Celtics @ Wizards - 11/3/12

[hands11]

payit

Ahh. we got it like that now. My bad. I guess I was tainted from past bickering. I get ya now.

As for the predicting more wins. You did do that. No denying that fact. We all had to take a stab at it with big questions unanswered. My real prediction was 32 to 42 with some serious ifs and buts. No Wall, Nene, or Kevin clear return time tables on a team with so many new plays made things really hard. If none of them made it back healthy, we are looking at a record worse them Charlotte last year. If all do return ahead of schedule like Kevin seems to have done, they could still see something near the upper estimates.

We got Kevin back and he looked awesome.
Now we need to know what's up with Nene. But even with no news on Nene, I want to see what Randy does with the line ups ( ie, Crawford starting..hopefully at PG) and I want to see if they go fetch Livingston.

A lot can still change with this team in just a week.

[hands11]

And you know this how ? I find it way more probable that it was Ted that decided how he was going to spend his money.

It is kind of amazing how people here so early decide that someone should just toss 20M, 40M, 60M out the window for nothing. At least try to walk a mile in the mans shoes.

And I find it outright absurd to believe that this was EGs call. I bring lots of proposals to the owner of my company. Some involve spending lots of money to buy out companies or make long term investment to hiring people. Never once has be come to me after I presented the opportunities and risk and rewards of doing one over another and he said.... You know, I'm not sure what I want to do with my money. You tell me and I will do what you suggest. He is the owner. He always makes the final decision when it comes to his money and his company. Then I adapt to what he decides and try to make lemonade out of it.

Ernie does please his owner. He read that statement during Gun Gate very well. Drove that bus right over Gilbert because the Pollin family abhors guns…

hands, let us assume Ted Leonsis wanted to get SOMETHING and not just buy out Lewis. I have no idea what Ernie's take was. If I were in EGs shoes, I would have made the most compelling presentation that trading for those underachieving players would be worse than buying out Lewis and buying cheap help who would outperform them. I would have put together several scenarios of which FAs the Wizards could acquire.

Might not have worked. I don't do a good job of telling people what they want to hear. Unlike EG, I can't keep my job if I am required to be disingenuous or duplicitous or a sycophant over long periods of time. I will be honest, I had a boss who disagreed with my methods and seemed to hate my guts. Like Abe Pollin getting money from MJ, this boss did get the rewards of my efforts after he ran me off, too.

hands, I think Ted wanted to get two guys who have won instead of nothing for Rashard Lewis. I think a competent NBA General Manager should have been in place to tell the owner he agreed with that premise, but not the price tag of Okafor and Ariza. The value of time being two years of them vs two years of young guys PLAYING and learning by trial and effort should have been part of the calculus presented to the billionaire owner.

If Ted just needs his ego stroked, then by all means, stick with a dude like EG.

As far as what Ariza and Okafor offer, they can become quality reserves if Nene gets healthy and if Webster clearly outperforms Trevor Ariza. Both guys have a bit of game and both have championship rings from other clubs they helped. Okafor is a genius by all accounts. Hard worker and quality human being from all reports. Trevor Ariza was on fire from three in the NBA Finals as a member of the Lakers. He is a terrific passer and he is long. He can finish and he can get a lot of steals. His shot is up and down, though. But he can be decent. Ariza did well the first game. It is too early to say they won't help.

That said, putting them on this roster and pushing minutes back for others, while still being at best mediocre--this is something the GM should have forecast if the owner was determined to make that deal. I would not be a yes man to my boss if I thought he was making a CRAP decision.

But that is really what it comes down to. I remember going round and round with this in the past.

We all make assumptions on a smaller details of how things played out regarding what EG may have said to Ted or what Ted said to EG. But the macro frame work is what it is. It is Ted who decides how his money is spent.

Lets say EG actually made a solid presentation for why to buy out Lewis. And lets say Ted just didn't want to do it. Then what ? Should EG have quit ? That was an option. But NBA GM jobs are hard to come by. So no, I don't think it is reasonable to expect him to do that. What I would expect him to do is to go find a deal for the Lewis contract.

What I keep asking and I am asking honestly because I know I don't keep up with all the details of who is available and when like some here do, what better deal was there out there. What player or players could we have gotten for that Lewis contract.

Once we have some of those, then we can actually track them and see which deal may have been better.

[montestewart]

[hands11]

mhd, I think Crawford and Booker do care and they do give 100%. I love Crawford's swagger. I like that he seems to be trying to lead by example for Beal, who at 19 is 5 years younger.

I don't think he's established or a good enough shooter to be a great leader for Beal; but I will be VERY happy if Crawford keeps playing well. Just because I haven't liked his game or his propensity for shot jacking in the past doesn't mean I won't welcome good play from Jordan Crawford in the future.

I won't give the Wizards a pass for having those two the only options at SG, however.

CCJ

I think what Crawford has available to teach Beal is independent of his outside shot. I think what he has available to teach him is fearlessness and effort. Crawford may not be a perfect player but he does have that stuff. And I think Crawford handles, passing ability and willingness to drive will make things a lot easier on Beal. I can imagine in my mind a play where Crawford prods the D, drives and finds Beal open for a 3. I can even see Crawford passing it and getting in his ear yelling... take them to the hoop.

I think Crawford is that kind of guy. I also think he sees the writing on the Wall. Its Wall and Beal that are projected to be the 1 & 2 starters for this team. If he wants to be a part of this teams future, he needs to carve out a spot as the back up for both of them or maybe just a back up 2. If he does a really good job of doing that, then maybe he gets a shot starting for another team in 1-2-3 years because that is how long the Wizards have him signed for. Or maybe he is happy here and he finds his place on the team getting 20 minutes coming off the bench and a starter when there is an injury.

But for now, I hope Crawford is finding a way to bound with Beal and I hope this is the relationship that is getting developed. Because Beal with some Crawford swag could become a very good player.

[The Consiglieri]

Regarding the way the game ended coach Whitt said:

“I was searching to find a go-to guy in that situation,” Coach Randy Wittman said after his team dropped to 0-2. “We just don’t have that now.”

I've been saying this the last two drafts

You have to admire (through tears) the bluntness of the assessment.

what horrifies me? We're four seasons+ into the what should have been the rebuild and it appears we've blown 2 of four drafts entirely, all loaded with top 5 picks and more, and in the other two drafts we may or may not have landed a legit franchise point guard, and we appear to have landed a good 2 guard, with the potential to be very good. That's it in terms of franchise players. Thats pathetic.

What makes me happy? This team is gonna blow this year horribly, even worse than I thought, and i suspect we'll get one more quality lottery bullet to try and land a difference maker before we drift to milwaukee bucksland where we draft basically good backups, and mediocre starters and get 7th-9th place finishes at seasons end in conference.

I don't know how to think, i just know our stiatuionw ould be even worse if this team was sub-mediocre instead of horrible. I'll take the losses for one more role of the dice in may, because as built, this team will never make it to the conference finals, let alone a chance at an nba title run no matter how they sign.

[The Consiglieri]

Regarding the way the game ended coach Whitt said:

“I was searching to find a go-to guy in that situation,” Coach Randy Wittman said after his team dropped to 0-2. “We just don’t have that now.”

I've been saying this the last two drafts

You have to admire (through tears) the bluntness of the assessment.

what horrifies me? We're four seasons+ into the what should have been the rebuild and it appears we've blown 2 of four drafts entirely, all loaded with top 5 picks and more, and in the other two drafts we may or may not have landed a legit franchise point guard, and we appear to have landed a good 2 guard, with the potential to be very good. That's it in terms of franchise players. Thats pathetic.

What makes me happy? This team is gonna blow this year horribly, even worse than I thought, and i suspect we'll get one more quality lottery bullet to try and land a difference maker before we drift to milwaukee bucksland where we draft basically good backups, and mediocre starters and get 7th-9th place finishes at seasons end in conference.

I don't know how to think, i just know our stiatuionw ould be even worse if this team was sub-mediocre instead of horrible. I'll take the losses for one more role of the dice in may, because as built, this team will never make it to the conference finals, let alone a chance at an nba title run no matter how they sign.

[The Consiglieri]

Just watched the game. Only thought is...Ernie Grunfeld must feel like a complete idiot. Nobody figured he could do worse than the Miller / Foye trade, but we underestimated him yet again. This Ariza / Okafor trade, for 2 players we didn't need, have bad contracts, and are just plain bad basketball players, is his worst move yet, BY FAR. My god words cannot describe the magnitude of this abomination. How long are stuck with these guys for? I can't imagine any other GM being dumb enough to trade for either of these guys again.

There is no curse of Les Boulez. It's the curse of Grunseldan (Grunfeld / Unseld / Jordan).

Its not even close to his worst trade by far. Miller Foye cost us a rebuilding asset that could have been a franchise player (rubio, as some of us wanted), instead we got a pile of manure dumped on our sidewalk. The two piles of garbage we acquired this summer only cost us cap space, and flexibility. Assets to be sure, but assets that weren't getting us a role of the dice on a potential franchise player (who was coming here, really?!?!). The '09 trade was a colossal unforgiveable clusterflutch of a trade, a grand mal moron trade that will be mentioned like the smoltz and schilling trades in baseball, as an all decade horrific deal, the okafor/ariza deal is just a crappy dumb deal. A team does something like that every second or third year. combined, it is absolutely stunning to realize that this guy has been allowed to destroy our cap with moronic signings, destroy our rebuild with a horrible avoid the rebuild trade, and then destroy the completion of rebuild by a quick fix trade. You couldn't make this crap up if you tried, as if the city of d.c. wasn't punished enough with snyder, and now game 5 (not to mention game 6 against the rangers in may, or basically the entire capitals history of 2 game leads and chokes (7 in 24 years) for the nats?!?!?!

They say God hates Cleveland? Well its starting to feel like god doesnt like DC much either. Jeeze.

[The Consiglieri]

What kind of an idiot trades for those two when their performance curves indicated "the only reason they are starters is because of their contracts?"

Ernie in effect shopped online from the New Orlean's Hornets used car lot and paid top dollar for two cars. Ernie didn't care about the Carfax report. He didn't care about one being well over 100k miles. No test drive, even though one car takes an eternity to go from 0 to 60, and the other has a disturbing rattling noise, and a lot of smoke coming from the engine. Ernie just bought on the premise that others have paid good money on these high maintenance vehicles and so will he.

Those two players have been (edited) complacent and underperforming relative to their salary for years. Denny Green would say they are who we thought they were.

Praise one thing CCJ. For once we have a situation where our coach appears unwilling to give a damn whether or not he should give starters minutes to the players his GM moronically saddled him with. That's awesome. At least through 2 games anyway, i love that Ariza and Okafor have been glued to the bench for better options when those options were available.

[willbcocks]

To be fair, although we SHOULD be 4+ years into the rebuild, in 2009 we tried to reload and make the playoffs. That was a horrible mistake that was capped by the worst trade in recent NBA history.

Our actual rebuilding process began after gungate, so just under 3 years ago.

[dobrojim]

good comments BobbyD

was at the game too and was offended enough to hear the let's go Celtics chant
that I immediately and to the chagrin (like I care) of nearby BOS fans started a counter-chant
Bos-ton sucks. BTW - I like the guys in the row behind us. Good fans.

Capt Obvious says the starters have to change, especially Ariza must sit until he shows
he can do some worthwhile things on the court. I would not particularly care for the message
it would send if Booker didn't keep starting while Nene is out.

I'm not as pessimistic as some re Okafor. He hasn't been good at all yet but his career
has been much better than the past 2 games. My guess is he starts playing better pretty soon.

Beal is 19 and 2 games into his career and playing without our best set up man Wall.
Agree with those who say he might be well served by coming off the bench.
(big IF) Crawford improves his efficiency, he's a solid rotation player. So far
it appears he has taken baby steps towards that end.

Not sure if BOS deserves to be considered so highly in the EC. If they do, then
we're actually a couple healthy players away from being right there. No question
in my mind we can beat BOS with a healthy Wall and Nene. That said,
early season looks say there is a lot of parity in the league right now.
Could be small sample size, or that could simply change as the
teams start to figure out each other.

I would go with this starting lineup while we wait to get healthy -
KSera
Booker
CSing (or Martel or Martin) NOT Ariza.
Crawford
Price

Okafor, Ves, Beal, SFs not named Ariza would be my main bench guys
along with Pargo. I wouldn't be shocked to see us beat BOS up there.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

mhd, I think Crawford and Booker do care and they do give 100%. I love Crawford's swagger. I like that he seems to be trying to lead by example for Beal, who at 19 is 5 years younger.

I don't think he's established or a good enough shooter to be a great leader for Beal; but I will be VERY happy if Crawford keeps playing well. Just because I haven't liked his game or his propensity for shot jacking in the past doesn't mean I won't welcome good play from Jordan Crawford in the future.

I won't give the Wizards a pass for having those two the only options at SG, however.

CCJ

I think what Crawford has available to teach Beal is independent of his outside shot. I think what he has available to teach him is fearlessness and effort. Crawford may not be a perfect player but he does have that stuff. And I think Crawford handles, passing ability and willingness to drive will make things a lot easier on Beal. I can imagine in my mind a play where Crawford prods the D, drives and finds Beal open for a 3. I can even see Crawford passing it and getting in his ear yelling... take them to the hoop.

I think Crawford is that kind of guy. I also think he sees the writing on the Wall. Its Wall and Beal that are projected to be the 1 & 2 starters for this team. If he wants to be a part of this teams future, he needs to carve out a spot as the back up for both of them or maybe just a back up 2. If he does a really good job of doing that, then maybe he gets a shot starting for another team in 1-2-3 years because that is how long the Wizards have him signed for. Or maybe he is happy here and he finds his place on the team getting 20 minutes coming off the bench and a starter when there is an injury.

But for now, I hope Crawford is finding a way to bound with Beal and I hope this is the relationship that is getting developed. Because Beal with some Crawford swag could become a very good player.

hands, I'm shifting on Crawford. I agree with what you're saying. Crawford can teach Beal pretty much everything but how hit outside shots. I remember how bad DeShawn's shot was the year he kept playing through a back injury. I always admired DeShawn's fearlessness. He HATED Lebron and that he wasn't intimidated going against possibly the GOAT player, impressed me. I knew Stevenson had no quit in him.

Crawford has swagger. He has a mindset I can't help but admire because NOBODY could tell him he's not that good. By the time all is said and done, who knows but that Crawford won't have a career that resembles Stevenson's. Lot of years in the league and a lot of earnings, is what DeShawn has. Charles Barkley's phrase "Every team needs a crazy guy" seems to ring true to me. DeShawn has a ring and he's starting on a surprisingly good ATL team.

Not to say anything's wrong with Jordan Crawford, but I didn't miss his Michael Jordan quote. Dudes like Crawford end up with the hottest women on earth. Can't tell them they have no game and they don't even worry about their looks. I had a fraternity brother like that. I couldn't believe they fell for it but they did. Some guys have it like that.

Beal has his own swagger but he's just young. I don't see Crawford being a bad influence, as I think about it. hands, I think I'm seeing where Crawford COULD help Beal, as you say. We don't agree on much, but I agree … One of my sons seems to play very tentatively in youth sports. Seems to beat himself up if he misses a shot. In football you can almost see him thinking and trying not to make a mistake. He's worried about who's looking at times. While that is normal, I try to convince him it's not the shots you make but more which shot are you willing to take. When he practices, I'm getting him to see you have to miss some to learn how to make some. After you've missed a bunch if you learn as you go, you start making more. Never beat yourself up. Even if you're dogging it evaluate why.

I digress …. Crawford is the anti-Beal, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[maljanNBAfan]

To be fair, although we SHOULD be 4+ years into the rebuild, in 2009 we tried to reload and make the playoffs. That was a horrible mistake that was capped by the worst trade in recent NBA history.

Our actual rebuilding process began after gungate, so just under 3 years ago.

Nicely said. People forget that rebuilding is not an overnight thing. It takes time. Years. Think about other NBA teams, as well as other teams in other sports for that matter, that have had to go through a rebuilding process. You can't really estimate just how long rebuilding takes, as it varies for every team, but patience is a key thing to remember.

[miller31time]

To be fair, although we SHOULD be 4+ years into the rebuild, in 2009 we tried to reload and make the playoffs. That was a horrible mistake that was capped by the worst trade in recent NBA history.

Our actual rebuilding process began after gungate, so just under 3 years ago.

Nicely said. People forget that rebuilding is not an overnight thing. It takes time. Years. Think about other NBA teams, as well as other teams in other sports for that matter, that have had to go through a rebuilding process. You can't really estimate just how long rebuilding takes, as it varies for every team, but patience is a key thing to remember.

We don't have a problem with patience. We have a problem with management and ownership.

I'm fine with a long-term rebuilding plan so long as it is done correctly with the right kind of personnel. What we did last off-season is what teams that are serious about rebuilding the right way simply don't do. We traded for 2 overpriced, redundant players -- players that didn't make us noticeably better (and you could make a really good, hard-hitting argument that we are actually worse). The future moves that a rebuilding team would be able to make are no longer available to us because of the sudden lack of cap flexibility. Oh yeah, and we gave up a pick while the Hornets were busy taking advantage of us.

Wizards fans, more than anyone else, have patience but there's nothing to patiently wait for because of the ineptitude of Ted and Ernie.

[The Consiglieri]

To be fair, although we SHOULD be 4+ years into the rebuild, in 2009 we tried to reload and make the playoffs. That was a horrible mistake that was capped by the worst trade in recent NBA history.

Our actual rebuilding process began after gungate, so just under 3 years ago.

Nicely said. People forget that rebuilding is not an overnight thing. It takes time. Years. Think about other NBA teams, as well as other teams in other sports for that matter, that have had to go through a rebuilding process. You can't really estimate just how long rebuilding takes, as it varies for every team, but patience is a key thing to remember.

Oh I'm well aware of all these things, I just don't give the franchise a pass on trying to reload instead of reboot. The trade was idiotic, pure idiocy, quick fix stupidity. Arenas was having serious and repeated knee issues at this point, Butler was becoming tough start instead of tough juice, and Jamison had gone from subpar on defense to traffic cone defending. A respectable GM would have blown it up, a good owner would have fired the GM if he didn't. Neither happened and the first year of what should have been the rebuild not only didn't happen, the rebuild was sabotaged AND delayed and for no justifiable reason beyond denial.

Amusing to think about the worst trade ever comment. If you just listed the worst trades of the past 20 years, and it was based on most lopsided, rather than media stories, how many of the top 10 would we own, based on qualitative stupidity, and uselessness combined with quantitative distortious in how much value each side got in the trade.

Mark Price's 4 games for us for a first round pick: What is that value share? 90-10 against us?

Rasheed Wallace for Rod Strickland (and pieces): Value share 85-15 or 80-20 against us?

Chris Webber for Mitch Richmond: Value share 98-2 against us?

Ike Austin for Ben Wallace: What is the value share? 95-5 for Detroit?

#5 overall pick (Rubio) for a year of Mike Miller and Randy Foye: 97-3 for Minnesota?

I'm hard pressed to imagine there were any trades in the NBA in the past 20 years worst than the worst of these, and more than 5 that could equal it in a top 10 worst trades of the past 20 years.

We truly have accumulated more unconcscionable trades on our watch the past decade than any one team i can think of in all of sports combined. Indeed, I dont think I could think of 2 or 3 teams, who if combined, could match just how many franchise defining acts of stupidity multiple front offices have engaged in while sinking this franchise into ever widening depths of despair.

[hands11]

To be fair, although we SHOULD be 4+ years into the rebuild, in 2009 we tried to reload and make the playoffs. That was a horrible mistake that was capped by the worst trade in recent NBA history.

Our actual rebuilding process began after gungate, so just under 3 years ago.

2 games into year three. So two years if more accurate then three. Of which they were in both games at the end even though they started both with terrible line ups that sucked because we have not PG because Wall was developed an injury late in the summer which left them little time to adjust. And of which the second game we got Kevin back and he was dominant. Yes, Kevin that EG traded picks to move up to get. The same Kevin that more then half this board bailed on because he played like ass and fouled to much in his rookie year.

My God we have some over exaggerators on this board.

[hands11]

We don't agree on much, but I agree … One of my sons seems to play very tentatively in youth sports. Seems to beat himself up if he misses a shot. In football you can almost see him thinking and trying not to make a mistake. He's worried about who's looking at times. While that is normal, I try to convince him it's not the shots you make but more which shot are you willing to take.


CCJ

Funny thing is, when I first started posting here, we saw things more eye to eye. Actually, I found our views to me more in common then other posters here. And actually we still agree on a good bit. This is a good example.

As for what you are teaching. You are spot on. Your son is lucky to have a father teaching him stuff like that. Its CB logic. You have to go all out every play. And the ones you don't make. Forget about them instantly. Not time to worry about that because there is another play to make and you have to approach it like you are 100 percent sure you are going to make it. If you aren't, you need to practice and study harder until you feel you are prepared enough to believe you are going to make the play. You do that work after the game.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

What kind of an idiot trades for those two when their performance curves indicated "the only reason they are starters is because of their contracts?"

Ernie in effect shopped online from the New Orlean's Hornets used car lot and paid top dollar for two cars. Ernie didn't care about the Carfax report. He didn't care about one being well over 100k miles. No test drive, even though one car takes an eternity to go from 0 to 60, and the other has a disturbing rattling noise, and a lot of smoke coming from the engine. Ernie just bought on the premise that others have paid good money on these high maintenance vehicles and so will he.

Those two players have been (edited) complacent and underperforming relative to their salary for years. Denny Green would say they are who we thought they were.

Praise one thing CCJ. For once we have a situation where our coach appears unwilling to give a damn whether or not he should give starters minutes to the players his GM moronically saddled him with. That's awesome. At least through 2 games anyway, i love that Ariza and Okafor have been glued to the bench for better options when those options were available.

That much is promising, Consiglieri.

I believe Mack was Wittman's only transgression. Shelvin is a playmaker. One thing a playmaker can do is set up scorers. Wittman has no go-to guy at the end of games because his PGs are primarily shoot-first players. The GM and/or Wittman decided on Price and Pargo over Mack. I think that was the wrong call. Mack outplayed Pargo in preseason. Shelvin was an effective backup and a good defender last season. I think all things being equal, Shelvin should be the one who has glued a veteran PG to the bench.

Pargo and Price can each hit a big shot, but they are neither facilitators or go-to guys. At least Mack can facilitate and not turn it over without shooting the team out of games. Consiglieri, I like Wittman's approach and candor a lot but I think he and Sam Cassell were dead wrong about Shelvin.

[dobrojim]

For the record, Ben Wallace was traded to ORL, not DET. He went to DET
in the Grant Hill trade which ended up being HORRIBLE for ORL in a case
when one might have thought they won the trade having received clearly
the best player.

[The Consiglieri]

thanks, my memory was sketchy as it didn't feel right saying detroit, but i wasn't really feeling the idea of digging around for it.