Race to the MVP.

[og15]

I'd say it's James so far...22 ppg, 56% shooting, 10 rpg, 6 apg

Anthony = 27 ppg, 44% shooting, 7 rpg, 1.5 apg

Both playing good defense, but James is more dominant on that end.

thats a lie

Carmelo has a defensive rating of 97

LeBron has a defensive rating of 103

so how is James more dominant on that end, Carmelo also averages more blocks 1.2(CA)-0.8(LBJ) and steals(slightly)0.8(CA)-0.7(LBJ)

Not sure if you know how defensive rating works, but you can't just say this player has a lower defensive rating, therefore he is playing better on defense or is better on defense. It is based on your team, it's how many points the TEAM gives up per 100 posessions that you are on the floor. If you suck on defense, but your team is very good defensively, you will have a low defensive rating in comparison to a better defensive player on an inferior defensive team, but it will most likely be higher than your team defensive rating. This will mean that the team as a whole is bringing your defensive rating down.

EG: Ray Allen last season had a 102 DRtg, he wasn't as good of a defender as Lebron in 10-11 who also had a 102 DRtg. Boston as a team had a 98.2 DRtg, while Miami as a team in 10-11 had a 103.5 DRtg.

This isn't to say Carmelo hasn't been playing well defensively, or better than Lebron, but it is to squash any idea that you can compare defensive rating directly across teams to say one player is better or has more impact than the other there.

Lebron has a 103 DRtg, Miami as a team has a 105.3 DRtg, the team so far looks better on defense when he's on the floor based on that as he has a lower number than the team as a whole. They've been pretty poor so far on defense but have been insanely good on offense (115.5 ORtg, Lebron 126).

Carmelo has a 97 DRtg, New York as a team has a 95.7 DRtg. Based on the numbers, the team has defended better with Carmelo off the floor as his DRtg is higher than the team. There's other factors, we aren't discussing that right now, but just understand that you can't compare like that. As a whole, they have been GREAT on defense, and very good on offense, almost as good as Miami. (114.3 ORtg, Carmelo 109)

[arifgokcen]

I'd say it's James so far...22 ppg, 56% shooting, 10 rpg, 6 apg

Anthony = 27 ppg, 44% shooting, 7 rpg, 1.5 apg

Both playing good defense, but James is more dominant on that end.

thats a lie

Carmelo has a defensive rating of 97

LeBron has a defensive rating of 103

so how is James more dominant on that end, Carmelo also averages more blocks 1.2(CA)-0.8(LBJ) and steals(slightly)0.8(CA)-0.7(LBJ)

Defensive rating is one of the worst determining criterias for defense.Last year boozer's defensive rating was 95.2 which was 2nd best only behind KG

Blocks and steals wash because they didnt play enough.Anyway this early i dont think we can effectively say player a played better defense than player b.Lets wait and see

[TheGarden]

I'd say it's James so far...22 ppg, 56% shooting, 10 rpg, 6 apg

Anthony = 27 ppg, 44% shooting, 7 rpg, 1.5 apg

Both playing good defense, but James is more dominant on that end.

thats a lie

Carmelo has a defensive rating of 97

LeBron has a defensive rating of 103

so how is James more dominant on that end, Carmelo also averages more blocks 1.2(CA)-0.8(LBJ) and steals(slightly)0.8(CA)-0.7(LBJ)

Not sure if you know how defensive rating works, but you can't just say this player has a lower defensive rating, therefore he is playing better on defense or is better on defense. It is based on your team, it's how many points the TEAM gives up per 100 posessions that you are on the floor. If you suck on defense, but your team is very good defensively, you will have a low defensive rating in comparison to a better defensive player on an inferior defensive team, but it will most likely be higher than your team defensive rating. This will mean that the team as a whole is bringing your defensive rating down.

EG: Ray Allen last season had a 102 DRtg, he wasn't as good of a defender as Lebron in 10-11 who also had a 102 DRtg. Boston as a team had a 98.2 DRtg, while Miami as a team in 10-11 had a 103.5 DRtg.

This isn't to say Carmelo hasn't been playing well defensively, or better than Lebron, but it is to squash any idea that you can compare defensive rating directly across teams to say one player is better or has more impact than the other there.

Lebron has a 103 DRtg, Miami as a team has a 105.3 DRtg, the team so far looks better on defense when he's on the floor based on that as he has a lower number than the team as a whole. They've been pretty poor so far on defense but have been insanely good on offense (115.5 ORtg, Lebron 126).

Carmelo has a 97 DRtg, New York as a team has a 95.7 DRtg. Based on the numbers, the team has defended better with Carmelo off the floor as his DRtg is higher than the team. There's other factors, we aren't discussing that right now, but just understand that you can't compare like that. As a whole, they have been GREAT on defense, and very good on offense, almost as good as Miami. (114.3 ORtg, Carmelo 109)

my point was he said LeBron has been more dominant on that end but numbers say otherwise, and the sample size for them team performing "better" with Melo off the floor is skewed because he plays 36mpg, so 12 minutes with him off the floor vs the teams 2nd unit will most likely be lower. Fact is Carmelo is playing great defense

his main notion was LeBron has been more dominant on that end but I proved otherwise, but you make excellent points as well. But if we cant compare defensive rating from player to player then why is it fair to compare their stats or TS% or win shares

there's so much that goes into a game and I think we simplify it too much when we analyze the games played

[og15]

my point was he said LeBron has been more dominant on that end but numbers say otherwise, and the sample size for them team performing "better" with Melo off the floor is skewed because he plays 36mpg, so 12 minutes with him off the floor vs the teams 2nd unit will most likely be lower. Fact is Carmelo is playing great defense

his main notion was LeBron has been more dominant on that end but I proved otherwise, but you make excellent points as well. But if we cant compare defensive rating from player to player then why is it fair to compare their stats or TS% or win shares

there's so much that goes into a game and I think we simplify it too much when we analyze the games played

TS% and basic stats are a fairly different from directly comparing defensive rating, you do realize that I hope. You can't directly compare defensive rating because it isn't measuring anything that is just the player, it's based on how the team performs. It's simplistic to just say this defensive rating lower than this other = better, that's why I said there's analysis such as needing to compare to the players team. TS% is a little easier to compare, especially comparing players who have similar roles and defensive attention.

No who isn't dumb will go around comparing 36 year old spot up shooting Ray Allen's TS% to a guy that is a first option and trying to make some point about that.

[TheGarden]

my point was he said LeBron has been more dominant on that end but numbers say otherwise, and the sample size for them team performing "better" with Melo off the floor is skewed because he plays 36mpg, so 12 minutes with him off the floor vs the teams 2nd unit will most likely be lower. Fact is Carmelo is playing great defense

his main notion was LeBron has been more dominant on that end but I proved otherwise, but you make excellent points as well. But if we cant compare defensive rating from player to player then why is it fair to compare their stats or TS% or win shares

there's so much that goes into a game and I think we simplify it too much when we analyze the games played

TS% and basic stats are a fairly different from directly comparing defensive rating, you do realize that I hope. You can't directly compare defensive rating because it isn't measuring anything that is just the player, it's based on how the team performs. It's simplistic to just say this defensive rating lower than this other = better, that's why I said there's analysis such as needing to compare to the players team. TS% is a little easier to compare, especially comparing players who have similar roles and defensive attention.

No who isn't dumb will go around comparing 36 year old spot up shooting Ray Allen's TS% to a guy that is a first option and trying to make some point about that.

yeah but TS%, FG% doesn't tell us the type of shots a player takes, how many no calls that player receives, late heaves with the shot clock running down, forced shots

remember LeBron sees less double teams than Carmelo because he plays with 2 other dominant scorers and a plethora of shooters

thats why when people complain about Carmelo's FG% and TS% they fail to realize he sees different looks than a LeBron or Durant

[mademan]

Lebron's ts% has stayed the same from Cleavland to Miami (give or take 1 or 2 percentage). Lebron's efficiency has been consistently great throughout his prime. Carmelo's efficiency has been consistent;y mediocre through his prime. It's not that he sees different looks, it's that he takes worse shots because he's not as good.

[TheGarden]

Lebron's ts% has stayed the same from Cleavland to Miami (give or take 1 or 2 percentage). Lebron's efficiency has been consistently great throughout his prime. Carmelo's efficiency has been consistent;y mediocre through his prime. It's not that he sees different looks, it's that he takes worse shots because he's not as good.

smh

[og15]

my point was he said LeBron has been more dominant on that end but numbers say otherwise, and the sample size for them team performing "better" with Melo off the floor is skewed because he plays 36mpg, so 12 minutes with him off the floor vs the teams 2nd unit will most likely be lower. Fact is Carmelo is playing great defense

his main notion was LeBron has been more dominant on that end but I proved otherwise, but you make excellent points as well. But if we cant compare defensive rating from player to player then why is it fair to compare their stats or TS% or win shares

there's so much that goes into a game and I think we simplify it too much when we analyze the games played

TS% and basic stats are a fairly different from directly comparing defensive rating, you do realize that I hope. You can't directly compare defensive rating because it isn't measuring anything that is just the player, it's based on how the team performs. It's simplistic to just say this defensive rating lower than this other = better, that's why I said there's analysis such as needing to compare to the players team. TS% is a little easier to compare, especially comparing players who have similar roles and defensive attention.

No who isn't dumb will go around comparing 36 year old spot up shooting Ray Allen's TS% to a guy that is a first option and trying to make some point about that.

yeah but TS%, FG% doesn't tell us the type of shots a player takes, how many no calls that player receives, late heaves with the shot clock running down, forced shots

remember LeBron sees less double teams than Carmelo because he plays with 2 other dominant scorers and a plethora of shooters

thats why when people complain about Carmelo's FG% and TS% they fail to realize he sees different looks than a LeBron or Durant

Lebron is more efficient than Carmelo no matter what, that's not really in debate right now as we've had a good amount of years to determine that. Things like no calls, forced shots, late shot clock heaves are generally going to balance themselves out over a large sample size. Unless there's some sort of evidence that Carmelo is receiving a significant amount of no calls, or taking significantly more late heaves which I don't believe there is, then those are really irrelevant.

If Carmelo is taking more forced shots, does that mean that the team he's on is causing him to do that, or that he can't create as many good looks for himself as Lebron can?

Honestly, I didn't want to debate Lebron vs Carmelo because I don't think anyone is arguing who is better between Lebron and Carmelo, since it is obvious, but Carmelo and the Knicks are doing well so far. Just wanted to point out that the means of comparing defense is not accurate.

[TheGarden]

Lebron is more efficient than Carmelo no matter what, that's not really in debate right now as we've had a good amount of years to determine that. Things like no calls, forced shots, late shot clock heaves are generally going to balance themselves out over a large sample size. Unless there's some sort of evidence that Carmelo is receiving a significant amount of no calls, or taking significantly more late heaves which I don't believe there is, then those are really irrelevant.

If Carmelo is taking more forced shots, does that mean that the team he's on is causing him to do that, or that he can't create as many good looks for himself as Lebron can?

Honestly, I didn't want to debate Lebron vs Carmelo because I don't think anyone is arguing who is better between Lebron and Carmelo, since it is obvious, but Carmelo and the Knicks are doing well so far. Just wanted to point out that the means of comparing defense is not accurate.

it was never an argument of who's better(LeBron is) or who's more efficient(LeBron is) but the argument that their numbers dont really tell the story between their careers

Example- late in the shot clock, Carmelo gets the ball 5-8 seconds left and makes a move, double comes but Melo still takes the shot(thats his nature), LeBron same scenario makes a move sees the double but makes the pass(thats his nature)

Its hard to compare a 6'8 Point Guard, LeBron is not a 3 never has been ,never will, to a Lethal scorer.

Also the no call situation is completely different. Carmelo rarely gets the "superstar" call, LeBron gets a ton of touch fouls, 50/50 calls and "superstar" calls. I think Carmelo takes more of a beating than LeBron

There's just so much that goes into their games and styles and people will always use LeBron as a case study for Carmelo but they are nothing alike

Back to the MVP discussion, I still feel Carmelo is #1 because from last year to this year I have seen a bigger step in Carmelo's game than LeBron's and if anyone says LeBron is just coasting then thats another reason Carmelo should be #1

[og15]

That's the smart basketball play though, Camelo is just not as smart of a basketball player, and Lebron doesn't always pass up those shots, yet people still say it. The numbers show that he takes a huge amount of last second, late clock, all those shots. Also, as much as Carmelo is called the lethal scorer, Lebron does just as much or more scoring than him year in and year out. Lebron is both the capable PG, and is the more lethal scorer, that's what makes him so special.

Yea, Carmelo can be #1, but ago don't even get why people get into any serious debate about this after the amount of games being played, but honestly, Tim Duncan with the Spurs at 6-1, and his 18.9 pts' 9.7 Rebs, 2.4 assists, 1.4 steals and 2.4 blocks in 30.1 MPG along with a .586 TS% and a 28.9 PER might have the best two week case for MVP.

[TheGarden]

That's the smart basketball play though, Camelo is just not as smart of a basketball player, and Lebron doesn't always pass up those shots, yet people still say it. The numbers show that he takes a huge amount of last second, late clock, all those shots. Also, as much as Carmelo is called the lethal scorer, Lebron does just as much or more scoring than him year in and year out. Lebron is both the capable PG, and is the more lethal scorer, that's what makes him so special.

Yea, Carmelo can be #1, but ago don't even get why people get into any serious debate about this after the amount of games being played, but honestly, Tim Duncan with the Spurs at 6-1, and his 18.9 pts' 9.7 Rebs, 2.4 assists, 1.4 steals and 2.4 blocks in 30.1 MPG along with a .586 TS% and a 28.9 PER might have the best two week case for MVP.

Scoring- like I said there's much more than meets the eye and you cant look at PPG and FG% and justify who does what. Forever now Carmelo has been called the best scorer in the game

Duncan- Agreed Duncan is doing a great job this year and has a say in this debate no doubt

fact is many people have their cases, I just get bothered by the James and Durant are the only 2 who can win it and have any say in the debate. I blame the media

[devv83]

Garden... man chill out It's only been four games. Melo looking good, but as a Melo fan he always does this, then he fizzles out. Give it some time, if Melo is playing this good after awhile he will get his recognition.

Melo is my guy but he needs to prove that he is elite consistently, everyone knows he can go on stretches. He just need to do it all season long. No need in arguing with everyone over 4 games.

[Tien]

Lebron and Durant are proven winners. Melo has gotten out of 1st round once in his life. Melo has a lot of work to do for anyone outside of Knicks fans to consider him MVP material.

[TheGarden]

Garden... man chill out It's only been four games. Melo looking good, but as a Melo fan he always does this, then he fizzles out. Give it some time, if Melo is playing this good after awhile he will get his recognition.

Melo is my guy but he needs to prove that he is elite consistently, everyone knows he can go on stretches. He just need to do it all season long. No need in arguing with everyone over 4 games.

Its not just these 4 games, Melo's always been over looked, I'm not saying he's the Goat but he's better than he's been made out to be and never gets credit

if he played like **** for 4 games and we were 0-4 then he'd suck, be cancer and would never change, you know how that goes

And I'm not arguing that was a nice debate which is what I post here for, he came with great details and emphasis and so did I, nice discussion

[arifgokcen]

Lebron is more efficient than Carmelo no matter what, that's not really in debate right now as we've had a good amount of years to determine that. Things like no calls, forced shots, late shot clock heaves are generally going to balance themselves out over a large sample size. Unless there's some sort of evidence that Carmelo is receiving a significant amount of no calls, or taking significantly more late heaves which I don't believe there is, then those are really irrelevant.

If Carmelo is taking more forced shots, does that mean that the team he's on is causing him to do that, or that he can't create as many good looks for himself as Lebron can?

Honestly, I didn't want to debate Lebron vs Carmelo because I don't think anyone is arguing who is better between Lebron and Carmelo, since it is obvious, but Carmelo and the Knicks are doing well so far. Just wanted to point out that the means of comparing defense is not accurate.

it was never an argument of who's better(LeBron is) or who's more efficient(LeBron is) but the argument that their numbers dont really tell the story between their careers

Example- late in the shot clock, Carmelo gets the ball 5-8 seconds left and makes a move, double comes but Melo still takes the shot(thats his nature), LeBron same scenario makes a move sees the double but makes the pass(thats his nature)

Its hard to compare a 6'8 Point Guard, LeBron is not a 3 never has been ,never will, to a Lethal scorer.

Also the no call situation is completely different. Carmelo rarely gets the "superstar" call, LeBron gets a ton of touch fouls, 50/50 calls and "superstar" calls. I think Carmelo takes more of a beating than LeBron

There's just so much that goes into their games and styles and people will always use LeBron as a case study for Carmelo but they are nothing alike

Back to the MVP discussion, I still feel Carmelo is #1 because from last year to this year I have seen a bigger step in Carmelo's game than LeBron's and if anyone says LeBron is just coasting then thats another reason Carmelo should be #1

You cant be more wrong.Let me answer with detailed numbers.

Lebron has always taken more shots especially late shot clock situation.Actually dating back to 2007 lebron has taken more shots than anybody 3 seconds or less left in the shotclock.He hits that kind of shots at an amazing rate too.Here are the numbers.For comparison sake i added kobe's numbers too
Secs. Att. eFG% Ast'd Blk'd Pts

Carmelo 21+ 13% .404 29% 5% 1.9
Lebron 21+ 21% .468 27% 1% 3.7
Kobe 21+ 18% .356 26% 3% 3.0

This is last year.So dont lie

Again you say lebron gets superstar calls.Thats a lie too.Most analyst says if he really gets the every call he deserves games would be much longer because of his size we rarely see him affected by the contact.Even though he attacks relentlessly he only gets 0.2ft more than melo(per36minutes).Everyone knows including you my friend melo game depends more on jumper than lebron's.So thats a lie too.

Yes lebron is coasting.But i every advanced statistical category he is better than carmelo.Melo is playing well but not as good as coasting lebron.Lebron is scoring much better rebounds better distributes better.Name me one thing melo did better than lebron till now.Even the most known aspects of melo's game is jump shot and lebron is doing that better too.

Only justifiable excuse to rank him over lebron is the win knicks got over miami.Because on an individual level,coasting lebron is still better than beasting melo

[Tien]

There is a reason why he is overlooked. It's called 10 years in the league with mediocre results. If he's MVP calibre, prove it for 82 games, something he has never done.

[og15]

That's the smart basketball play though, Camelo is just not as smart of a basketball player, and Lebron doesn't always pass up those shots, yet people still say it. The numbers show that he takes a huge amount of last second, late clock, all those shots. Also, as much as Carmelo is called the lethal scorer, Lebron does just as much or more scoring than him year in and year out. Lebron is both the capable PG, and is the more lethal scorer, that's what makes him so special.

Yea, Carmelo can be #1, but ago don't even get why people get into any serious debate about this after the amount of games being played, but honestly, Tim Duncan with the Spurs at 6-1, and his 18.9 pts' 9.7 Rebs, 2.4 assists, 1.4 steals and 2.4 blocks in 30.1 MPG along with a .586 TS% and a 28.9 PER might have the best two week case for MVP.

Scoring- like I said there's much more than meets the eye and you cant look at PPG and FG% and justify who does what. Forever now Carmelo has been called the best scorer in the game

Duncan- Agreed Duncan is doing a great job this year and has a say in this debate no doubt

fact is many people have their cases, I just get bothered by the James and Durant are the only 2 who can win it and have any say in the debate. I blame the media

Yes, I know, and a lot of that is because people like aesthetics. Carmelo is a more aesthetically pleasing scorer than Lebron. His shot looks smoother, his moves look nicer, but the reality is that Carmelo is not truly a better scorer than Lebron, and if he is, it has never actually objectively showed itself. Lebron and Carmelo are essentially equal as scorers in terms of volume through their careers, and Lebron is more efficient. Carmelo has never had great volume than Lebron's best, or greater efficiency than Lebron's best.

Lebron's career high is 56, Carmelo's is 50. Lebron has 8 50+ point games, Carmelo has 2. Lebron has 48 games with 40+, Carmelo has 21 games with 40+. There's definitely analysis that we need to do, but when a subjective view has no objective backup, the solution is not to choose the subjective view.

Carmelo certainly has the talent and variety of skills to be the league's best scorer, but he's yet to actually show himself to be that. He's certainly more aesthetically pleasing to watch than Lebron in terms of scoring, but better? That's just perception with little reality behind it.

[TheGarden]

That's the smart basketball play though, Camelo is just not as smart of a basketball player, and Lebron doesn't always pass up those shots, yet people still say it. The numbers show that he takes a huge amount of last second, late clock, all those shots. Also, as much as Carmelo is called the lethal scorer, Lebron does just as much or more scoring than him year in and year out. Lebron is both the capable PG, and is the more lethal scorer, that's what makes him so special.

Yea, Carmelo can be #1, but ago don't even get why people get into any serious debate about this after the amount of games being played, but honestly, Tim Duncan with the Spurs at 6-1, and his 18.9 pts' 9.7 Rebs, 2.4 assists, 1.4 steals and 2.4 blocks in 30.1 MPG along with a .586 TS% and a 28.9 PER might have the best two week case for MVP.

Scoring- like I said there's much more than meets the eye and you cant look at PPG and FG% and justify who does what. Forever now Carmelo has been called the best scorer in the game

Duncan- Agreed Duncan is doing a great job this year and has a say in this debate no doubt

fact is many people have their cases, I just get bothered by the James and Durant are the only 2 who can win it and have any say in the debate. I blame the media

Yes, I know, and a lot of that is because people like aesthetics. Carmelo is a more aesthetically pleasing scorer than Lebron. His shot looks smoother, his moves look nicer, but the reality is that Carmelo is not truly a better scorer than Lebron, and if he is, it has never actually objectively showed itself. Lebron and Carmelo are essentially equal as scorers in terms of volume through their careers, and Lebron is more efficient. Carmelo has never had great volume than Lebron's best, or greater efficiency than Lebron's best.

Lebron's career high is 56, Carmelo's is 50. Lebron has 8 50+ point games, Carmelo has 2. Lebron has 48 games with 40+, Carmelo has 21 games with 40+. There's definitely analysis that we need to do, but when a subjective view has no objective backup, the solution is not to choose the subjective view.

Carmelo certainly has the talent and variety of skills to be the league's best scorer, but he's yet to actually show himself to be that. He's certainly more aesthetically pleasing to watch than Lebron in terms of scoring, but better? That's just perception with little reality behind it.

then again look at the shots, Carmelo falls in love with jumper a little too much when he's at this best driving and finishing. LeBron attacks the basket and then utilizes the D playing off of him and takes his jumpers. Something I see Carmelo doing a little more of this year. LeBron also is better in transition he gets 8-10 points a game off of transition easily

Carmelo is the better scorer because he can score in every facet its just his approach to scoring is different LeBron's

But I gotta go, off to the bar to watch my Jets lose, we can continue this great debate later dude

[Xekana]

Lebron and Durant are proven winners. Melo has gotten out of 1st round once in his life. Melo has a lot of work to do for anyone outside of Knicks fans to consider him MVP material.

The MVP is a regular season award.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[C-izMe]

In response to the guy saying Lebron doesn't get more calls your wrong. Career wise Melo has almost always attacked the rim more than Lebron (he actually has the record for most recorded shots at rim in a season) and he has always gotten less calls.

The difference between the two scoring wise is that Melo gets in the paint more but finishes over 10% worse than Lebron at rim.

Lebron also gets to the rim mostly on transition buckets (that speed) while Melo gets to the rim on post ups and hard drives.