Should Bryan Colangelo be Fired

[Volcano]

hell yeah..Bargnani's already soured with fans a long time ago. BC preaches mental make-up/character and Bargnani is just about as bad as it gets. I'd rather have a bad-ass than promote lazy-ball.

And how do you know that he's not intent on trading him? One thing that BC is great at is hiding his cards. For better or worse it's hard to read what his moves are going to be with the exception of when negotiations get stretched out that news are bound to make its way to the media. It was widely believed BC had the same love affair with Calderon, but when it was reported he was being traded it literally came out of nowhere...then the GOAT blocks the trade at the last minute. Since then no one dared to question BC's loyalty to Calderon, because there never was one and our team's inability to trade him is mostly conjured up as a curse rather than some umbilical cord BC has tied to him.

Do people really think that BC is this dense?

I didn't know it takes 7 years to make one trade. Damn, BC's some kind of genius! In order to not have Bargnani on our team, we should draft him and keep him for 7 years! The entire goal this time was NOT to have him on our team!

You want to know how dense BC is? LOOK AT HIS PAST TRANSACTIONS. Kapono for 6 mill/year..REALLY?

Go look in the other thread. He admitted to passing on top 3 talent. You really think this guy is some kind of guru don't you? I guess losers think alike. Yeah, lottery teams are like the new NBA champs.

[Kabookalu]

I didn't know it takes 7 years to make one trade. Damn, BC's some kind of genius! In order to not have Bargnani on our team, we should draft him and keep him for 7 years! The entire goal this time was NOT to have him on our team!

That's a twist on things. So it's logical to think BC should have given up on his first overall pick in his rookie year?

[Kabookalu]

You want to know how dense BC is? LOOK AT HIS PAST TRANSACTIONS. Kapono for 6 mill/year..REALLY?

Go look in the other thread. He admitted to passing on top 3 talent. You really think this guy is some kind of guru don't you? I guess losers think alike. Yeah, lottery teams are like the new NBA champs.

Now you're just acting childish. And I'm the one criticized for going on off topic tangents. I was never arguing BC's tenure as a whole, but that BC's tenure is tied to Bargnani. All that emotional baggage would dissipate if BC traded Bargnani away. You honestly believe that BC's hate would still be nearly at peak form if he traded away Bargnani? This Fire BC bandwagon is engineered by hate for BC, and the player largely responsible for that is Bargnani. Take that away and it doesn't dispel BC's previous moves, but it would quell it definitely.

[Volcano]

I didn't know it takes 7 years to make one trade. Damn, BC's some kind of genius! In order to not have Bargnani on our team, we should draft him and keep him for 7 years! The entire goal this time was NOT to have him on our team!

That's a twist on things. So it's logical to think BC should have given up on his first overall pick in his rookie year?

It's logical for him not to draft him in the first place. Aldridge was the favourite at the time. He was projected as a PF, but so was Bargs. Aldridge had more of a C's game. There's no logical reason to draft Bargs.

BC gave him a 5 year projection, not the fans. Bargs clearly wasn't the right fit at C for Bosh when he was entering his prime. They were in a "win now" situation. You don't invest in a misfit 5 year project during your star's prime. Yes, he should have traded Bargs in his rookie season, before his rookie season and after his rookie season.

[Kabookalu]

It's logical for him not to draft him in the first place. Aldridge was the favourite at the time. He was projected as a PF, but so was Bargs. Aldridge had more of a C's game. There's no logical reason to draft Bargs.

BC gave him a 5 year projection, not the fans. Bargs clearly wasn't the right fit at C for Bosh when he was entering his prime. They were in a "win now" situation. You don't invest in a misfit 5 year project during your star's prime. Yes, he should have traded Bargs in his rookie season, before his rookie season and after his rookie season.

like I said I'm the one known for going on off topic tangents?

[Volcano]

Now you're just acting childish. And I'm the one criticized for going on off topic tangents. I was never arguing BC's tenure as a whole, but that BC's tenure is tied to Bargnani. All that emotional baggage would dissipate if BC traded Bargnani away. You honestly believe that BC's hate would still be nearly at peak form if he traded away Bargnani? This Fire BC bandwagon is engineered by hate for BC, and the player largely responsible for that is Bargnani. Take that away and it doesn't dispel BC's previous moves, but it would quell it definitely.

YOU ASKED IF HE WAS DENSE. How is pointing out his dense moves off-topic?

You're ASSUMING it's mainly tied to Bargnani, yet if we take that out of the equation, people would still call for his head. It's about WINNING. If we were winning WITH Bargs, nobody would care. If BC traded Bargs 3 years ago and the win/loss column stayed the same, the hate would be the same. You're making terrible assumptions.

People were loving Lowry/JVal before the season started and the fire BC movement was fairly low. Once we started losing, everyone started hating. You really think it would be the same if we were 6-1?

like I said I'm the one known for going on off topic tangents?

I don't see how anything I said is off-topic. You asked if BC's really dense and you couldn't handle the answer. You're scratching your head wondering why it was logical to trade Bargs. It wouldn't be illogical to trade him in his rookie season, it would be more cutthroat, but you don't win in this business by being nice.

[Kabookalu]

Straw man argument. Can you please stay on topic? I was clearly pointing to people wondering if BC is dense in his inability to see how poorly Bargnani has been. All those things that you mentioned? They're bad business decisions. Being dense is holding some irrational attachment to Bargnani, and that's always been overblown with Raptors fans. Him not finding a trade is not the same as overvaluing Bargnani or coddling him to be the franchise. Get real.

You're clearly not getting my point and really it's irritating when people just don't understand the simple stuff I write. I never said BC would be forgiven if he traded for Bargnani, but all that hate would be quelled (I used the word dissipate but that was the wrong word to use) and you would be foolish to not think so.

[Scase]

Mr Dynasty would turn down that job because he has a better one working as a model at Abercrombie & Fitch

Man you just wouldn't get it. A&F isn't just a job man...it's a lifestyle

[Kabookalu]

People were loving Lowry/JVal before the season started and the fire BC movement was fairly low. Once we started losing, everyone started hating. You really think it would be the same if we were 6-1?

I don't deny that if our record was reversed there wouldn't be nearly the same movement of hate. However you're failing to see the politics here. BC's name is constantly tied to Bargnani's, and by trading him away it would cleave all the BC coddling Bargnani gags that fans have conjured up for him. That alone would erase a lot of the hate fans have for BC just for the fact they've attached their hate to the idea that BC put Bargnani over this franchise. Would fans still stop hating him? Hardly, but most fans would see it as "a start".

[Volcano]

Straw man argument. Can you please stay on topic? I was clearly pointing to people wondering if BC is dense in his inability to see how poorly Bargnani has been. All those things that you mentioned? They're bad business decisions. Being dense is holding some irrational attachment to Bargnani, and that's always been overblown with Raptors fans. Him not finding a trade is not the same as overvaluing Bargnani or coddling him to be the franchise. Get real.

You're clearly not getting my point and really it's irritating when people just don't understand the simple stuff I write. I never said BC would be forgiven if he traded for Bargnani, but all that hate would be quelled (I used the word dissipate but that was the wrong word to use) and you would be foolish to not think so.

Accept you're wrong on all accounts. Maybe you should try to understand what I'm saying first.

- Yes, BC does have an affinity towards Bargnani. Just because fans exaggerate something doesn't mean there isn't a truth behind it. We're talking about Bargnani's entire career. BC clearly favoured Bargs by drafting him. He couldn't see that Bargs was a misfit from the start and believed in the "new era" of big men. That's irrational. It was logical to trade him at almost all points in his career, yet it's not done yet. It doesn't take 7 years to trade one player. That's dense.

- and I said the hate wouldn't be quelled. It's about winning and losing, end of story. If Bargnani is traded and we still lose for the next couple of years, the hate would still be there. If Bargnani was traded 3 years ago and we still lose, the hate would still be the same. If Bargnani was not traded and we were winning, THEN the hate would be quelled. It's foolish of you to think otherwise.

I don't deny that if our record was reversed there wouldn't be nearly the same movement of hate. However you're failing to see the politics here. BC's name is constantly tied to Bargnani's, and by trading him away it would cleave all the BC coddling Bargnani gags that fans have conjured up for him. That alone would erase a lot of the hate fans have for BC just for the fact they've attached their hate to the idea that BC put Bargnani over this franchise. Would fans still stop hating him? Hardly, but most fans would see it as "a start".

imo..it's passed that point. Bargs or no Bargs. <-- I think that's the difference btwn our opinions. It's well beyond that point now. From Kapono to Hedo to Fields..nobody trusts him anymore.

[Ditchweed]

Still we are in the league and to be able to beat that, the new GM and plan has to come up with a team, just like the Blue Jays did in '92 & '93, that will have to beat the other team plus the uneven reffing. That is a hard call, especially for an organization that won't overspend and for a location outside the US that is not prime to free agents or superstars.

So get rid of BC ... no problem, a rebuild and fresh air can't hurt but I don't think the problem is just BC. Even if we luck out and get a good new GM, he will also have his hands partially tied and the end result will, unfortunately, most probably be just the same.

Just wanted to comment on this... The Jays won by slowly building up a core over the course of about a decade, leveraging that core for new assets, they had some success throughout the late 80s with their homegrown talent and a few key trades, but they didn't truly win until they had the highest payroll in baseball, allowing them to pounce on rarely available players. Basically, they got over the hump by pretending they were the modern Yankees and MLB players couldn't tell the difference... they had no problem coming here, getting traded here, or re-signing here when the team was good. There was nothing else going on except sound strategy. If Raps ownership isn't going over the lux tax regularly and isn't committing to rebuilds, we'll never be the Lakers.

That is pretty well what I said ... they have to do A, but that it is a hard call with B. If you read the whole post you'll see that I say it is doubtful we will get there. Maybe I should have used stronger words than a "hard call".

1993 was the real powerhouse year ... when the Jays picked up Molitor and Henderson to go with Olerud, Carter, Alomar, White it became the best offense baseball had seen for a long time. It was a one year gamble for a win that worked in '93 since in '94 Molitor became a permanent DH and Henderson left. In '93 they just outplayed everybody.

[Scase]

People were loving Lowry/JVal before the season started and the fire BC movement was fairly low. Once we started losing, everyone started hating. You really think it would be the same if we were 6-1?

I don't deny that if our record was reversed there wouldn't be nearly the same movement of hate. However you're failing to see the politics here. BC's name is constantly tied to Bargnani's, and by trading him away it would cleave all the BC coddling Bargnani gags that fans have conjured up for him. That alone would erase a lot of the hate fans have for BC just for the fact they've attached their hate to the idea that BC put Bargnani over this franchise. Would fans still stop hating him? Hardly, but most fans would see it as "a start".

I see what you're saying and to a degree I concur. But mainly with the last line, sure it would have some impact on the BC hate but really at this point in the game people are tired of the entirety of his tenure here.

I wouldn't be suddenly ok with BC again just cause he ditched Bargs unless he pulled something ridiculous like a Bargs for Gay trade. Which we all know isn't possible. Essentially unless he pulls off an absolutely one sided blockbuster trade in our favor getting rid of Bargs amounts to a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.

When getting a new GM who would presumably amnesty/trade/find some way to rid us of Bargs as well as helping right the ship, why settle for just Bargs being moved and keeping BC.

[Volcano]

People were loving Lowry/JVal before the season started and the fire BC movement was fairly low. Once we started losing, everyone started hating. You really think it would be the same if we were 6-1?

I don't deny that if our record was reversed there wouldn't be nearly the same movement of hate. However you're failing to see the politics here. BC's name is constantly tied to Bargnani's, and by trading him away it would cleave all the BC coddling Bargnani gags that fans have conjured up for him. That alone would erase a lot of the hate fans have for BC just for the fact they've attached their hate to the idea that BC put Bargnani over this franchise. Would fans still stop hating him? Hardly, but most fans would see it as "a start".

I see what you're saying and to a degree I concur. But mainly with the last line, sure it would have some impact on the BC hate but really at this point in the game people are tired of the entirety of his tenure here.

I wouldn't be suddenly ok with BC again just cause he ditched Bargs unless he pulled something ridiculous like a Bargs for Gay trade. Which we all know isn't possible. Essentially unless he pulls off an absolutely one sided blockbuster trade in our favor getting rid of Bargs amounts to a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.

When getting a new GM who would presumably amnesty/trade/find some way to rid us of Bargs as well as helping right the ship, why settle for just Bargs being moved and keeping BC.

Actually that's a good point. While I don't think trading Bargs away would do anything to simmer down the hate, I think pulling off a ridiculous trade (like getting Gay..who I think is overrated btw) would help.

[Kabookalu]

Accept you're wrong on all accounts. Maybe you should try to understand what I'm saying first.

- Yes, BC does have an affinity towards Bargnani. Just because fans exaggerate something doesn't mean there isn't a truth behind it. We're talking about Bargnani's entire career. BC clearly favoured Bargs by drafting him. He couldn't see that Bargs was a misfit from the start and believed in the "new era" of big men. That's irrational. It was logical to trade him at almost all points in his career, yet it's not done yet. It doesn't take 7 years to trade one player. That's dense.

- and I said the hate wouldn't be quelled. It's about winning and losing, end of story. If Bargnani is traded and we still lose for the next couple of years, the hate would still be there. If Bargnani was traded 3 years ago and we still lose, the hate would still be the same. If Bargnani was not traded and we were winning, THEN the hate would be quelled. It's foolish of you to think otherwise.

I'm wrong on all accounts.

There was no consensus first overall pick in that draft at all. How many times does the dead horse need to be beaten before that gets through people's heads? Selecting a player that turned out to be one of the better players in the lottery is not favoring him anymore than it is picking a good pick. You can criticize him for his revolutionary of the game plan, which failed miserably, but how does that show he shows some irrational love for Bargnani?

That's a given. What you're failing to see that at this very moment the BC hate is at an all time high. Not many people are seeing this all with a clear head and their emotions are being driven by everything but logic. Not having to see Bargnani every night would make the team more bearable to watch, and it's unreasonable to think the hate would still be consistent without Bargnani. He would still get bagged on for losing, sure, but by trading him away he would quell the hate. He would need to do more than that to clear his name, obviously.

[asaprocky]

Fire him right now. He drafted Ross and signed Fields all to get Nash and look how it turned out. We should have drafted AD and traded him for Harden.

[Scase]

Fire him right now. He drafted Ross and signed Fields all to get Nash and look how it turned out. We should have drafted AD and traded him for Harden.

WE WERE NEVER CLOSE TO GETTING HARDEN FFS

The deal they had with houston out matches anything we could have put together even with Drummond jeeze....

[Ditchweed]

Fire him right now. He drafted Ross and signed Fields all to get Nash and look how it turned out. We should have drafted AD and traded him for Harden.

That would have never happened, because if it would have worked, Detroit could have done it.

[McFurious1]

Fire him right now. He drafted Ross and signed Fields all to get Nash and look how it turned out. We should have drafted AD and traded him for Harden.

That would have never happened, because if it would have worked, Detroit could have done it.

We could have traded Val for Harden & still would have had a prospect like Drummond.

[Guy Smiley]

I would suggest the Raptors lottery pick was the sweetener that helped land Harden.

Why must Toronto be the ones pining for tank nation while smart organizations snare top picks from horrible front offices and terrible teams?

[orbesnet]

I'm with it.