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James Harden at 80mil over 5 years

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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#81 » by knicksnyk » Fri Nov 2, 2012 5:57 pm

StutterStep wrote:People laughing now but remember how Lin looked until defenses zoned in on him. Last night Harden was in a zone, sort of like when a player goes for 50pts and wakes up the league.

Once defenders zone in on Harden, let's see what his FG% becomes and his scoring.


yeah this is a very interesting point.

Let's approach this in terms of X's and O's.

To take out the 3 point shot, you need to play Harden TIGHT. However, if you do that then he is fast enough to drive past you.

To take out his drives, you need to pack the paint. Any single coverage outside of a premium big, he'll just do a step around and score.

So, to take out both, you require a minimum of 2 defenders. One to play Harden up close (or he'll drop the 3) AND one or more help defenders available on the switch to rotate into the paint.

This is why Harden was having such difficulty when Lin was sitting. The Rockets don't have alot of credible offensive players. Delfino can score, but he's not creating his own shot. Defenses will realize this fairly quickly and simply double Harden and play Delfino tight then dare the rest of the team (players like TD) to shoot while packing the paint.

When Lin was sitting, the Pistons were able to play Harden close, AND rotate a help defender to double team him, and STILL have a close rotation defender to stop him if he manages to split the double team.

The end result was what you saw... Harden passing out of the double team. That results in a 4 on 3 mismatch, which is great IF you can score the ball once it's out of Harden's hands.

This is where Lin's presence is critical. Since Lin CAN generate his own shot, and he IS a good passer with good court vision, he's able to take maximum advantage of the mismatches that result from overplaying Harden.

This goes both ways. Because Lin is a great scorer like harden defenses have to respect him. They still play him fairly tight with help defense. You'll notice in last night's game they hardly ever sagged off him despite his shooting in the pre-season.

And this is why Harden + Lin was so much more devastating than Harden on his own, or Lin on his own will ever be.


As long as Harden is on the floor with another credible offensive player (which in the case of the Rockets right now is Lin and to a lesser degree Delfino), he will likely suceed. The main difference here is it's a bonus that Lin is the complete package at the PG position. He is not only able to find easy shots for his team mates but score as well. Essentially a double bonus for the PG position vs a pg like a Rubio who is weak individual as an offensive threat


And it's this particular dynamic between the two players that led me to predict that Lin and Harden's game were pretty close to ideal in terms of fit.


2 x driving threats that can pass and score means for a defense it's pick your poison.
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#82 » by j4remi » Fri Nov 2, 2012 6:12 pm

StutterStep wrote:People laughing now but remember how Lin looked until defenses zoned in on him. Last night Harden was in a zone, sort of like when a player goes for 50pts and wakes up the league.

Once defenders zone in on Harden, let's see what his FG% becomes and his scoring.


Probably helps that they went into that game with the trade on such short notice that he was likely no where in the game plan or film sessions until the day of the game. I think Harden will do well, but that was EXTREME lol. Dude killed it.
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#83 » by Charsace » Fri Nov 2, 2012 6:19 pm

j4remi wrote:
StutterStep wrote:People laughing now but remember how Lin looked until defenses zoned in on him. Last night Harden was in a zone, sort of like when a player goes for 50pts and wakes up the league.

Once defenders zone in on Harden, let's see what his FG% becomes and his scoring.


Probably helps that they went into that game with the trade on such short notice that he was likely no where in the game plan or film sessions until the day of the game. I think Harden will do well, but that was EXTREME lol. Dude killed it.

There is tons of film on Harden. He did nothing different from what he did on the Thunder for the 3 seasons he was there. Its just hard to stop a big body guard that can get into the lane. Its why the Cavs took Waiters so high. Today's rules makes it damn hard to stop a 220lbs+ guy like Harden. Or Wade. Or Gordon. Which is why I pray twice a day that Shumpert's jumper improves. Harden also shot poorly in his first season. Then he improved his just every year and now he's a beast.
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#84 » by j4remi » Fri Nov 2, 2012 6:21 pm

Charsace wrote:
j4remi wrote:
StutterStep wrote:People laughing now but remember how Lin looked until defenses zoned in on him. Last night Harden was in a zone, sort of like when a player goes for 50pts and wakes up the league.

Once defenders zone in on Harden, let's see what his FG% becomes and his scoring.


Probably helps that they went into that game with the trade on such short notice that he was likely no where in the game plan or film sessions until the day of the game. I think Harden will do well, but that was EXTREME lol. Dude killed it.

There is tons of film on Harden. He did nothing different from what he did on the Thunder for the 3 seasons he was there. Its just hard to stop a big body guard that can get into the lane. Its why the Cavs took Waiters so high. Today's rules makes it damn hard to stop a 220lbs+ guy like Harden. Or Wade. Or Gordon.


I'm not saying there was no film or that he's easy to stop. I'm saying Detroit came in with a gameplan for Kevin Martin not Harden. They probably didn't have a set plan to stop him and it was likely a day's worth of preparation to shift from guarding a shooter who trys to draw fouls and has weaker handle...to a ballhandling, big bodied talent who can shoot AND slash. Hence Harden being able to do anything he friggin pleased against their defense.
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#85 » by R-DAWG » Fri Nov 2, 2012 6:26 pm

Houston needs a front court scorer and they could be a very nice team. You put a healthy Amare on a team Harden and supporting pieces that fit, a pass first average PG in Lin, a shooter in Buddinger, and a defensive C in Asik and you have something there.

THIS is a situation where it makes sense to take a flyer on Amare.
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#86 » by Gil » Fri Nov 2, 2012 6:34 pm

R-DAWG wrote:Houston needs a front court scorer and they could be a very nice team. You put a healthy Amare on a team Harden and supporting pieces that fit, a pass first average PG in Lin, a shooter in Buddinger, and a defensive C in Asik and you have something there.

THIS is a situation where it makes sense to take a flyer on Amare.

Unfortunately, Morey isn't a complete idiot.
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#87 » by earthmansurfer » Fri Nov 2, 2012 6:36 pm

knicksnyk wrote:
StutterStep wrote:People laughing now but remember how Lin looked until defenses zoned in on him. Last night Harden was in a zone, sort of like when a player goes for 50pts and wakes up the league.

Once defenders zone in on Harden, let's see what his FG% becomes and his scoring.


yeah this is a very interesting point.

Let's approach this in terms of X's and O's.

To take out the 3 point shot, you need to play Harden TIGHT. However, if you do that then he is fast enough to drive past you.

To take out his drives, you need to pack the paint. Any single coverage outside of a premium big, he'll just do a step around and score.

So, to take out both, you require a minimum of 2 defenders. One to play Harden up close (or he'll drop the 3) AND one or more help defenders available on the switch to rotate into the paint.

This is why Harden was having such difficulty when Lin was sitting. The Rockets don't have alot of credible offensive players. Delfino can score, but he's not creating his own shot. Defenses will realize this fairly quickly and simply double Harden and play Delfino tight then dare the rest of the team (players like TD) to shoot while packing the paint.

When Lin was sitting, the Pistons were able to play Harden close, AND rotate a help defender to double team him, and STILL have a close rotation defender to stop him if he manages to split the double team.

The end result was what you saw... Harden passing out of the double team. That results in a 4 on 3 mismatch, which is great IF you can score the ball once it's out of Harden's hands.

This is where Lin's presence is critical. Since Lin CAN generate his own shot, and he IS a good passer with good court vision, he's able to take maximum advantage of the mismatches that result from overplaying Harden.

This goes both ways. Because Lin is a great scorer like harden defenses have to respect him. They still play him fairly tight with help defense. You'll notice in last night's game they hardly ever sagged off him despite his shooting in the pre-season.

And this is why Harden + Lin was so much more devastating than Harden on his own, or Lin on his own will ever be.


As long as Harden is on the floor with another credible offensive player (which in the case of the Rockets right now is Lin and to a lesser degree Delfino), he will likely suceed. The main difference here is it's a bonus that Lin is the complete package at the PG position. He is not only able to find easy shots for his team mates but score as well. Essentially a double bonus for the PG position vs a pg like a Rubio who is weak individual as an offensive threat


And it's this particular dynamic between the two players that led me to predict that Lin and Harden's game were pretty close to ideal in terms of fit.


2 x driving threats that can pass and score means for a defense it's pick your poison.


Great post. You said exactly what I was thinking (kidding). To think we could have had a Shump Lin backcourt. Ok, Shump is no where near Harden but he really disrupted opposing PG's. It is going to be very very fun to see what Lin and Harden do. And Asik is going to benefit from basically having two PG's out there, as will everyone else. They have an exciting team. Just need something special at F.
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#88 » by R-DAWG » Fri Nov 2, 2012 6:39 pm

Gil wrote:
R-DAWG wrote:Houston needs a front court scorer and they could be a very nice team. You put a healthy Amare on a team Harden and supporting pieces that fit, a pass first average PG in Lin, a shooter in Buddinger, and a defensive C in Asik and you have something there.

THIS is a situation where it makes sense to take a flyer on Amare.

Unfortunately, Morey isn't a complete idiot.


Look, say Amare comes back in Jan, looks healthy but it's not working with Melo. HOU could take a flyer on him being healthy for the playoffs (assuming they will remove all fire extinguishers from the arena). It's 50-50 what you get from him next year and the following year he's expiring. If they can get Amare cheap enough, then it's worth rolling the dice.
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#89 » by Bill Bradley » Fri Nov 2, 2012 6:46 pm

R-DAWG wrote:
Gil wrote:
R-DAWG wrote:Houston needs a front court scorer and they could be a very nice team. You put a healthy Amare on a team Harden and supporting pieces that fit, a pass first average PG in Lin, a shooter in Buddinger, and a defensive C in Asik and you have something there.

THIS is a situation where it makes sense to take a flyer on Amare.

Unfortunately, Morey isn't a complete idiot.


Look, say Amare comes back in Jan, looks healthy but it's not working with Melo. HOU could take a flyer on him being healthy for the playoffs (assuming they will remove all fire extinguishers from the arena). It's 50-50 what you get from him next year and the following year he's expiring. If they can get Amare cheap enough, then it's worth rolling the dice.


Like has been said, Morey is not a moron so this wouldn't work. The Rockets have max cap room this offseason. They are not going to blow that space on Amare. Personally, I would rather have Terrance Jones than Amare as my starting PF. We will see if McHale gives him PT tonight so he can show what he has.
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#90 » by R-DAWG » Fri Nov 2, 2012 6:52 pm

tru, well maybe if no one signs there we can dump amare for a tpe.

man, amare and a-rod, add in santonio and sanchez, ugh
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#91 » by postcall » Fri Nov 2, 2012 7:09 pm

I still dont understand what could make you believe that a team like the Rockets who are building for the future would even consider signing a supermax contract player clearly on the decline with bad knees especially when they already have room for a max contract. You would need to send them a package of picks including at least 2 first round picks at the least for them to absorb that monstrosity of a contract. The only player we have that they might want is Shumpert. I dont even know what it would take for the salaries to match up to make the trade kegal but it would be almost impossible. Also Moray went to MIT not Hamburger college.
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#92 » by JDs_loot » Fri Nov 2, 2012 7:25 pm

I could be wrong, but I don't think he's good enough to get that kind of money.
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#93 » by earthmansurfer » Fri Nov 2, 2012 7:37 pm

Bill Bradley wrote:
R-DAWG wrote:
Gil wrote:Unfortunately, Morey isn't a complete idiot.


Look, say Amare comes back in Jan, looks healthy but it's not working with Melo. HOU could take a flyer on him being healthy for the playoffs (assuming they will remove all fire extinguishers from the arena). It's 50-50 what you get from him next year and the following year he's expiring. If they can get Amare cheap enough, then it's worth rolling the dice.


Like has been said, Morey is not a moron so this wouldn't work. The Rockets have max cap room this offseason. They are not going to blow that space on Amare. Personally, I would rather have Terrance Jones than Amare as my starting PF. We will see if McHale gives him PT tonight so he can show what he has.


Man, if they get a star forward and some bench they might be able to take us out. I can see home games at the Garden cheering for Lin. I really hope Dolan goes to one of those games. :lol:
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#94 » by StutterStep » Fri Nov 2, 2012 10:01 pm

j4remi wrote:
StutterStep wrote:People laughing now but remember how Lin looked until defenses zoned in on him. Last night Harden was in a zone, sort of like when a player goes for 50pts and wakes up the league.

Once defenders zone in on Harden, let's see what his FG% becomes and his scoring.


Probably helps that they went into that game with the trade on such short notice that he was likely no where in the game plan or film sessions until the day of the game. I think Harden will do well, but that was EXTREME lol. Dude killed it.


I remember this discussion with other Combo Guard types, esp. with TheBluest and Optimus who loved Harden coming out of the draft.

My thing is this: Harden is a good player better than Westbrook but not worth 16mil per year.

I also saw some funny body language from Lin during that game. He is not buying in because he was supposed to be the featured Guard. Now Harden is constantly asking for the ball. I'm curious as to how this develops because they are very similar players in that both need the rock to be effective.
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#95 » by knicksnyk » Fri Nov 2, 2012 10:12 pm

Funny body language I didn't see any of that. I just saw this on twitter. It is a quote from Kevin McHale : “Let me tell you something, when we made that trade the guy (that) was most excited when I called up everybody and said we’re making the trade was Jeremy Lin. He was like, ‘Oh, thank goodness, coach.’ “

That doesn't sound like a guy that isn't buying in to me. Once again this notion that Lin can't play with a high volume scorer & is overly ball dominant has been blown away. He played perfectly fine with harden last night sharing the lead guard duties. Same with this notion that Lin is a product of Dantoni's system.
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#96 » by StutterStep » Fri Nov 2, 2012 10:18 pm

knicksnyk wrote:Funny body language I didn't see any of that. I just saw this on twitter. It is a quote from Kevin McHale : “Let me tell you something, when we made that trade the guy (that) was most excited when I called up everybody and said we’re making the trade was Jeremy Lin. He was like, ‘Oh, thank goodness, coach.’ “

That doesn't sound like a guy that isn't buying in to me. Once again this notion that Lin can't play with a high volume scorer & is overly ball dominant has been blown away. He played perfectly fine with harden last night sharing the lead guard duties. Same with this notion that Lin is a product of Dantoni's system.


I actually prefer Lin to Harden, and I'm no Lin-fanboy!!

Look at Lin's line and if you have a copy of the game, take another look at Lin's reaction the many times that Harden wanted the ball from him.

Why would Kevin McHale be making that statement unless someone questioned him on it?

The Rockets should have used that money on a dominant big, not a backcourt guy who's going to take the shots that Lin wants to take and make the passes (for assists) that he wants.
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#97 » by postcall » Fri Nov 2, 2012 10:25 pm

I dont know what people saw but it looked to me and the announcers and everyone else I talked to that those two guys played great together. Those two fed off each other, created great spacing and when one was out of the game the team collapsed. They both can create for themselves and others(Harden>>>>Lin). Lin will have better numbers overall with Harden than without and since they play a fast moving uptempo brand of offense with a lack of other scorers there will be plenty of shots for those two. I honestly think that Harden and Lin could play in any offense as they are both pretty unselfish players. That being said at best these guys are a first round exit.
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#98 » by knicksnyk » Fri Nov 2, 2012 10:27 pm

This is the video behind McHales statement. He wasn't pressed about it at all. i think you are reaching on the body language thing. I will try & re-watch the game tomorrow (watching Knicks & LAL tonight) & I will look for what you are suggesting.

http://www.nba.com/rockets/video/kevin-mchale-11022012

And no the rockets were brilliant getting harden. it relieves a lot of lead guard duties from Lin. you are right they do need a dominant pnr big & they have max cap room to sign another one i believe. but I think getting harden was a smart move. I am a huge harden fan & he deserved that money. him & lin compliment each other perfectly both elite pnr ball handlers & elite in isolation scoring. partner that up with a pnr big man & the rockets are good to go.
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#99 » by ibraheim718 » Fri Nov 2, 2012 10:37 pm

knicksnyk wrote:Funny body language I didn't see any of that. I just saw this on twitter. It is a quote from Kevin McHale : “Let me tell you something, when we made that trade the guy (that) was most excited when I called up everybody and said we’re making the trade was Jeremy Lin. He was like, ‘Oh, thank goodness, coach.’ “

That doesn't sound like a guy that isn't buying in to me. Once again this notion that Lin can't play with a high volume scorer & is overly ball dominant has been blown away. He played perfectly fine with harden last night sharing the lead guard duties. Same with this notion that Lin is a product of Dantoni's system.


Watched the whole game in HD... didn't notice "this funny body language" SS is talking about either.
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Re: James Harden at 80mil over 5 years 

Post#100 » by StutterStep » Fri Nov 2, 2012 10:42 pm

ibraheim718 wrote:
knicksnyk wrote:Funny body language I didn't see any of that. I just saw this on twitter. It is a quote from Kevin McHale : “Let me tell you something, when we made that trade the guy (that) was most excited when I called up everybody and said we’re making the trade was Jeremy Lin. He was like, ‘Oh, thank goodness, coach.’ “

That doesn't sound like a guy that isn't buying in to me. Once again this notion that Lin can't play with a high volume scorer & is overly ball dominant has been blown away. He played perfectly fine with harden last night sharing the lead guard duties. Same with this notion that Lin is a product of Dantoni's system.


Watched the whole game in HD... didn't notice "this funny body language" SS is talking about either.



How you watched the game does not matter. So, just go back and watch it now, and look for what I've just stated.

Lin was not happy on more than one occasion when Harden either brought the ball up or asked for it right after halfcourt.

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