2013 Jays Starting Rotation Discussion Thread

Skin Blues · Post #61 » by **Skin Blues** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:43 pm

JA Happ can easily be moved to the 'pen if we can get another SP in here. As has been mentioned, you need more than 5 starters to get through a season. Each of the past two seasons we literally needed a dozen starting pitchers. Tell me it makes sense to avoid signing another one just because we have JA Happ on the roster. Not a chance.

LBJSeizedMyID · Post #62 » by **LBJSeizedMyID** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:47 pm

One more starter makes sense, I'm not disputing that. What I'm saying is if you're goal is to roster 8 or 9 pitchers, don't expect the Marcum's, McCarthy's to sign with us.

If Happ does get bumped, I'm sure a trade with one of our lefty relievers would go down or Oliver retires.

Ado05 · Post #63 » by **Ado05** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:24 pm

LBJSeizedMyID wrote:One more starter makes sense, I'm not disputing that. What I'm saying is if you're goal is to roster 8 or 9 pitchers, don't expect the Marcum's, McCarthy's to sign with us.

If Happ does get bumped, I'm sure a trade with one of our lefty relievers would go down or Oliver retires.

If McCarthy is signed, I expect him to push Happ to the BP or let the two battle it out in ST and whoever does better starts in the rotation. But, I would have no problem with Happ in BP and McCarthy in the starting rotation.

The_Hater · Post #64 » by **The_Hater** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:32 pm

LBJSeizedMyID wrote:One more starter makes sense, I'm not disputing that. What I'm saying is if you're goal is to roster 8 or 9 pitchers, don't expect the Marcum's, McCarthy's to sign with us.

Why not? If you sign Marcum, he's obviously in the rotation and JA Happ certainly isn't going to be the reason he wouldn't come here.

Or do you think that part of the negotiations would include 'as long as you can beat out JA Happ for the 5th spot in the roation...? '

LBJSeizedMyID · Post #65 » by **LBJSeizedMyID** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:10 pm

You're missing my point. I'm not saying if Marcum is signed he has to beat out Happ for the fifth spot.

I'm saying if you're goal is to sign eight or nine starters in case of injuries, you're not going to sign Marcum, Jackson and McCarthy because once one of them signs, the other two will sign elsewhere. The only other guys you'll be able to attract is the Scott Feldman's, Brett Myers - guys that are fine with middle relief but can be an emergency starter if injuries do arise.

The_Hater · Post #66 » by **The_Hater** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:54 pm

LBJSeizedMyID wrote:You're missing my point. I'm not saying if Marcum is signed he has to beat out Happ for the fifth spot.

I'm saying if you're goal is to sign eight or nine starters in case of injuries, you're not going to sign Marcum, Jackson and McCarthy because once one of them signs, the other two will sign elsewhere. The only other guys you'll be able to attract is the Scott Feldman's, Brett Myers - guys that are fine with middle relief but can be an emergency starter if injuries do arise.

Sorry but your point doesn't make any sense my friend. The guy they would sign, assuming that he's a good pitcher, will go into the rotation. The 6-9 guys, the extra guys, are already on the 40 man roster (or they might include a minor signing later) and they'll either go into the bullpen or down to AAA until they're needed. I would consider Happ to be one of those guys, I believe he's only penciled into the 5th spot out of default right now much like he was penciled into the 3rd spot before the Marlins trade.

What you're implying is that nobody will sign here because we have some incredible SP depth right now and it's going to scare off potential free agents. Sorry but that simply isn't true.

And this isn't some situation that is unique to Toronto either, every team is trying to stockpile SP depth for the season plus most free-agents are motivated by $$$. Pay Shaun Marcum more than anyone else and chances are, this is where he'll sign.

satyr9 · Post #67 » by **satyr9** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:27 pm

I ready somewhere that Esmil Rogers is out of options and that basically made up my mind that we won't see another name guy for the MLB rotation. Happ and Esmil are the 5th starter and 7th reliever (making Rogers likely the 7th/8th starter; this year's Villanueva), maybe if Oliver is retired then Happ takes his spot and there's room, but otherwise there simply isn't room to keep all these guys.

More likely, we need 1-2 recently capable but declining old farts who miss the boat and sign minor league deals. Laffey types are the typical. Best case scenarios include such notables as Randy Wolfe, Derek Lowe, Jeff Francis, Brian Duensing (this ones probably not a FA), Scott Feldman, and Chris Volstad. Exciting names for sure, but AA isn't going to sign a guy like Marcum for over-priced FA dollars when it also costs him talent that he'll lose through waivers. This last month to the contrary, I still believe AA is a value whore and I don't see him spending 10's of millions on guys who people claim are free except money, but really take up roster spots that you need to keep control of assets you already have.

Mad-Eye Moody · Post #68 » by **Mad-Eye Moody** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:54 pm

Jeff Blair mentioned on his show that the organization and AA are just not that interested in Marcum. I think we the Marcum ship sailed when the Marlins trade happened.

Secueritae · Post #69 » by **Secueritae** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:58 am

Sanchez out of the discussion as well, he's asking for 6/90m which is insane

Wo1verine · Post #70 » by **Wo1verine** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:12 pm

Teams needs more pitching, especially with the concerns with Morrow/Johnson staying healthy and the uncertainty of Romero heading into 2013. Lincoln can be sent down, so we can still very easily sign/trade another SP and move Happ to the bullpen if we decide to do so! I think that would be the smart move.

Guys like Francisco Liriano, Dan Haren & Brandon McCarthy make sense on a 1- year deal to rebuild their value.

Ado05 · Post #71 » by **Ado05** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:17 pm

Wo1verine wrote:Teams needs more pitching, especially with the concerns with Morrow/Johnson staying healthy and the uncertainty of Romero heading into 2013. Lincoln can be sent down, so we can still very easily sign/trade another SP and move Happ to the bullpen if we decide to do so! I think that would be the smart move.

I doubt AA would want to send down Lincoln. He can also go into long relief or make start here and there.

This is what I see as our starting pitching situation.

Johnson
Morrow
Romero
Buerhle
Happ
Rogers
Lincoln
Cecil
Jenkins

Then guys like McGowan, Hutchison, Drabek will be returning from injuries. But I would still want to add one more good starter for the fifth spot as those guys will be returning late in the year.

Mad-Eye Moody · Post #72 » by **Mad-Eye Moody** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:48 pm

Is McGowan ever coming back or is his career pretty much done at this point?

Redeemer · Post #73 » by **Redeemer** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:05 pm

Mad-Eye Moody wrote:Is McGowan ever coming back or is his career pretty much done at this point?

its pretty much done, but they don't want another carpenter situation happening again.

The_Hater · Post #74 » by **The_Hater** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:18 pm

Secueritae wrote:Sanchez out of the discussion as well, he's asking for 6/90m which is insane

This is the exact reason why Josh Johnson would be foolish to sign an extension with us now. As long as he doesn't completely impload, he's going to get paid as a free-agent. SP's always get grossly overpaid on the free-agent market.

LBJSeizedMyID · Post #75 » by **LBJSeizedMyID** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:22 pm

The_Hater wrote:
Secueritae wrote:Sanchez out of the discussion as well, he's asking for 6/90m which is insane

This is the exact reason why Josh Johnson would be foolish to sign an extension with us now. As long as he doesn't completely impload, he's going to get paid as a free-agent. SP's always get grossly overpaid on the free-agent market.

Players don't always sign extensions with the team that will pay the most. Some players actually sign extensions because they want some security, especially those that have a checkered injury history. Some actually want to show some loyalty.

Wo1verine · Post #76 » by **Wo1verine** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:01 pm

LBJSeizedMyID wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
Secueritae wrote:Sanchez out of the discussion as well, he's asking for 6/90m which is insane

This is the exact reason why Josh Johnson would be foolish to sign an extension with us now. As long as he doesn't completely impload, he's going to get paid as a free-agent. SP's always get grossly overpaid on the free-agent market.

Players don't always sign extensions with the team that will pay the most. Some players actually sign extensions because they want some security, especially those that have a checkered injury history. Some actually want to show some loyalty.

I don't think AA makes this trade if he didn't think he can lock up Johnson.
And with his brass coming out and saying they're open to one tells me AA will get it done at some point.
Time will tell.

Seasontickets · Post #77 » by **Seasontickets** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:22 am

Mang, all these crazy contracts for pitchers.

How's Darvish's 101 million over 6 look now?:/

Redeemer · Post #78 » by **Redeemer** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:37 pm

Seasontickets wrote:Mang, all these crazy contracts for pitchers.

How's Darvish's 101 million over 6 look now?:/

actually 50 mill, the other 50 was for his posting fee. they probably could make that up with jap revenue.

Seasontickets · Post #79 » by **Seasontickets** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:44 pm

Redeemer wrote:
Seasontickets wrote:Mang, all these crazy contracts for pitchers.

How's Darvish's 101 million over 6 look now?:/

actually 50 mill, the other 50 was for his posting fee. they probably could make that up with jap revenue.

Yeah my point exactly. Yu Darvish is looking like a bargain. I mean his real contract is 6 years 50 million. 8 million a season vs Sanchez asking for 15 m per year.

Ado05 · Post #80 » by **Ado05** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:52 pm

Seasontickets wrote:Mang, all these crazy contracts for pitchers.

How's Darvish's 101 million over 6 look now?:/

Time to forget this. Theres no point in talking about him. Probably just makes everyone feel worse