for having the opportunity to draft Wall and not Kyrie, nor did many see Kyrie's dominance coming due to his injury-shortened lone college season.


I maintain that this "obvious statement" is not actually a clear-cut fact. Irving is a vastly superior shooter and a better ball handler. So far, though, Wall appears to be significantly better at actually passing the basketball, playing defense, and helping out on the boards. Should Irving continue to develop in those areas, and should Wall never develop a functional jumpshot to keep defenses honest, then Kyrie will indeed be 'obviously' better than Wall.

Until that happens, claims that Irving is better appear to be based solely on scoring prowess... which seems like oddly shallow analysis for the much-vaunted Wizboard. :P


Well, let's look at the numbers. Last season, the two averaged the same number of rebounds per 36 minutes, and (per 36 minutes), Wall generated an additional 0.1 rebounds, 1.6 assists, 0.2 steals and 0.4 blocks. Turnovers per 36 minutes were nearly identical although Irving's usage rate was significantly higher.

Those "additional" rebounds, assists, etc. must be REALLY important to offset the fact that Irving was +9 points per 100 possessions with a usage rate 3.8 points higher than Wall's.

In other words, Wall had a significant advantage in assists and blocked shots. The two were about even in everything else not related to scoring. And when it comes to scoring, Irving was significantly better.

This is, of course, looking at last season. It's not writ in the Book of Life for all time and eternity that Irving will be the better player or that he'll have the better career. Wall could come back with a decent jumper and be 1st team All-NBA for the next decade. But it's obvious that Irving was the better player last season.


Not that Kyrie played on a great team last year, but Wall played on a team of dummies with poor on-court spacing to boot. Early in the season, teams were able to overly focus on Wall, and the non-competive nature of those castoffs apeared to cause wall to play outside of his natural game, and it resulted in a lot of overly contested layups that weren't finished. After the tradem Wakk okated better with snarterm competitive teammates. Walls stats were skewed last year, IMO. Kyrie is the better shooter, and handler. Wall is the better player.
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#391 » by fishercob » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:11 pm

Nivek wrote:I think that run had a reasonable chance of happening almost regardless of who the Wizards had on the floor. Cleveland's lineup was Zeller-Miles-Gibson-Walton-Sloan. If we gave Randy Wittman a chance to handpick Cleveland's lineup for maximum Wizards success, I think it's likely he'd have chosen those 5.


I was texting back and forth during the game with a Cavs fan friend who was FREAKING OUT during the Wizards' run and cursing Byron Scott's rotations. I assured him that Andy and Irving would be back in at the 8 minute mark and that they would win by 10.

CCJ, Beal did not play well at the end, but I thought Wittman waited faaaar too long to bring him back in. 19-year old rookie playing his first NBA game, on the road no less. He had been sitting since 3:26 into the third quarter -- 16 game minutes and probably close to an hour of actual time. At that point, just keep him sitting for the balance of the game. Wittman did him no favors by throwing him back into a virtually tie game at that point.
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#392 » by fishercob » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:11 pm

double post
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#393 » by fishercob » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:11 pm

....
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#394 » by fishercob » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:12 pm

Man this site blows.
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#395 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:10 pm

Nivek wrote:I think that run had a reasonable chance of happening almost regardless of who the Wizards had on the floor. Cleveland's lineup was Zeller-Miles-Gibson-Walton-Sloan. If we gave Randy Wittman a chance to handpick Cleveland's lineup for maximum Wizards success, I think it's likely he'd have chosen those 5.


I thought Byron Scott was the Wizards best hope. He almost kept Irving, Dion Waiter, Anderson Varejao, and Tristen Thompson out just long enough.
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#396 » by Manny Phresh » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:56 pm

I think it's safe to say that your bench is way far superior than the Cavs. And had John Wall played, I think the Wizards pull out a close one. If Nene plays as well, we'd lost by 10 or more and I'm not sure Andy gets 22 boards. Double digits for sure but not that many.

I seen at stat somewhere that said that last 4 number one overall picks have had knee problems. (Oden, Rose, Griffin, Wall)... I'm hoping all signs don't point to the unspeakable.

Hoping John Wall comes back soon!!!!
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#397 » by cdouglas » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:08 pm

Hey, it's our first game so how about if we wait and see what the team looks like in December before we bash Leonsis.
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#398 » by Nivek » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:11 pm

cdouglas wrote:Hey, it's our first game so how about if we wait and see what the team looks like in December before we bash Leonsis.


No need to wait. Some of us have been bashing Leonsis for months now. :D
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#399 » by jivelikenice » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:22 pm

cdouglas wrote:Hey, it's our first game so how about if we wait and see what the team looks like in December before we bash Leonsis.


Good point. Until we see how all of these parts look with Wall & Neni in the fold, its pretty foolish to bash the plan. I just think the frustration is in seeing a guy like Crowder play well for Dallas, yet in our FO's opinion, he's not good enough to contribute here. Or in seeing a guy like Crawford yet again act as though he has to play hero ball for us to be competitive. Or in seeing a guy like Ariza get the starting gig over Webster even though he was outplayed for it in the preseason. I won't bash the overall plan, but I will bash decisions that seem easy enough to make from the outside looking in.
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Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th 

Post#400 » by Brenice » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:28 pm

One of the keys is the development of Seraphin. He should be a priority. He, just like Webster being behind Ariza, should not be behind Okafor on the depth chart. Nene is good, but it looks like he will be damaged goods for the rest of his career.

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