Small ball won't survive 82 game season

[AAAAA1]

Why do you believe it won't last? I see your topic but I don't see any reasons.

1) Shane is too small to play the 4 against every team in the league focus on bolded. Against certain teams like the celtics and thunder we can get away with it but those are only a handful of games. When we face the bigger teams, it forces the perimeter players like Lebron and Wade to expend too much energy trying to help Shane. Look at last night as a perfect example. This is the main reason we have been giving up so many 3s. Good coaches tell their players that when Wade leaves them to go help Shane, they should respace the court to make it harder for Wade to find them.

2) UD is forced to play the 5 when Ray Allen checks in. Ray is probably our worst perimeter defender whiles UD is our worst interior defender imo so that pairing gives us almost no chance defensively against quick penetrating guards. UD is also probably our worst pick n roll defender because he never recovers in time so that leaves three point shooters open and guess who will be forced to cover all that ground back to the 3 point shooters?

3) In an 82 game season teams will throw out big frontcourts to wear us out on the boards and in the long run those rebounds will add up and hurt our defense even more

Am not saying that small ball is a bad idea but i don't think it's smart to abuse it in an 82 game regular season against every matchup we go up against because our players will be worn out from having to protect the paint excessively and making difficult closeouts. Ask yourself this...is it worth compromising our defense just to score more points per game? I thought this team was defensive minded

Actually Shane has been amazing against the PF. he has only been scored on once this season with a PF posting up.

And our starting line-up has the second best defense in the league, behind only the knicks.

Its our bench thats been awful, we need Joel in there for some balance. I say cut out Cole and use Wade or Lebron or Ray ALlen at the PG spot.

[cb1]

Why do you believe it won't last? I see your topic but I don't see any reasons.

1) Shane is too small to play the 4 against every team in the league focus on bolded. Against certain teams like the celtics and thunder we can get away with it but those are only a handful of games. When we face the bigger teams, it forces the perimeter players like Lebron and Wade to expend too much energy trying to help Shane. Look at last night as a perfect example. This is the main reason we have been giving up so many 3s. Good coaches tell their players that when Wade leaves them to go help Shane, they should respace the court to make it harder for Wade to find them.

2) UD is forced to play the 5 when Ray Allen checks in. Ray is probably our worst perimeter defender whiles UD is our worst interior defender imo so that pairing gives us almost no chance defensively against quick penetrating guards. UD is also probably our worst pick n roll defender because he never recovers in time so that leaves three point shooters open and guess who will be forced to cover all that ground back to the 3 point shooters?

3) In an 82 game season teams will throw out big frontcourts to wear us out on the boards and in the long run those rebounds will add up and hurt our defense even more

Am not saying that small ball is a bad idea but i don't think it's smart to abuse it in an 82 game regular season against every matchup we go up against because our players will be worn out from having to protect the paint excessively and making difficult closeouts. Ask yourself this...is it worth compromising our defense just to score more points per game? I thought this team was defensive minded

Actually Shane has been amazing against the PF. he has only been scored on once this season with a PF posting up.

And our starting line-up has the second best defense in the league, behind only the knicks.

Its our bench thats been awful, we need Joel in there for some balance. I say cut out Cole and use Wade or Lebron or Ray ALlen at the PG spot.

I think those numbers are deceptive because Wade and Lebron have been helping him down there a lot which is opening up the three point line. Against almost any team in the east, Shane can do okay as a 4. I agree with the bench needing Joel to come off it just to bring some defensive identity and i like Cole's defense as well. He saves us from Rio's terrible defense.

[EscapoTHB]

What they do is fine. Its November. If the defense is still bad in January we will talk. You cant just abandon a system ten games in. We're not the lakers. The tweak you might see is Joel taking ud's minutes. And in big games Mike will take norris's minutes.

[carbine23]

I kinda want to see Joel play again...or Josh..GIVE ME A CENTER MAN

[ReturnofMVP3]

We just aren't legit like the bobcats, pistons, knicks or Nets

I started a thread on the GB because when the bobcats are considered legit there, then I think we need feedback on us too. I want a cat.

[Brenice]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ap642vv

PG-Chalmers 6'1"
SG-Wade 6'4"
SF-LeBron 6'8"
PF- Bosh 6'11"
C- Dalembert 6'11"

Problem solved. Dalembert would give you all the effort that Haslem brings in and more.

There is no way that any team in the east would want to help us. The only way we get a center like that is through FA.

That trade didnt even make sense. Haslem has 3 years left on his contract, and JJ 2 years. Dalembert has only 1 year left on his contract.

[Pimpwerx]

Saving small ball for the playoffs is not a good idea. It just means all the problems we're seeing now will crop up then. Is that really a good idea? Ray and Shard need to get a feel for the defensive system early, and Haslem needs reps to see if he can play through his problems. This is the time to experiment. 10 games into the season, and you guys want to abandon this already? SMH. You're no better than the Lakers hating on the Prinecton after a handful of games.

It will work. You don't see Spo or the team panicking. You don't see Pat grimacing. Stop worrying so damn much. We're off to as good a start as any, and yet the same pessimists are back out again. Let it go. If Joel is the answer, we'll see that by the New Year. I personally hope not, because I like fielding a rotation of 9 shooters. We're currently at 8 until UD catches up. PEACE.

[cb1]

Saving small ball for the playoffs is not a good idea. It just means all the problems we're seeing now will crop up then. Is that really a good idea? Ray and Shard need to get a feel for the defensive system early, and Haslem needs reps to see if he can play through his problems. This is the time to experiment. 10 games into the season, and you guys want to abandon this already? SMH. You're no better than the Lakers hating on the Prinecton after a handful of games.

It will work. You don't see Spo or the team panicking. You don't see Pat grimacing. Stop worrying so damn much. We're off to as good a start as any, and yet the same pessimists are back out again. Let it go. If Joel is the answer, we'll see that by the New Year. I personally hope not, because I like fielding a rotation of 9 shooters. We're currently at 8 until UD catches up. PEACE.

Actually Spo played bigger lineups yesterday with Wade out. We saw Rashard at the 3 which is his natural position, UD at the 4 where he should always be and Bosh at the C which is a good idea as well. Joel played a bit as well and we saw the defense improve immensely with him in the game. That's all we were asking for is for Joel to play at most 10 minutes a game just to give Bosh a rest and spark us defensively. It still remains to be seen whether this small ball in the regular season will work or not but clearly so far it hasn't looked as good as when we go big. I guess we'll have to wait and see whether what you believe will manifest itself or not.

[TMIMITW]

I like that Miller doesnt play every game... I feel if he plays every two games he will be better for the season.

[ricochet]

Saving small ball for the playoffs is not a good idea. It just means all the problems we're seeing now will crop up then. Is that really a good idea? Ray and Shard need to get a feel for the defensive system early, and Haslem needs reps to see if he can play through his problems. This is the time to experiment. 10 games into the season, and you guys want to abandon this already? SMH. You're no better than the Lakers hating on the Prinecton after a handful of games.

It will work. You don't see Spo or the team panicking. You don't see Pat grimacing. Stop worrying so damn much. We're off to as good a start as any, and yet the same pessimists are back out again. Let it go. If Joel is the answer, we'll see that by the New Year. I personally hope not, because I like fielding a rotation of 9 shooters. We're currently at 8 until UD catches up. PEACE.

The approach is not termed small ball.. It's position-less..

Saving the small-ball only for the playoff's is not a good idea.. no doubt.. but going all season long with small-ball is dangerous and asking for trouble.. We need to find a hybrid.. Go small when we can distinctly exploit the other team.. Like against Denver.. going small ball for a good amount of the game is fine.. But not necessarily against Memphis.. also deciding when its right to go small depending upon the match-ups..

[420]

Small ball is gonna wear our players out early. It drives me crazy when people say they need to play with more energy to make up for the lack of size, but don't realize that we shouldn't be expending so much energy so early in the season.

I also think we should not go away from developing our youth because we look like we have a bunch of tired legs out there at times.

[Seabass777]

Yeah I love the small ball offense and it's the best way to get our best players out on the floor,but it's killing us on the inside.Based on what we have now I say start Joel in as our regular season center like we did last year then use the small-ball line up for the playoffs,or try to get Kenyon Martin,and cut Dexter Pittman.

Either that or wait until the buyout market comes along to try to get someone on the cheap,but we need at least one decent big.

[cb1]

Small ball is gonna wear our players out early. It drives me crazy when people say they need to play with more energy to make up for the lack of size, but don't realize that we shouldn't be expending so much energy so early in the season.

I also think we should not go away from developing our youth because we look like we have a bunch of tired legs out there at times.

Couldn't have said it better. Like another poster said, we need to find a hybrid and go small only based on matchups. I also agree with small dosages of Joel and Harrelson.

[Pimpwerx]

You leverage the strength of your roster. The ultimate goal is to play your best players. Ideally, your 9-man rotation will feature your 9 best players. So far, ours does. Throwing Joel into the regular rotation voids that.

A roster built for speed and shooting doesn't need a offensively-challenged big. Doing it for spot minutes makes no sense either. Some of you are saying to boost our defense. For what, 5 our of 48 minutes? What good is that really going to do? It may give you some peace of mind to see him fumbling and bumbling around out there, but what possible good will he do for our defense in spot minutes? You're basically saying to play him just to play him.

If he's not getting more than 10 minutes, he might as well get no minutes. How many of you really want Joel getting more than 10 minutes per game? Seriously?

I'm fine with adding Jorts to the rotation. I've wanted to see him get some burn for a while now. However, Joel should be saved for reserve minutes. When all else fails, break glass and grab a Joel. Otherwise, let his non-rebounding, non-scoring, non-passing offensively cancerous ass sit on the bench, and let's rotate shooters in for shooters. 7-3 means we're .700. We're tinkering with a new, somewhat-radical idea, and we're still up and playing with house money. If we can get the system to work, by letting the guys play through the problems, and "only" end up .600-.700, then boohoo, it was totally worth it.

The players have not looked frustrated in games, even when getting blown out. The players and coach have not looked frustrated after losses, even after getting blown out. No one on that team looks even remotely concerned that going positionless is a problem, yet the armchair experts on the forum think it's an issue that needs a remedy with less than 12% of the season elapsed. I think this is just being stupid.

There's a time to seek alternative solutions, and this is not it. Let's give the guys a chance to lose a game when they're actually trying defensively. So far, we can all agree that the defense hasn't looked good, but the effort hasn't looked good either. Also, timing and coordination on defense isn't there yet, with guys like Ray and Shard not rotating properly yet on defense, and with the perimeter defense looking shoddy. A shot-blocking center, who can't rebound or score isn't the solution to the unfettered access we're giving to the paint. Stopping guard penetration is the real solution. Better traps and better defensive effort from our guards will fix that. PEACE.

[narmerguy]

You leverage the strength of your roster. The ultimate goal is to play your best players. Ideally, your 9-man rotation will feature your 9 best players. So far, ours does. Throwing Joel into the regular rotation voids that.

A roster built for speed and shooting doesn't need a offensively-challenged big. Doing it for spot minutes makes no sense either. Some of you are saying to boost our defense. For what, 5 our of 48 minutes? What good is that really going to do? It may give you some peace of mind to see him fumbling and bumbling around out there, but what possible good will he do for our defense in spot minutes? You're basically saying to play him just to play him.

If he's not getting more than 10 minutes, he might as well get no minutes. How many of you really want Joel getting more than 10 minutes per game? Seriously?

I'm fine with adding Jorts to the rotation. I've wanted to see him get some burn for a while now. However, Joel should be saved for reserve minutes. When all else fails, break glass and grab a Joel. Otherwise, let his non-rebounding, non-scoring, non-passing offensively cancerous ass sit on the bench, and let's rotate shooters in for shooters. 7-3 means we're .700. We're tinkering with a new, somewhat-radical idea, and we're still up and playing with house money. If we can get the system to work, by letting the guys play through the problems, and "only" end up .600-.700, then boohoo, it was totally worth it.

The players have not looked frustrated in games, even when getting blown out. The players and coach have not looked frustrated after losses, even after getting blown out. No one on that team looks even remotely concerned that going positionless is a problem, yet the armchair experts on the forum think it's an issue that needs a remedy with less than 12% of the season elapsed. I think this is just being stupid.

There's a time to seek alternative solutions, and this is not it. Let's give the guys a chance to lose a game when they're actually trying defensively. So far, we can all agree that the defense hasn't looked good, but the effort hasn't looked good either. Also, timing and coordination on defense isn't there yet, with guys like Ray and Shard not rotating properly yet on defense, and with the perimeter defense looking shoddy. A shot-blocking center, who can't rebound or score isn't the solution to the unfettered access we're giving to the paint. Stopping guard penetration is the real solution. Better traps and better defensive effort from our guards will fix that. PEACE.

Eh this just isn't really true. Playing combos like Rashard and Haslem has been terrible for this team defensively. You are losing points when you play them. There's no reason to default to that terrible unit when Bosh rests if you have a better defensive big. That's what substitutions are about. Joel anthony actually has plenty of relevance against certain lineups, for example when the other team is working us really hard on the pick and roll. You can't just say Joel is always worthless and shouldn't play any minutes before knowing what matchup you're event talking about.

"You leverage the strength of your roster". Yeah, against what the other team is showing you. Comeon man, the same thing doesn't work against all teams. There's no reason to pretend we have to have a "one size fits all" rotation, where we play the same players in the same order no matter what the situation.

Before you discount everyone else for just being bumbling armchair idiots, consider for a moment that these changes could very well be concerns that the team has, and will ultimately account for. These sorts of changes don't happen suddenly. But how many games did we complain about bibby before he got taken out of the rotation? Or even Joel Anthony? Mistakes happen, judgment isn't perfect, and that's OK. It's part of sports. Keep an open mind though, the answer isn't always so black and white.

[Pimpwerx]

Eh this just isn't really true. Playing combos like Rashard and Haslem has been terrible for this team defensively. You are losing points when you play them. There's no reason to default to that terrible unit when Bosh rests if you have a better defensive big. That's what substitutions are about. Joel anthony actually has plenty of relevance against certain lineups, for example when the other team is working us really hard on the pick and roll. You can't just say Joel is always worthless and shouldn't play any minutes before knowing what matchup you're event talking about.

"You leverage the strength of your roster". Yeah, against what the other team is showing you. Comeon man, the same thing doesn't work against all teams. There's no reason to pretend we have to have a "one size fits all" rotation, where we play the same players in the same order no matter what the situation.

Before you discount everyone else for just being bumbling armchair idiots, consider for a moment that these changes could very well be concerns that the team has, and will ultimately account for. These sorts of changes don't happen suddenly. But how many games did we complain about bibby before he got taken out of the rotation? Or even Joel Anthony? Mistakes happen, judgment isn't perfect, and that's OK. It's part of sports. Keep an open mind though, the answer isn't always so black and white.

Reserve players are reserve players. They'll get spot minutes here or there, but don't make the regular rotation. Spo's already outlined who he wants in the rotation, and the movable pieces so far have been Miller and Cole.

Joel's minutes are going to be minuscule. There are already 9 guys who average double-digit minutes in the rotations. You're gonna have to skim minutes from Haslem, who isn't as good a defender, but fits a lot better in our offense than Joel. People say Haslem looks awful and done because he's shooting poorly, and hasn't looked impressive on the boards. However, how much worse will Joel look for those two specific reasons?

What's most-damning, really, is that when the games mattered the most the last two seasons, Joel hardly played. Yet, our defense was tits. What does that tell you? The defense can work against a myriad of matchups, as we've already seen. It will come around. I'm not going to write off even the currently porous Lewis-Haslem frontcourt, because 10 games is too small a sample size to say it won't work. Lewis is still getting his legs back, despite looking comfortable on offense. He's still learning the system. Give it time. PEACE.

[cb1]

You leverage the strength of your roster. The ultimate goal is to play your best players. Ideally, your 9-man rotation will feature your 9 best players. So far, ours does. Throwing Joel into the regular rotation voids that.

A roster built for speed and shooting doesn't need a offensively-challenged big. Doing it for spot minutes makes no sense either. Some of you are saying to boost our defense. For what, 5 our of 48 minutes? What good is that really going to do? It may give you some peace of mind to see him fumbling and bumbling around out there, but what possible good will he do for our defense in spot minutes? You're basically saying to play him just to play him.

If he's not getting more than 10 minutes, he might as well get no minutes. How many of you really want Joel getting more than 10 minutes per game? Seriously?

I'm fine with adding Jorts to the rotation. I've wanted to see him get some burn for a while now. However, Joel should be saved for reserve minutes. When all else fails, break glass and grab a Joel. Otherwise, let his non-rebounding, non-scoring, non-passing offensively cancerous ass sit on the bench, and let's rotate shooters in for shooters. 7-3 means we're .700. We're tinkering with a new, somewhat-radical idea, and we're still up and playing with house money. If we can get the system to work, by letting the guys play through the problems, and "only" end up .600-.700, then boohoo, it was totally worth it.

The players have not looked frustrated in games, even when getting blown out. The players and coach have not looked frustrated after losses, even after getting blown out. No one on that team looks even remotely concerned that going positionless is a problem, yet the armchair experts on the forum think it's an issue that needs a remedy with less than 12% of the season elapsed. I think this is just being stupid.

There's a time to seek alternative solutions, and this is not it. Let's give the guys a chance to lose a game when they're actually trying defensively. So far, we can all agree that the defense hasn't looked good, but the effort hasn't looked good either. Also, timing and coordination on defense isn't there yet, with guys like Ray and Shard not rotating properly yet on defense, and with the perimeter defense looking shoddy. A shot-blocking center, who can't rebound or score isn't the solution to the unfettered access we're giving to the paint. Stopping guard penetration is the real solution. Better traps and better defensive effort from our guards will fix that. PEACE.

What you're saying is perfectly understandable and in an ideal scenario would look very impressive if we were able to play our best 9 players and still maintained our defense but that just doesn't seem like the case. One of the reasons why people are against the UD-Rashard combo has nothing to do with just this season alone. UD was consistently torched when he played the 5 in the playoffs and Rashard has never been known as a defender so putting those two guys out there as your frontcourt is asking for other teams to penetrate your interior. You said that better traps and effort from guards will stop this but UD is probably our worst pick n roll defender because of his lack of lateral quickness so that makes us susceptible to the three point shot. On the other hand, Ray allen has and always will give up dribble penetration and because of that you need a Chris Bosh or Joel Anthony to clean up his messes and playing UD with him won't help. One of the reasons why we don't look terrible defensively with Rio is because Bosh is an excellent pick n roll defender who can protect Rio when he allows dribble penetration like he always does. I agree with you about Jorts because i feel he can defend whiles spreading the floor but for some reason Spo doesn't see that even though he's trying to employ a pace and space offense. I disagree with you about us not losing when we play with effort because that's precisely what happened in the Clippers game. Other than Wade having a few lapses defensively i saw other guys play with effort but the lack of size and bad combinations on the floor contributed to the loss more than a lack of effort. I agree with you that some more experimental time is needed for "small ball" but i have serious doubts that it will work against every single team. Am not against using it on occasion or against certain matchups either. One thing you need to understand is that Spo is very stubborn and what you may perceive as an experiment is probably a long term thing for him.

[D-BE-LAW]

IDK why heat switched to small ball. Sure it worked in the finals and a portion of the playoffs, but they were doing fine with more natural position basketball. I can see whipping it out during the playoffs again, but why a whole season.

[GeneralNbaFan]

The point behind the small ball is not the regular season...it the playoffs....
And you need to gel more to become even better...thats why its ok to loose games in the RS, because that means you will be more deadlier at playoff

[GreenHat]

Eh this just isn't really true. Playing combos like Rashard and Haslem has been terrible for this team defensively. You are losing points when you play them. There's no reason to default to that terrible unit when Bosh rests if you have a better defensive big. That's what substitutions are about. Joel anthony actually has plenty of relevance against certain lineups, for example when the other team is working us really hard on the pick and roll. You can't just say Joel is always worthless and shouldn't play any minutes before knowing what matchup you're event talking about.

"You leverage the strength of your roster". Yeah, against what the other team is showing you. Comeon man, the same thing doesn't work against all teams. There's no reason to pretend we have to have a "one size fits all" rotation, where we play the same players in the same order no matter what the situation.

Before you discount everyone else for just being bumbling armchair idiots, consider for a moment that these changes could very well be concerns that the team has, and will ultimately account for. These sorts of changes don't happen suddenly. But how many games did we complain about bibby before he got taken out of the rotation? Or even Joel Anthony? Mistakes happen, judgment isn't perfect, and that's OK. It's part of sports. Keep an open mind though, the answer isn't always so black and white.

Reserve players are reserve players. They'll get spot minutes here or there, but don't make the regular rotation. Spo's already outlined who he wants in the rotation, and the movable pieces so far have been Miller and Cole.

Joel's minutes are going to be minuscule. There are already 9 guys who average double-digit minutes in the rotations. You're gonna have to skim minutes from Haslem, who isn't as good a defender, but fits a lot better in our offense than Joel. People say Haslem looks awful and done because he's shooting poorly, and hasn't looked impressive on the boards. However, how much worse will Joel look for those two specific reasons?

What's most-damning, really, is that when the games mattered the most the last two seasons, Joel hardly played. Yet, our defense was tits. What does that tell you? The defense can work against a myriad of matchups, as we've already seen. It will come around. I'm not going to write off even the currently porous Lewis-Haslem frontcourt, because 10 games is too small a sample size to say it won't work. Lewis is still getting his legs back, despite looking comfortable on offense. He's still learning the system. Give it time. PEACE.

Last year Joel fit in better with the offense than Haslem precisely because Joel doesn't shoot (and therefore doesn't take shots from the good players) while Haslem does take all of those jumpers that have been inefficient even when wide open.

The thing is your offense is going to be good if you have Lebron, Bosh, Wade, Allen/Chalmers/Lewis/Miller but our defense has been terrible.

And our defense wasn't "tits" in games that mattered. Just last year against OKC we had only one "tits" defensive game in the finals (the pace was slower but they had a 110 ORTG in 4/5). So that tells me our defense last year, that was already a lot better than this year's defense, had room for improvement. 10 games is a small sample but its not completely irrelevant and you've made assumptions based on much less than that.