Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Hey, it's our first game so how about if we wait and see what the team looks like in December before we bash Leonsis.

Here is when I started on Leonsis. I thought Nene was an injury risk the day the McGee trade went down. I posted so then. Nene can play when he is healthy, but how often is that? Leonsis got a pass when the season ended on such a positive note, even if Nene did miss a few games last season as a Wizard.

However, I KNEW the day he acquired Okafor that was just flat stupid. Why get yet another veteran leader? Nene was inspirational, at the least. And what about span of control? They had a good thing at the end of the season and went and messed up the chemistry. How? Seraphin, Booker, Singleton, and Vesely's minutes were jeopardized. Seraphin I thought was better than Okafor at almost all but rebounding. James Singleton out rebounded Okafor last season. But worse than acquiring an overpaid Okafor was including Ariza at his salary. I've been one of those down on Leonsis for months because of what the Wizards might have been able to do had they simply bought out Rashard Lewis (and amnestied Blatche). Tying up cap space for marginal veterans like Okafor and Ariza was another inept move by a bad GM. This owner IMO flat sucks for keeping EG.

But I will admit this, cdouglas, what really is the problem is Wall and Nene being injured. I would happily have shut up even with short-term mediocrity playing overpriced/too-injured veterans if the team were all together. The Nene injury is a killer, and not having Wall with Beal is also a huge downer. The part I blame Leonsis for is acquiring Nene in the first place when Denver (obviously) unloaded him because Nene kept missing games. Now he's Ted's problem.

I am going to keep talking about Ted and EG as long as they lose, because they spent money on fair to poor veterans and are doing the same dumb things that NEVER work.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

One of the keys is the development of Seraphin. He should be a priority. He, just like Webster being behind Ariza, should not be behind Okafor on the depth chart. Nene is good, but it looks like he will be damaged goods for the rest of his career.

+1

[MikeTheKid]

All I ask is what happened to Witt preaching accountability and the best players playing? Shouldn't he be practicing what he preaches? Webster and Beal should be getting 32-35mpg and Ariza should be riding the pine Pony!

[Dat2U]

One of the keys is the development of Seraphin. He should be a priority. He, just like Webster being behind Ariza, should not be behind Okafor on the depth chart. Nene is good, but it looks like he will be damaged goods for the rest of his career.

+1

Professionalism and veteran leadership doesn't mean a damn thing if your not consistently in the lineup.

The Nene trade was a desperate move made by a GM looking to save his job. A brief but meaningless uptick in performance leads him to overreact and double down on the veteran movement with the Okafor/Ariza deal. Especially since he didn't want to take the risk of losing out in free agency and thusly sold the idea to Teddy that we weren't a desirable destination and couldn't compete in free agency (which if true, he's played a starring role in creating that notion).

I just simply marvel at EG's ability to maintain his employment. He's almost at Teflon Don status now. His ability to spin his failures is beyond reproach. He's been able to deflect some incredibly bad situations and yet he still gets contract extensions and the unabashed favor of his bosses.

[Brenice]

A brief but meaningless uptick in performance leads him to overreact and double down on the veteran movement with the Okafor/Ariza deal.

It's sad that so far it appears that throwing salary aside, Okafor and Ariza are no more valuable than Barron and Webster. Does that make Okafor and Ariza a waste or redundant?

[Illuminaire]

Fish and Nivek,

You may be right. However, I believe the difference in passing ability is greater than the numbers show. Irving's teammates last season may not have been all-stars, but Wall's were complete scrubs at putting the ball in the basket. I think it's a little easier for a natural shooter/scorer to excel in a bad situation than a natural passer/setup man.

Time will tell, and you are correct on other counts; I was apparently thinking of a different PG's rebound rate and not Irving's, which is pretty good. Whoops!

[pancakes3]

Man this site blows.

Well... any site that'll have you (and me)...

[hands11]

News flash. Wizards struggle in season opener without their two best players.

The thing I was most disappointed in was the way Booker played. They really needed him tonight and he pretty much laid an egg.

I really believe that this needed to be repeated. No Wall, who for all his deficiencies is still 100x better than Price and Pargo (who combined to play 45 min).

No Nene, who is our rock down low and best post presence.

No Booker, well he played but played like crap.

No Seraphin. And people are "shocked" because we lost.

Come now fellas, give it a break. It's clear that this team is not built to withstand the lose of it's best two players, I would argue which team is? We will struggle mightily until those guys return, it's an unfortunate fact.

I watch a Wall video on nba.com where here and Kevin were watching a preseason game at Walls house.

Wall was breaking it down. Kevin was hanging out with him being the gentle giant.

Wall at one point said this.... I'm posting people up this year. None of them at taller then me. Some my be bigger, but they aren't taller. I'm going to post them up. I worked on that all off season.

That you have it. Wall is going to add some Jason Kidd to his game.

[hands11]

I don't understand the controversy over the obvious statement that Irving is better than Wall. Irving is phenomenal. His game reminds me more of a prime Gilbert Arenas than of anyone I have seen since. I don't begrudge the Wizards for having the opportunity to draft Wall and not Kyrie, nor did many see Kyrie's dominance coming due to his injury-shortened lone college season.

Back to the game, a few more thoughts before moving on:

The Cavs are horrific after Irving and Varajeo (for now; they are well positioned to add talent). I hope we're healthy on 12/26 and blow them out.

Alonzo Gee is a phenomenal on-ball defender.

Terrible game by Booker. He cannot allow us to get bullied and outhustled on the boards. I don't care about his jumper or his up an under. If he can't rebound, particularly defensively, he's of marginal use.

Vesely looked better. He looks more comfortable at the 5. But he's still so weak that he has the ball stripped to easily and can't finish in any kind of traffic. I'm not sure if he can get strong enough to mitigate this issues, at least not without losing his quickness.

Agree with CCJ on the late-game subs being to our significant detriment (particularly Price over Pargo). I will cut Randy some slack. He's still getting to know these guys and trying to settle on a rotation. Price had won the job and the right to his minutes and Pargo had shown very little. The swap hurt us late, but I understand it.

Lastly, I have no problem with trading Javale McGee. Zero. I think it's nearly addition by subtraction. But if Nene's foot issues linger for months or, perish the thought, years, then the trade will be yet another abject Grunfail. I know he's a very good player. But he's got to play. I am hoping this he's back in a couple of weeks and it's the last we hear of it. But, as a Wizards fan, I obviously have a horrendous feeling about the situation.

Onward.

Fish, your making way to much sense. Sadly it will get wasted on way to many people who post there.

[hands11]

Have not read the entire thread. I took a quick look at the numbers here.

Going by the numbers, Ariza, Barron and Webster were productive. Okafor wasn't terrible, but wasn't "good" either. Crawford, Vesely, Beal and Singleton were bad. Pargo and price were horrible. Booker was a catastrophe.

I guess the numbers lie.

Barron was outstanding.
Ariza was ok. Beal hit a few then it was like Beal who ?
Okafor was terrible. Mop head crushed him. His numbers look ok until you see what the mop did.
The second Barron came in, the rebounding changed.
Crawford was good and bad. He help in some ways a ton. And he hurt with ineffective shooting from range.
Pargo was more good then bad. He hit the 3 to take the lead.
Price killed them down the stetch.
Booker was terrible.

[hands11]

News flash. Wizards struggle in season opener without their two best players.

The thing I was most disappointed in was the way Booker played. They really needed him tonight and he pretty much laid an egg.

I really believe that this needed to be repeated. No Wall, who for all his deficiencies is still 100x better than Price and Pargo (who combined to play 45 min).

No Nene, who is our rock down low and best post presence.

No Booker, well he played but played like crap.

No Seraphin. And people are "shocked" because we lost.

Come now fellas, give it a break. It's clear that this team is not built to withstand the lose of it's best two players, I would argue which team is? We will struggle mightily until those guys return, it's an unfortunate fact.

STRAWMAN ALERT!

Who's shocked? No one is shocked!

What you two are (perhaps intentionally) miscontruing is the recollections of people who thought the Wizards management would have served the team well by making the acquisition of a quality veteran PG/3G a priority, who had reservations about Nene's durability, considering his age and history (Hands, maybe it's about time to change the bottom of your posts?), who thought that the trade that used up all the cap space for Okafor and Ariza was quite misguided. Half the salary is spent on the three ostensible frontcourt starters: one is injured, one is average and was quite outmatched much of the first game, and one looks like he barely gives a crap most of the time.

Yes, we will lose a lot of games this year, but (NEWS FLASH!) no one will be all that shocked.

Look monistat

I'm not changing my sig because it happens to be true.

Stop with the over reacting about everything. My God. I get the sense you would complain at a Penthouse party.

Nene F'd up playing in the Olympics. I don't think anyone is happy about it. But it's not like he has a torn ACL.
Booker recovered from the same injury. Why ? 6 months rest and treatment.

They didn't have Wall, Nene and Kevin. All will return. None have a Gil condition. That is not a straw man. That is the facts.

Remove Kyrie and Mop head from the Cavs and add Wall, Nene and Kevin. Now predict the score. Wiz would have crushed them.

Wiz actually did pretty damn well to fight back and take the lead. They could have easily gave up.

Webster was a good find. Down the road that will help when they get the other best players back.
And for now, Barron has played amazing the last two games.

As for Trevor A and Oak. Right. No one liked the trade. We all wanted to add a player like Crawler and or White. But its not our money. Get over it. We have them. So hope for the best. Trevor A actually played a lot better then he did in preseason. Lets hope he does even better next game. Most of us are looking forward to when we have moved past them. But I get why Ted wanted to do that deal. It was over reacting to the past. Sure. But I get it. Move on.

[hands11]

Pretty sad that Barron was the leading rebounder given that he only played 16 minutes.

Or he was a smart add.

The man is no all star but he has shown to have some use. And he is 7-0. He does have a ring. And he did make one hell of a drive on mop head with a reverse layup. Give the man some credit and the Wiz for keeping him. Most wanted Cook. Would he have posted those numbers. 8 rebounds and 1 block in 16 minutes is pretty damn good production. Project that out to Varejao's minutes and how many rebounds is that ?

[montestewart]

Hands,

The strawman was the "shock" that MDstar fabricated, and you aided the disinformation by implying anyone needed a "newsflash" to know the Wizards would suck without Wall, Nene, and Seraphin. So, you failed reading comprehension but not disingenuity.

But believe me Hands, I'm not upset at all. You're the one with sweat on your brow. I'm having fun with this conversation. It's kind of like talking with EG himself. But really, stop with all the sexist and homophobic comments. Are you still in high school?

Peace out.

PS: Your sig is not true. You don't know, nor have you ever offered any evidence other than your own opinion, that the sole reason Nene sat out all those Wizards games was to aid the tank and rest an otherwise perfectly healthy specimen. He only played 28 of 43 Denver games before he was traded, and the Nuggets weren't tanking. And you blithely ignore multiple non-cancer related injuries prior to that cherry-picked three year period. Your sig is about as true as a Republican debate point, Mitt. Oh the depths you wing nuts will drag the dialogue down to.

[Zonkerbl]

Hands, he called you a Republican!

Oh, man, it is on like Donkey Kong now!

[hands11]

Hands, he called you a Republican!

Oh, man, it is on like Donkey Kong now!

I know. What's up with that.

He has left the ranch. Incoherent ramblings. Didn't even get the sequence of the posts correct.
Something about some sexiest and homophobic comments. What was he talking about ?
Then he drops the R insult and the Mitt bomb.

I don't know. Maybe he's doing that bath salt stuff.

[montestewart]

Hands, he called you a Republican!

Oh, man, it is on like Donkey Kong now!

I know. What's up with that.

He has left the ranch. Incoherent ramblings. Didn't even get the sequence of the posts correct.
Something about some sexiest and homophobic comments. What was he talking about ?
Then he drops the R insult and the Mitt bomb.

I don't know. Maybe he's doing that bath salt stuff.

Come on Mitt146, don't get so defensive. As usual, you don't even recall things posted on the same page, five above your most recent post, where you quoted the sequence I referenced. There was no claim that your aid to disinformation came before or after MDStar's straw man (it is, after all, ongoing), so there is no problem with sequence, other than in your head. More problems with the truth Mitt, or is it just reading comprehension again?

You keep responding like you are above all this (yet you keep responding), continuing your history of non-accountability. The reason there is no "Hands got it right again" thread (well, beside the obvious reason) is because CCJ, in addition to trumpeting how right he was and when, also issues frequent and high profile "I was wrong" statements and is willing to modify his positions based upon what is in front of him, and admit as much. You just get stuck in an opinion, and refuse to back away from the wording, either going to painful contortions to continue to support it, or merely disavowing you ever thought that way in the first place. This on top of constantly telling everyone that you predicted everything correctly from the get go, a very ingratiating trait there. Finally, in the face of this relentless non-fact based disinformation, there is the condescension. Really, where in the world do you find the ability to talk down to anyone on this board, yet you do, constantly. Is it any wonder that I might take such facetious joy in response? Mitt?

PS: payitforward, and anyone else that's been following, knows exactly why you are Mitt. You bought it. Now own it.

[dobrojim]

without reading this entire thread I wanna just stand up and take
personal responsibility for this loss. In the prediction thread
my hopelessly optimistic prediction (39 w) was buttressed
by the clearly erroneous belief that certain mediocre players
on our roster would be better than mediocre. They really
harshed my buzz in game 1. So sorry for that.

[MDStar]

Hands,

The strawman was the "shock" that MDstar fabricated, and you aided the disinformation by implying anyone needed a "newsflash" to know the Wizards would suck without Wall, Nene, and Seraphin. So, you failed reading comprehension but not disingenuity.

Monte, I guess i'm not sure what your issue with my post was. I didn't even have to go back very far to find these two gems:

Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th
by Jay81 on Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:19 pm

"this might be the worst team Ernie has put together and thats saying alot. Even when everyone is healthy, its a medicore team with expensive players.

What a disaster Ted and Ernie are. I wouldnt be surprised at a 0-10 start"

Re: Wiz at Cleveland 7:00 PM Tuesday Oct 30th
by FAH1223 on Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:26 pm

"Ernie has to be fired if this team struggles to begin the season, he has to...

Oh wait... the injuries excuse..."

That's not even taking into account the posts about Irving being better than Wall, after a game in which Wall didn't even play. In addition to the poster who spoke about us making a mistake with Beal and how we maybe should have drafted Waiters because he had a better game. My "shock" comment, which may not have been directed to you, however can most certainly be directed at others who seem completely disturbed and depressed by the lose to the Cavs on Tuesday. And yes, while there may be some who genuinely don't like the direction of the franchise no matter if we win or lose a game. However it certainly obvious to me that there are are many posters here who are just extremely bi polar when it comes to the Wizards, as the exhibit euphoria when they win and extreme devastation when they lose. My point in it all is that we lost a game in which we were expected to lose based on the roster we are forced to play with at this point in time. There shouldn't be a whole lot of confusion about that.

Just my 2 cents.

[nate33]

Alright hands and montestewart. You've both said your piece. Let's end the flame war now.

[montestewart]

MDStar, point well taken. Although Jay81 is a particular case, there are people that feel EG should be held accountable for failure, injuries notwithstanding, because they (we) feel he has assembled a vulnerable roster. Wall's injury was unpredictable, but many here have long advocated for a better backup PG. Many also were concerned about Nene's health, and for good reason. Blaming it on the Olympics, as if that was unforseeable, is silly. Where's the due diligence? My point (to you, at least), is that people aren't exactly "shocked" by the team's performance (just look at the preseason predictions), even if it's difficult to watch. And we will watch, regardless of silly accusations that we are not true fans. I would guess as well that most are no longer shocked by the lack of accountability from ownership and management.

I have no doubt that you are a true fan. I just want them to be better. I think fans should hold ownership/management to a high standard.