Blue Jays fans will talk themselves into anything (Blog)

[Waylon Mercy]

No need to be rattled not once did I ever peg everybody like that. My experiences comes from social
media, other boards and fans at games. My issue isn't what a big chunk of the majority of the fanbase
thinks but rather how they conduct themselves when someone disagrees with something
the organization does.

I've disagreed with plenty this organization has done. The trick, though, there is to actually have good reasons to disagree. That raises the discourse and prevents us from coming off as irrational haters with agendas.

You keep on using the argument to mention preferred candidates and that's
a faulty one because for one I'm not trashing the hire I'm simply not buying into the spin that it's and
excellent or awesome hire that I've been hearing and two none of us know who exactly was available
out there and who was truly interested.

It's not an argument. An argument is what I've done in these threads when I've gone into all of the things that Gibbons was good at during his time here and why he fits what AA is trying to do. It's asking a simple question to a person who has criticized the hiring repeatedly (go through the original thread to find such posts). If you don't like the Gibbons hiring, that must mean you had somebody else in mind (and a reason for why they would have been better), no? If not, what were you really complaining about?

Not once did I label you in that category but you keep on taking offence to that comment almost
subjectively letting me know that you are. You should also take some of your own medicine when you
say "The trick, though, there is to actually have good reasons to disagree" when it comes to
Cito, DeRozan, Escobar, Leyland etc.

My first reaction when hearing about the Gibbons hiring was shock and anger however as I've stated
numerous times I'm ok with it now after looking at what's out there in the current market and the type
of manager that I perceive we need as being retired or not available hence why I've not criticized AA for
the hire. My issue has been people ripping others that aren't in love with the hiring of Gibbons and
not drinking the kool-aid on every move the Jays do. I've said this repeatedly I can't make my stance
more clear.

I don't care if people agree or disagree on certain issues...but people get rattled so easily resulting
in cheap shots, little digs, perosnal attacks over things that are so subjective its ridiclious.
personal attacks etc I can't stand that $hit

[Randle McMurphy]

Not once did I label you in that category but you keep on taking offence to that comment almost
subjectively letting me know that you are.

If taking offense means picking through the countless logical holes in every one of your points, then sure, that's exactly what I've done here.

You should also take some of your own medicine when you say "The trick, though, there is to actually have good reasons to disagree" when it comes to Cito, DeRozan, Escobar, Leyland etc.

You're right. DeMar DeRozan is a fantastic basketball player worth all the money he's being paid despite all of the statistical evidence over the last three seasons to the contrary, Cito Gaston is the best manager the Jays have ever had despite the fact that he had nothing to do with the overwhelming talent on the '92-93 teams (and his later stint ended with a team mutiny), Jim Leyland is a phenomenal manager despite his outdated, stupid tactics and lineups (such as starting one of the worst hitters in the game in front of Miguel Cabrera/Prince Fielder in the playoffs), and Yunel Escobar is a completely worthless SS despite his bargain contract and high talent level. How could I have ever been so wrong?

My issue has been people ripping others that aren't in love with the hiring of Gibbons and
not drinking the kool-aid on every move the Jays do. I've said this repeatedly I can't make my stance
more clear.

Rip on whatever move you want. I've done it enough times myself to know how. You just better have a good reason to do it (and I've seen very few of those when it comes to this Gibbons thing).

[Waylon Mercy]

Not once did I label you in that category but you keep on taking offence to that comment almost
subjectively letting me know that you are.

If taking offense means picking through the countless logical holes in every one of your points, then sure, that's exactly what I've done here.

You should also take some of your own medicine when you say "The trick, though, there is to actually have good reasons to disagree" when it comes to Cito, DeRozan, Escobar, Leyland etc.

You're right. DeMar DeRozan is a fantastic basketball player worth all the money he's being paid despite all of the statistical evidence over the last three seasons to the contrary, Cito Gaston is the best manager the Jays have ever had despite the fact that he had nothing to do with the overwhelming talent on the '92-93 teams (and his later stint ended with a team mutiny), Jim Leyland is a phenomenal manager despite his outdated, stupid tactics and lineups (such as starting one of the worst hitters in the game in front of Miguel Cabrera/Prince Fielder in the playoffs), and Yunel Escobar is a completely worthless SS despite his bargain contract and high talent level. How could I have ever been so wrong?

My issue has been people ripping others that aren't in love with the hiring of Gibbons and
not drinking the kool-aid on every move the Jays do. I've said this repeatedly I can't make my stance
more clear.

Rip on whatever move you want. I've done it enough times myself to know how. You just better have a good reason to do it (and I've seen very few of those when it comes to this Gibbons thing).

Just like you have no good reasons at all to rip on Cito Gaston and Jim Leyland. You refuse
to acknowledge anything good about them and dismiss any positive thing they've ever done because
you're completely biased against them yet you prop up John friggin Gibbons and Im suppose to take that seriously.

You propped up Escobar because of some advanced stat you over valued and I told you he was average
at best and what happens? He ends up sucking and gets traded a year later. You completely under valued
DeRozan and treated him like a piece of trash I told he wasn't and all of a sudden hes been lights out.

The problem is you don't know how to value advanced stats and how to factor them into your final
evaluation which is why almost every argument you make is completely flawed.

You are the last person who should be going around pointing fingers with your track record you want
to come at me then Im going to start holding you accountable for all the things you've been dead
wrong about over the years. Even when you are wrong you will deny deny deny and cling on to some
useless point that is not strong enough to overtake the hard evidence that's been put in your face.

You've become so rattled you don't even recognize when we actually agree on things eg. Gibbons and
Yankees. Now you are taking offense to logical holes of my personal experiences thats a new one.

[Randle McMurphy]

Just like you have no good reasons at all to rip on Cito Gaston and Jim Leyland.

I have plenty of good reasons to criticize Cito Gaston. He managed this team very poorly in his most recent stint, applying exactly the same principles that he did with an extremely talented team to a mediocre one, to the point that most of his players engaged in a mutiny and the team failed badly. While I don't care at all about Jim Leyland, it's pretty obvious based on his terrible tactics/lineups that he's holding the Tigers back (and you'd find that most reasonable Tigers fans don't like him at all, in fact, I heard Greg Brady going off about him hurting the Tigers the other morning).

You refuse
to acknowledge anything good about them and dismiss any positive thing they've ever done because
you're completely biased against them yet you prop up John friggin Gibbons and Im suppose to take that seriously.

Hardly. I give Cito significant credit for giving Jose Bautista playing time when nobody else would and seeing something that most others didn't. There are also worse things in the world than a manager who does nothing at all tactically like Cito (they could have somebody like Leyland who actively hurts the team with terrible decisions, for example).

You propped up Escobar because of some advanced stat you over valued and I told you he was average
at best and what happens? He ends up sucking and gets traded a year later.

Advanced stat? My affinity for Yunel Escobar is really quite simple. He has a career .353 OBP, which is great for a major league SS (Jose Reyes, for an example, has a career .342 OBP). He's also under contract for only $5M, which is an incredible bargain for a SS with a career .353 OBP and plus defense.

You completely under valued DeRozan and treated him like a piece of trash I told he wasn't and all of a sudden hes been lights out.

DeMar DeRozan has been one of the worst players in the league for three years running. A short stint where he's been less than terrible isn't indicative of a real trend (see Bargnani's similar run at the beginning of last season). But sure, put your stock in a shooting guard who can't shoot, pass, or play defense...I'm sure it will end well for both you and Colangelo.

The problem is you don't know how to value advanced stats and how to factor them into your final
evaluation which is why almost every argument you make is completely flawed.

You're going to have to provide an actual example here of my "flawed arguments" if you expect me to take you even a bit seriously, especially because all you seem to do here is bring down the discourse with baseless, speculative, unsubstantiated nonsense.

You are the last person who should be going around pointing fingers with your track record you want
to come at me then Im going to start holding you accountable for all the things you've been dead
wrong about over the years. Even when you are wrong you will deny deny deny and cling on to some
useless point that is not strong enough to overtake the hard evidence that's been put in your face.

What is my track record? Which things have I been wrong about? It certainly wasn't Bryan Colangelo, I was seemingly years ahead of most here on that front. But go ahead, hold me accountable.

[BigLeagueChew]

Just like you have no good reasons at all to rip on Cito Gaston and Jim Leyland. You refuse
to acknowledge anything good about them and dismiss any positive thing they've ever done because
you're completely biased against them yet you prop up John friggin Gibbons and Im suppose to take that seriously.

You propped up Escobar because of some advanced stat you over valued and I told you he was average
at best and what happens? He ends up sucking and gets traded a year later. You completely under valued
DeRozan and treated him like a piece of trash I told he wasn't and all of a sudden hes been lights out.

The problem is you don't know how to value advanced stats and how to factor them into your final
evaluation which is why almost every argument you make is completely flawed.

You are the last person who should be going around pointing fingers with your track record you want
to come at me then Im going to start holding you accountable for all the things you've been dead
wrong about over the years. Even when you are wrong you will deny deny deny and cling on to some
useless point that is not strong enough to overtake the hard evidence that's been put in your face.

You've become so rattled you don't even recognize when we actually agree on things eg. Gibbons and
Yankees. Now you are taking offense to logical holes of my personal experiences thats a new one.

I don't agree with this one bit.

[Graham's Cracker]

I was excited to see that we signed Cesar Izturis but now that I learned that it's Julio Izturis who is much younger and full of potential, I'm even more excited. NVM, wrong thread.

[satyr9]

I don't agree with this one bit.

SHHHH. The rest of us are over here, hiding behind the couch and we have popcorn.