OKC look better without Harden

[DarkAzcura]

Martin is a proven scorer. So far all of Harden's scoring has come against bad teams. And when he goes against good teams he needs 20 attempts to get 20 pts and is a turnover machine.

And that is called the Monta Ellis effect, Monta Ellis was fine as a third option, super efficient and suddenly now he's the star and he shoots 43 to 45 percent after being a 50 percent shooter.

Its generally a bad idea in all sports when you try to take a complimentary piece from a winning team and think he can be the primary piece on another team with the same success.

When you think about it, how many 6th men in history can you think of that went to another team as the main guy and ever led them into contenders?

Some players are made for certain roles. If you aquire them its best to keep them in that same role they had success in. When you pay them max money though you have no choice but to make them the main guy. The end result is usually a guy who puts up a lot of pts, but does it on a lot shots, and doesn't lead their team anywhere.

John Havlicek? He didn't go to another team, but he stopped being a 6th man after the Russell era ended and helped lead the C's back to contention.

The thing with Harden is that he definitely has the tools to be a #1 option (imo at least). I was always weary of Monta and Martin as #1 options. They have too many flaws in their game. Martin is injury prone/not a great playmaker. Monta is/was almost too instinctive if that makes any sense? He doesn't sit and think the game through, which leads me to believe he wouldn't be great in crucial situations. Basically a roundabout way of saying he isn't too smart a basketball player, imo.

Harden didn't seem to have many flaws (defense?) in his game at OKC and should translate to being a #1 option better. Like any other star, though, he'll need more help sooner or later if the Rockets want to contend. One more legit 20 PPG scorer would shoot them up to contention, imo, within a year or two.

Could be wrong, though..I did think Joe Johnson had a good shot at being a really good #1 option. He wasn't bad but was pretty meh.

[Frank Mulely]

Harden can definitely be a #1 option on offense but probably would work best teamed with a very solid big man, someone like Kevin Love or LM Aldridge for instance.

Monta and Martin definitely are built to be 3 options to optimize their talent. This is probably the best possible situation for Martin. You just can't stop him from getting open looks with Durant and Westbrook around as well.

[slick_watts]

OKC has looked good against bad teams. The offense is sailing along while Martin and Durant nail three pointers all day. They miss Harden when those opportunities aren't there, against defenses that take it away. Memphis and San Antonio are examples. OKC couldn't get Martin involved against Memphis. With Harden, you give him the ball and say 'go to work'. Without him, it takes a lot more ingenuity and ball movement, which opens the team up for more turnovers.

When the ball is moving and they avoid turnovers, sure, they won't miss Harden. In the playoffs? We'll see.

Also, harden is no defensive ace, but Martin is categorically worse. Draymond Green had his way with him tonight in the post.

[DreDay]

He's a much better shooter than Harden. Martin will have much better efficiency than Harden's 'godly' .666 TS% or something like that.

Kevin Martin should get 5/80. After all, that's what James Harden got on worse stats!

[MemphisX]

In the playoffs, they will feel the pain.

[OptimusOne6]

I feel like Martin plays with Westbrook and Durant better but Harden plays with the 2nd unit better.

Harden is pretty ball-domiannt. I would say he is a ball-stopper actually almost to the extent of Carmelo Anthony. That is why Westbrook's APG dropped from 8 apg to like 5 apg from 2011 to 2012 because Harden's role on the team expanded.

I think Harden is an incredibly overrated passer/playmaker but he is still a heck of a lot better than Martin at it. That is why I think Harden plays better with the 2nd unit because not only does he know how to score himself, he also knows how to set his teammates up and get them involved. He is not as good as many people say at it but he is still pretty good at it and surely better than Martin at it.

However, I don't think Harden is a better passer/playmaker than Westbrook though which is why I think Martin plays better with Westbrook and Durant than Harden does.

[ManualRam]

I'm really confused as to why Durant is trying so hard to be a playmaker though. Westbrook should be doing that... and Durant should be doing what he does best. It's like they have it backwards.

why? they're positions not job descriptions. durant is becoming a better player.

[slick_watts]

Harden is pretty ball-domiannt. I would say he is a ball-stopper actually almost to the extent of Carmelo Anthony. That is why Westbrook's APG dropped from 8 apg to like 5 apg from 2011 to 2012 because Harden's role on the team expanded.

Russell Westbrook assists per 36 minutes with James Harden on Bench

2010-11: 9.4
2011-12: 5.9

Westbrook's dip in assists had nothing to do with Harden taking opportunities from Westbrook.

[OptimusOne6]

Russell Westbrook assists per 36 minutes with James Harden on Bench

2010-11: 9.4
2011-12: 5.9

Westbrook's dip in assists had nothing to do with Harden taking opportunities from Westbrook.

Then it is a REALLY odd coincidence that Westbrook's assists just went down as soon as Harden became an important role on OKC and his assists are going back up now that Harden is gone.

[slick_watts]

Russell Westbrook assists per 36 minutes with James Harden on Bench

2010-11: 9.4
2011-12: 5.9

Westbrook's dip in assists had nothing to do with Harden taking opportunities from Westbrook.

Then it is a REALLY odd coincidence that Westbrook's assists just went down as soon as Harden became an important role on OKC and his assists are going back up now that Harden is gone.

Not really, he's just shooting less.

2010-11: 17.6 FGA per 36
2011-12: 19.6 FGA per 36
2012-13: 17.6 FGA per 36

Serge Ibaka's usage and FG attempts have gone up. Westbrook is getting a lot of assists to him, like he did to Krstic in 2010-11.

[OptimusOne6]

Not really, he's just shooting less.

2010-11: 17.6 FGA per 36
2011-12: 19.6 FGA per 36
2012-13: 17.6 FGA per 36

Serge Ibaka's usage and FG attempts have gone up. Westbrook is getting a lot of assists to him, like he did to Krstic in 2010-11.

Well in 2012, Westbrook played off the ball a lot from what I saw which is not a good thing because Westbrook is not an off-ball player because he isn't that good of a shooter. The fact that Westbrook was playing less with the ball in his hands would mean that Harden probably was taking opportunities from him.

He is probably shooting less because it is once again his job to be the facilitator of the team. Brooks probably asked Harden to take that role in 2012 but it was Westbrook's role before that and it's Westbrook's role again with Harden out.

All I know is OKC was dead last in assists last season while they were never that bad in terms of moving the ball before in 2010 or 2011 and they aren't that bad again this season.

[slick_watts]

Well in 2012, Westbrook played off the ball a lot from what I saw which is not a good thing because Westbrook is not an off-ball player because he isn't that good of a shooter. The fact that Westbrook was playing less with the ball in his hands would mean that Harden probably was taking opportunities from him.

2011-12 Westbrook FGA per 36

Harden on: 19.7
Harden off: 19.4

2011-12 Westbrook Assist per 36

Harden on: 5.4
Harden off: 5.9

Harden being on or off the court did not appreciably affect Westbrook's assists or FGA. That's just a fact. Maybe you're remember the playoffs, where Harden had a little bit more involvement, but the difference was only marginal.

2011-12 Harden FGA per 36

Westbrook on: 9.8
Westbrook off: 18.6

On the other hand, Westbrook did have an enormous effect on what Harden was doing.

He is probably shooting less because it is once again his job to be the facilitator of the team. Brooks probably asked Harden to take that role in 2012 but it was Westbrook's role before that and it's Westbrook's role again with Harden out.

I don't know why he's shooting less, but I'm sure it has nothing to do with Harden, since Harden being in the game had very little to no effect on what Westbrook did.

All I know is OKC was dead last in assists last season while they were never that bad in terms of moving the ball before in 2010 or 2011 and they aren't that bad again this season.

OKC %AST (percent of FG assisted)

2009-10: 25th
2010-11: 24th
2011-12: 30th (best offensive season)
2012-13: 11th

The increase in assists has coincided with an increase in turnovers. I don't think generating assists has any correlation to good offense for a team.

[StatLine]

If they make the finals

[EArl]

we wont know until the playoffs

[Young_Star11]

Martin feasting on bad teams. He is an unerring accurate shooter and no doubt is loving being the #3 option.

Durant's passing has been much improved - Martin is finding himself in good spots and Durant finding him.

[GoldKnightRises]

No, they will miss his playmaking abilities when Westbrook handles the ball in the playoffs and decides to chuck up a shot instead of defering to durant

[Marionettetc]

Martin feasting on bad teams. He is an unerring accurate shooter and no doubt is loving being the #3 option.

Durant's passing has been much improved - Martin is finding himself in good spots and Durant finding him.

[OptimusOne6]

Harden being on or off the court did not appreciably affect Westbrook's assists or FGA. That's just a fact. Maybe you're remember the playoffs, where Harden had a little bit more involvement, but the difference was only marginal.

I don't think the on the bench/off-the-bench numbers will accurately decipher that though.

I don't think those numbers are usually accurate anyways. I think I read a stat showing that in 2012 Durant was like a 55% TS% when Harden wasn't out there on the court with him, yet Durant has always been a 60+% TS% type player before Harden got big minutes (2010 and 2011) and is having a 60+% TS% season again.

Like I said, before Harden's role expanded on the team in 2012 as the team's primarily facilitator and the primary playmaker, Westbrook was an 8+ APG player because he was the primarily facilitator. When Harden took on that role, Westbrook's APG dropped by like 2-3 a game.

Westbrook's mentality seemed to change because of Harden's new role, maybe it's not Harden's fault but Westbrook and Brooks' fault instead but it's noticeable.

I thought some of the eye test showed that Westbrook wasn't being utilized correctly as I saw him in the corner a lot and playing without the ball a lot. Harden isn't someone that can play or move without the ball even though he should because he's a very good shooter and a much better shooter than Westbrook. He also takes a while to get into his set and for him to start his offense which is how and why he stops the ball.

I don't know why he's shooting less, but I'm sure it has nothing to do with Harden, since Harden being in the game had very little to no effect on what Westbrook did.

Again, I think it is a bit accurate and plus Westbrook and Harden played together for the most part in 2012 anyways. It was Harden that wasn't really playing much with Westbrook and Durant out there. Westbrook and Durant played heavy minutes so for most of their minutes they played with Harden out there. The on-court/off-court stats may not be an accurate picture because of that.

[nykballa2k4]

Harden was better than his last role. Martin fills the void perfectly.

[Mass Rig]

All OKC needs is to get Sessions for one of the 1st round picks they got.