The size issue - We need a "Big lineup" option

[diablerouge]

kenyon martin just got hit with a reality check and is willing to take the minimum now. i'd sign him up to back up bosh for sure!

[Mars]

Wonder if this old dust up plays any role in why the Heat hasn't made a real push for Kenyon the past two seasons...

Mourning and Martin Nearly Come to Blows at Practice

By STEVE POPPER and LEE JENKINS
Published: November 21, 2003

After a draining practice session, Alonzo Mourning and half of the Nets team, mostly second-unit players, were making their way through the final strides of a set of suicide drills, punishment for losing a contest to the rest of the team Thursday at the Champion Center, the team's practice facility. As Mourning trudged to the finish behind his teammates, already unhappy, he heard laughter from the players who were watching.

Mourning snapped in reaction to the frustration of the drills, the team's troubles on the court and the cavalier attitude he has perceived during the Nets' 5-6 start this season. Mourning stalked over to where the players were laughing and, in a profanity-laden diatribe, shouted in part: ''This ain't funny. This is about winning.''

Richard Jefferson, a third-year forward who was one of the players who were laughing, told Mourning that indeed it wasn't funny, it was ''hilarious.''

When Kenyon Martin, a fourth-year forward, jumped in by mocking Mourning's recent performance on the court and commenting that Mourning would not have to run if he would improve his rebounding, Mourning attacked Martin's leadership and toughness.

Mourning, who signed with the Nets this summer after kidney disease cost him all of last season and nearly the entire 2000-1 season, told Martin: ''At least I'm out there on the court, not in the training room. I'm trying to make the best of my time.''

''You can't be a leader in the trainer's room crying, 'My ankle, my ankle,' '' Mourning added, referring to the sprained ankle that sidelined Martin for five games. Martin responded by mocking Mourning, muttering, ''My kidney, my kidney.''

Mourning did not immediately react to that comment. But when the players separated into groups for the next part of practice, he suddenly charged toward Martin before being restrained by teammates as he yelled, using more profanity: ''What did you say about my kidney? Don't talk about my kidney. I'll put you on your back.''

Teammates halted Mourning and kept him and Martin from getting close enough to come to blows...

Link

[RexBoyWonder]

Kenyon Martin can go **** himself, we dont need that scrub. just play the bigs we have, Mainly Jorts. he won't get better by seating on the bench. he's a 23 year old with real potenital. he needs minutes.

[Slot Machine]

I think that might be it, Mars. I posted pretty much the same thing in the Around the NBA thread.

And Rex, I would rather have K-Mart than Joel at this point. He could be our 3rd/4th big depending on how UD and Jorts play.

[AAAAA1]

I wanna see Jorts at the C spot with Bosh at PF.

Then Lebron
Wade
and Allen.

That's a long lineup, and Jorts seems extremely confident in himself.

[Mars]

I'm all for Spo loosening the leash and giving Jorts some minutes to see what he can offer. Big body, rebounding, strong court instincts, can pull opposing centers out of the paint. At the least he should get a trial run.

[EscapoTHB]

I'm fine with what we're doing. We have to be a gang rebounding team, and we have to move our feet on defense. The first three games I didn't see much defense being played, and the guys weren't committing to rebounding. Thought tonight they locked in on it against an okay frontline, and did the job.

I think the way we score by not playing big is going to be impossible for most of the league to deal with. most games Lebron probably won't even need to play the fourth quarters, which means he can put more effort on the boards.

Dude looks like a beast out there when he wants to be a rebounder. I swear he looks 6-10 sometimes

[bobly]

I don't see us solving our size issues anytime soon. Luckily I don't think it's going to be that much of an issue this season, but moving forward as our core declines athletically it's going to become a serious concern. I really wish Riley hadn't traded our pick away and decided to get Moultrie or take a risk on PJIII.

Anyways, looking is back pointless. I want to see how jorts can fit in as well, but I don't feel like he is going to end up earning any kind of significant playtime. Even if he establishes himself as a player that could be used in a "Big lineup" option I see Spoelstra having more confidence in a small ball lineup punishing a more traditional lineup. With Ray on the team now I feel like Spoelstra is more likely to double down on the shooting have Bosh shoot more from mid-range and near the arc.

No lineup we can field with a big can compensate for what we lose on offense and historically we have been great defensively inside anyways. The small ball lineup of Chalmers, Wade, Battier, James and Bosh posted a 53% rebound rate in 62 minutes last season (I could only find the regular season numbers) and while it may not sound impressive that is actually one of our better rebounding lineups. It only ranks behind playing Bosh and UD at the same time and obviously that is not as potent offensively.

I know this doesn't resolve any kind of defensive/rebounding reservations you may have about going against bigs, but ultimately we have a small team and that is how we have to play. If a series comes down us getting killed inside and not being able to consistently score from outside, then we probably would've lost anyways. If a situation comes up that warrants playing Jorts it'll probably be in a playoff series and then I assume it'll be too little too late.

Btw I will admit I wasn't able to see the Denver game, but the only problems i have observed so far seem to be on defense. Those defensive woes seem to be stemming from a lack of effort and focus more than anything size related. That same lack of effort could help explain the low Reb%. Currently we are 23rd place for total Reb% and in 16th in DReb% which is down from 12th and 10th place respectively last season. The huge difference is in our OReb% which so far this season has dropped 10 places from 19th to 29th. I'm not entirely sure where that drop off is coming from either. I'm a little too tired to keep looking up stats but it looked like Wade and the bench haven't matched their production from last season in this area. When you couple this Battier starting over Anthony or Haslem our offensive rebounding becomes a problem.

I assume that as effort improves so will defense. When the defense improves maybe not everyone will have to rush back and a few guys can stick around to hit the offensive glass.

[TheDon008]

LeBron: "They say we're too short or can't rebound or we need a big. We heard that and won a championship."

[Skip2MY]

Quick question... With the Melo rule in affect... If we trade for an expiring contract... What contract can we offer at the end of the season? (Melo rule is now you don't get the bird rights to offer a max deal if trade for an expiring mid season) but can we not offer them anything at the end of the season... Only reason I'm asking and here is because I'm thinking of a few bugs that could possibly fit our system... And that philly 1st may become very attractive if philly stays mediocre and slip out the playoffs.

[LewisnotMiller]

You guys are hot favourites to repeat regardless of a big lineup option, but I think it makes some sense to develop something, even if it's only for the regular season. Everyone here has talked about James not wanting to wear down, and being able to turn it on in the playoffs, and I concur.

But there is also Bosh to consider. You guys can go 'positionless' all you like (and I think Spo and the team have the balance figured out nicely now) but someone still has to bang in the post defensively, and you don't want that to be Bosh game in, game out.

Anyways...bigs are EXPENSIVE, and not easy to get. I am just bemused why you didn't draft Moultrie. Ezelis might be an even better fit, but even on draft day itself I assumed you'd keep Moultrie, and he made a lot of sense. No doubt in my mind he could make your roster, and whilst he won't decide a championship in any sense of the word, giving Bosh a little more of a chop-out might help him stay fresh and injury free.

And even if that doesn't matter this year, you have some old bigs who are limited (Haslem, Anthony) and Moultrie could offer something moving forwards. His skills and size seem to fit well as a smaller C or legit backup PF in your system.

[RexBoyWonder]

You guys are hot favourites to repeat regardless of a big lineup option, but I think it makes some sense to develop something, even if it's only for the regular season. Everyone here has talked about James not wanting to wear down, and being able to turn it on in the playoffs, and I concur.

But there is also Bosh to consider. You guys can go 'positionless' all you like (and I think Spo and the team have the balance figured out nicely now) but someone still has to bang in the post defensively, and you don't want that to be Bosh game in, game out.

Anyways...bigs are EXPENSIVE, and not easy to get. I am just bemused why you didn't draft Moultrie. Ezelis might be an even better fit, but even on draft day itself I assumed you'd keep Moultrie, and he made a lot of sense. No doubt in my mind he could make your roster, and whilst he won't decide a championship in any sense of the word, giving Bosh a little more of a chop-out might help him stay fresh and injury free.

And even if that doesn't matter this year, you have some old bigs who are limited (Haslem, Anthony) and Moultrie could offer something moving forwards. His skills and size seem to fit well as a smaller C or legit backup PF in your system.

I too originally thought trading Moultrie was a mistake, but iv'ecomed to realize it was actually a smart move for 2 reasons :

1)His skillset isn't really what we need - he's not a good defender inspite of his size and athleticism, he's not a great outside shooter that can spread the floor in our "pace and space" offense, and he's not really ready for the spot light - he'll need a couple of seasons before he could really become a useful player in the NBA.

2)RASHARD LEWIS - i really liked it when we got him, and i like it even more after seeing him in the last games. he's basically what Moultrie is hoping to be (i doubt he'll ever be as good as Lewis), but he's a smart vet with a lot of experience that can help us RIGHT NOW.

It make no sense wasting our pick on a "Lewis Wannabe" when we can have the real Lewis in decent health.

Plus, we all need to remember that we didnt just lose our draft pick, we traded it. giving up Moultrie will net us the Sixers draft pick in the next draft - whice can be in the 15-18 range (hopefully). that's when will make our move, i expect us to go for a strong rebounder/defender type that is NBA ready. iv'e got a few prospects in mind, i'll probably start a thread about it soon enough.