ImageImageImageImageImage

Kevin Seraphin

Moderators: nate33, montestewart, LyricalRico

Zonkerbl
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 8,187
And1: 4,154
Joined: Mar 24, 2010
       

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1421 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Nov 8, 2012 1:47 am

KSera for MIP!
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.
User avatar
Limo
Sophomore
Posts: 161
And1: 3
Joined: Jun 30, 2008
Location: Paris
   

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1422 » by Limo » Thu Nov 8, 2012 3:33 pm

Those two last games against Boston (and the two first for Kevin) were interesting to watch. For the first time, Kevin's role's changed and he was the very first go-to-guy. Not an easy thing against a great defensive team but he seems to have learnt a lot.

He's already showed that he could play one on one against KG, play good defense against him. Twice, he's had a good starting game. With a double team, more pressure, it was harder and predictable. How to became a player in the shadow, putting 15-20pts anonymously and became the focal point in clutch time...

Before those games, it was a confidence issue, now he has to show and prove that he could be this go-to-guy, not only coming from nowhere but in money time when the defense is focused on him. Few players can manage it with constance and success. And he has to found to do it because without Néné and Wall there's not much talent in this team. That's a great experience for him. A lot of respect from his coach and teammates.

Now, he showed that he has problems with double team and I don't think at this point it's only an attention issue. Being able to pass the ball at the right moment, OK, but he did it twice, but when you're in the paint, you have to do the job before the double team comes. He seems static or trying to make his move at the post, maybe he could be more aggressive with his pivot foot to create space, moving the ball without dribbling. If the double team comes, it's harder for the defense to do it without foul. But he has to do it changing his natural pace. Being aggressive it's not only attacking the basket, it's being able to change rhythm, making fake, pump fake, false pass, and do all of these thing with a quick execution. Kevin seems a bit sloppy at time and his game is very predictable: "OK I have the ball, I like this spot, I'm balanced, I have good rhythm and confidence, yeah, two points", or "OK, look my ass, I like the paint, look how my hook is beautiful". The execution has to be quicker. He has confidence now, he needs to found another confidence in the execution to be less predictable. Maybe the pump fake is the key. Starting with a pump create space and could force a foul. Also, he has to learn to read faster the defense and see where is the open man; and he will need to pass the ball again, with confidence... It's better to take a bad shot than make a bad pass, with his shot and his confidence he has to to it now a bit faster, the double team will never come. Some times, he was a little shy taking a bad shot... well take the shot or lose the ball, if your shot is blocked, you can gain the rebound, that's not the worst scenario.

At the moment, Kevin has his confidence but he has to found a way to gain a total and permanent confidence from his teammates. Kevin is too polite, too shy. In this context, he has to be a leader, more aware, voluble. Because if he's not, the other team will try to steal the ball of his hand and contest his leadership. He has to impose himself, show some authority. Authority it's not only aggressiveness (not bad aggressiveness), it is showing that you're concerned, involved, and making things with confidence. It's not a shooting contest, he has to show who's the boss^^. Right now, other teams respect him, for his talent, but they should fear his presence, his aggressiveness and unpredictable - but right - choices. Talent is not everything. Right now he is a role player with a lot of talent, if he wants to be more than that he needs to stop to be the nice guy (you don't want another Boris Diaw right?). Aggressiveness without bad temper, with self-control, it's against his nature I would say (he can be angry but it will be the result of an injustice, a bad call, a response to someone else's behavior) but come on Kevin, just try or pretend you can do it^^.
User avatar
tontoz
RealGM
Posts: 18,365
And1: 3,825
Joined: Apr 11, 2005

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1423 » by tontoz » Thu Nov 8, 2012 3:45 pm

It is easier to handle a double team when you face up rather than have your back to the basket. When you face up your defender can't put his hand on your or it is a foul. Also when you face up you can see the whole floor and can see a double team coming.
"bulky agile perimeter bone crunch pick setting draymond green" WizD
User avatar
GhostsOfGil
General Manager
Posts: 8,506
And1: 899
Joined: Jul 06, 2006

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1424 » by GhostsOfGil » Thu Nov 8, 2012 3:46 pm

I have no data on this, but it seems like it takes a while for bigs to learn to pass out of the post effectively. I specifically remember Duncan struggling with this early in his career. It's just not something young guys ever have to practice before they have success in the NBA.
User avatar
pancakes3
General Manager
Posts: 9,123
And1: 2,604
Joined: Jul 27, 2003
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1425 » by pancakes3 » Thu Nov 8, 2012 4:15 pm

It's tough for Seraphin to handle double teams for a myriad of reasons. He's not tall, he's not used to it, he doesn't have great cutting teammates, he's playing against a good defensive team, and he's got extra motivation to be selfish and score on KG.
Bullets -> Wizards
veji1
Starter
Posts: 2,091
And1: 488
Joined: Apr 28, 2009

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1426 » by veji1 » Thu Nov 8, 2012 5:07 pm

great post Limo, I agree that Seraphin has been very mechanic. This is a young player who has been putting a tremendous amount of work to improve and know where to be on the floor, identify his spots and use them well. This helped him "slow the game" after a first year where everything was just going to fast.

Now he has a confort zone, he actually started having it when he played for the french team and Vittoria last year. This confort zone means that when he gets the ball in the right situation, he knows what to try to do with it and how to do it pretty effectively.

Of course step 2 is adapting to teams identifying your conforts zone and disrupting it. This what Boston did well here. Get him out of his grove, preventing him from executing his moves in the tempo he loves.

This is where indeed he will have to learn to be more aggressive, exploit the defense commiting to disrupting his play by deceiving it (ie you think I am starting a post up for the hook, quick turn around base-line/one dribble/attack the basket, etc...) getting the ball out or meeting it straight up (see the double coming, get in motion to get a foul from an unset defender, etc...).

Basically KS has perfected his moves, now the work starts on his counter-moves... If he can perfect that too than he becomes a very special player, Elton Brandish (well if he can get to the FT line as well). If he can't he will still be a good 4/5 with solid game but not able to be one of the very first options of his team.

One last point. For and inside-out game to work, you need to have efficient outside scorers as well. Give Serapin a Korver standing curling to get the ball out of the post and he can be a lot more efficient. Hopefully Beal can become one of those legit 38% 3PT shooters that open up the floor.
User avatar
PerkinsFor3
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,834
And1: 1,973
Joined: Nov 10, 2004
Contact:

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1427 » by PerkinsFor3 » Thu Nov 8, 2012 10:13 pm

If you ook at his current arsenal of moves on O, and him being ambidextrous... can you imagine what he'd look like after a summer with Hakeem?
hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1428 » by hands11 » Fri Nov 9, 2012 5:41 am

loot wrote:If you ook at his current arsenal of moves on O, and him being ambidextrous... can you imagine what he'd look like after a summer with Hakeem?


http://www.nba.com/wizards/video/2012/1 ... p4-2287276

Love the young guys on this team. Kevin is a cool young man.
veji1
Starter
Posts: 2,091
And1: 488
Joined: Apr 28, 2009

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1429 » by veji1 » Fri Nov 9, 2012 9:28 am

loot wrote:If you ook at his current arsenal of moves on O, and him being ambidextrous... can you imagine what he'd look like after a summer with Hakeem?


Look I love Hakeem and all, but it sounds like half of the league young big men have been working out with him or Kareem at some point and yet the result aren't impressive to say the least.

To me learning to trust his strength and just playing a more direct game is the first priority, than nifty counter moves are great too of course, but before he can master the pump and head fakes of the Dreem, he could usefully watch videos of Blake Griffin or Dwight Howard to see how to use his strength and speed better.
User avatar
PerkinsFor3
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,834
And1: 1,973
Joined: Nov 10, 2004
Contact:

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1430 » by PerkinsFor3 » Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:10 am

Look at some of the big men whoé worked with Hakeem: McGee, Aamare eetc.. Those guys dont have the right mindset. Given the way Serpahin caries himself, I think the influence a few weeks of trainign with Hakeem could have on him would be great.
veji1
Starter
Posts: 2,091
And1: 488
Joined: Apr 28, 2009

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1431 » by veji1 » Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:27 am

I get your point and true it could help. But I also think one has to be careful of not overloading his hard drive. I mean he is still young an Hakeem waited till his 30s to have all those polished moves in his arsenal. Seraphin is a willing worker so he will learn them eventually. But on the other hand it is much harder to change one's mindset later in one's carreer to become more aggressive. This is why i think the priority in training should be focussing on aggressivity. I want to see him dunk, not because dunks look good, but because by going for the dunk he gets fouled. Even if he commits more TOs and O fouls, aggressivity needs to be the priority on offense, the moves will come next.
dlts20
RealGM
Posts: 12,454
And1: 6,194
Joined: Dec 14, 2006

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1432 » by dlts20 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:20 pm

One problem Im really having with KS is he doesnt back down guys far enough. He has alot of Blatche in him when it comes to that, except its worst with KS because he's a very strong guy. It makes me mad to see how he easily accepts a pass way off the block. Thats the 1st problem. He needs to fight to get bettter position and stop accepting being pushed far out.

Then after catching it way out there. He's always going to take like only 1 or 2 dribbles and shoot some kinda turnaround shot, weather it be a hook or with 2 hands. Sometimes he needs to use his size to lean in for the shot. Go towards the basket instead of straight up. Everytime though, he needs to back down guys more. He's a huge body. Back those guys down and get closer. Dont just settle for that hook way out when you can back down these guys who dont have your strength
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 28,319
And1: 8,588
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1433 » by penbeast0 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:04 pm

I don't see Elton Brand, veji, but I do see -- of all people -- Nene. Good box out if not great rebounding, good post moves for high percentage, similar demeanor out there. I'd be pretty happy with a young, healthy, Nene out of Seraphin.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 66,785
And1: 19,072
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1434 » by nate33 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:20 pm

penbeast0 wrote:I don't see Elton Brand, veji, but I do see -- of all people -- Nene. Good box out if not great rebounding, good post moves for high percentage, similar demeanor out there. I'd be pretty happy with a young, healthy, Nene out of Seraphin.

Quick feet too.
User avatar
tontoz
RealGM
Posts: 18,365
And1: 3,825
Joined: Apr 11, 2005

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1435 » by tontoz » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:36 pm

I think his confidence took a hit during that 2nd Boston game. I think teams are going to make it tougher for him to get into his comfort zone to shoot the hook.

He needs to develop a face up game. He rarely faces a guy up and drives. If he can get that big body moving decisively towards the basket it will put a lot of pressure on the defense.
"bulky agile perimeter bone crunch pick setting draymond green" WizD
hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1436 » by hands11 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:10 am

Any chance we get to see the Kevin we all grow to have high hopes for again any time soon.

Three games of suckitood is getting kind of disheartening.
AWIZZINGBULLET
Rookie
Posts: 1,242
And1: 139
Joined: Apr 08, 2012
       

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1437 » by AWIZZINGBULLET » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:19 am

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
AWIZZINGBULLET wrote:I really get sick of some of the Wizards players and the way they'll react to a Kevin Seraphin mistake vs. another guy on the team. Really feel Seraphin is the team's whipping boy because of his personality and it makes me sick. Seraphin was clearly one of the team's bright spots all night yet the one error at the end causes Crawford to get demonstrative and essentially throw his teammate under the bus before everybody in the arena. Reactions like that have me wanting to see Crawford get traded away. Sometimes I wish Seraphin would grab a teammate by the throat and toss them into the third row.


You are feeling the same way I have felt about other players in the past.

Flip Saunders was the coach who came and started using the word "knucklehead" to refer to players.

When Gilbert Arenas became injured, veteran players who he had been carrying lashed out publicly about the habits of young players. One player nicknamed the "Leader of Men" couldn't guard his own shadow but he hated on the professionalism of Andray Blatche. While very true on Blatche, Antawn got to get killed with impunity. Want to know why Cleveland kept knocking the Wizards out of the playoffs each season? Jamison and Butler were never whipping boys but Varejao repeatedly whipped them (and whatever midget EJ played at C) on the boards in the fourth. Butler was never a whipping boy. He openly defied Flip Saunders when it came to not passing the ball and forcing shots. What Flip would do after losses is call out McGee. Javale has been vilified after being called out the same way the slow kid in school starts getting picked on by other children once the teacher lets the other kids know she can't stand that kid.

I think Kevin is from another culture and he's playing next to a bunch of idiots. Sure, they'll pick on his mistakes probably up until he knocks one of them out. The sooner the better IMO. I see the same thing with Jan Vesely. He's a whipping boy, too.

I can't stand rooting for this team at times because this team is too bad to be hazing anyone. Leave Beal alone and do nothing but praise his effort, while assuring him he will succeed and to keep working harder and believe in himself. They should do that with every player.

Ted and Ernie are fools. Wittman will have no meritocracy. Veterans who have big contracts will play and their mistakes will be ignored. In frustration, young players will be denigrated and traded away as their careers are hurt. Seraphin is going to be fine because he's a joyful, energetic, bull of a player. Classy, too.

I can't say that from the top down in the Wizards. EJ might not have been even a good coach but he was a class act. Firing him 11 games after he made the playoffs virtually without Gilbert and with NO FRONTCOURT HELP and with injuries is the thing a GM like Grunfeld would do. Then Ernie saved his own job. Then Ernie made mediocre, overpaying veterans, Ernie moves.

Now the young guys are dummies or knuckleheads or underperforming. Same old Wizards.


I know the guys like him, but Randy Wittman from a personality standpoint seems like a B.S.'er. He only has the heart to jump in Seraphin's face and it's pretty damn annoying. You said Vesely is a whipping boy? I don't see it. That guy doesn't get chewed out ever by Wittman the way Seraphin does and it's sickening. I think Wittman is a coward, always thought he was arrogant, but now I add coward to the list. Can you imagine the earful Seraphin (even with the offensive outburst he had) would've gotten had he been the guy to leave Chris Kaman wide open after the timeout and then deliver that love tap of a foul? I just get frustrated, he ought to talk to Seraphin with the same respect he does anyone else and stop picking and choosing who he sticks his chest out with and raises his voice at. Remember Vesely not Seraphin was picked 6th overall and has yet to really deliver. From what I can tell there are no superstars currently playing for the Wizards, so why does Seraphin get it while others get a pass?
AWIZZINGBULLET
Rookie
Posts: 1,242
And1: 139
Joined: Apr 08, 2012
       

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1438 » by AWIZZINGBULLET » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:20 am

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
AWIZZINGBULLET wrote:I really get sick of some of the Wizards players and the way they'll react to a Kevin Seraphin mistake vs. another guy on the team. Really feel Seraphin is the team's whipping boy because of his personality and it makes me sick. Seraphin was clearly one of the team's bright spots all night yet the one error at the end causes Crawford to get demonstrative and essentially throw his teammate under the bus before everybody in the arena. Reactions like that have me wanting to see Crawford get traded away. Sometimes I wish Seraphin would grab a teammate by the throat and toss them into the third row.


You are feeling the same way I have felt about other players in the past.

Flip Saunders was the coach who came and started using the word "knucklehead" to refer to players.

When Gilbert Arenas became injured, veteran players who he had been carrying lashed out publicly about the habits of young players. One player nicknamed the "Leader of Men" couldn't guard his own shadow but he hated on the professionalism of Andray Blatche. While very true on Blatche, Antawn got to get killed with impunity. Want to know why Cleveland kept knocking the Wizards out of the playoffs each season? Jamison and Butler were never whipping boys but Varejao repeatedly whipped them (and whatever midget EJ played at C) on the boards in the fourth. Butler was never a whipping boy. He openly defied Flip Saunders when it came to not passing the ball and forcing shots. What Flip would do after losses is call out McGee. Javale has been vilified after being called out the same way the slow kid in school starts getting picked on by other children once the teacher lets the other kids know she can't stand that kid.

I think Kevin is from another culture and he's playing next to a bunch of idiots. Sure, they'll pick on his mistakes probably up until he knocks one of them out. The sooner the better IMO. I see the same thing with Jan Vesely. He's a whipping boy, too.

I can't stand rooting for this team at times because this team is too bad to be hazing anyone. Leave Beal alone and do nothing but praise his effort, while assuring him he will succeed and to keep working harder and believe in himself. They should do that with every player.

Ted and Ernie are fools. Wittman will have no meritocracy. Veterans who have big contracts will play and their mistakes will be ignored. In frustration, young players will be denigrated and traded away as their careers are hurt. Seraphin is going to be fine because he's a joyful, energetic, bull of a player. Classy, too.

I can't say that from the top down in the Wizards. EJ might not have been even a good coach but he was a class act. Firing him 11 games after he made the playoffs virtually without Gilbert and with NO FRONTCOURT HELP and with injuries is the thing a GM like Grunfeld would do. Then Ernie saved his own job. Then Ernie made mediocre, overpaying veterans, Ernie moves.

Now the young guys are dummies or knuckleheads or underperforming. Same old Wizards.


I know the guys like him, but Randy Wittman from a personality standpoint seems like a B.S.'er. He only has the heart to jump in Seraphin's face and it's pretty damn annoying. You said Vesely is a whipping boy? I don't see it. That guy doesn't get chewed out ever by Wittman the way Seraphin does and it's sickening. I think Wittman is a coward, always thought he was arrogant, but now I add coward to the list. Can you imagine the earful Seraphin (even with the offensive outburst he had) would've gotten had he been the guy to leave Chris Kaman wide open after the timeout and then deliver that love tap of a foul? I just get frustrated, he ought to talk to Seraphin with the same respect he does anyone else and stop picking and choosing who he sticks his chest out with and raises his voice at. Remember, Vesely not Seraphin was picked 6th overall and has yet to really deliver. From what I can tell there are no superstars currently playing for the Wizards, so why does Seraphin get it while others get a pass?
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 52,610
And1: 8,968
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
       

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1439 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:15 pm

Don't worry, AWIZZINGBULLET, Seraphin will keep improving and Randy will be gone soon at this rate.
Bye bye Beal.
Zonkerbl
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 8,187
And1: 4,154
Joined: Mar 24, 2010
       

Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#1440 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:41 pm

Although, in Randy's defense, he's said in the past he gets in KS' face because he can take it.
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.

Return to Washington Wizards