The Future may mean trading a big piece...

[Silvie Lysandra]

My issue with Wall isn't his shot, it's his handles. Is he going to be an elite playmaker and slasher in the half court? Kyrie is already a way better halfcourt offensive player. Will Wall ever be even above average in the half court?

His upside seems like a bit above Russell Westbrook - but where's the Durant? Even if Beal turns out to be our Harden?

[hands11]

Random add in: CCJ, you are kind of like the drafting version of prime Allen Iverson. You have swag, and you play by your own rules. You believe you can hit any draft pick, from anywhere on the draft board, any time.

Some drafts this means you rack up 50, blowing by defenders and scoring all the great draft calls. Sometimes it means you keep taking the difficult shot even though it's not going in, and shoot your team right out of media consensus pick.

Overall you're a unique talent and a positive contributor to fake-GM success. But your confidence in your ability to nail the tradeback 22nd-slotter is both your greatest strength and your greatest weakness.

And I don't believe in practice. We talkin' bout practice, Illuminaire. Deep analogy, BTW

I do still believe I'm right about Almond, too. I can't help it. As Popeye would say, "I yam what I yam".

I agree with you on what I see as a blessing and a curse, Illuminaire. I hit big and I miss big, too. What I notice, however, is that Steve Novak and Ramon Sessions are prolific players no matter what people who disagreed with me on. I truly believe with a good many of my "misses" it just takes time.

(Mike Sweetney should do what Charles Barkley did. He CAN play! I hate being wrong. He's not QUITE as good as Carmelo Anthony. I was wrong there, but ...)

And thats what makes it tough to have this kind of ideas play out more. Later players get less chances. They bounce around more.

[Dat2U]

As to Paul George, he has had two outstanding seasons and his numbers are a little down this year.

Why do people keep saying this? George had two average seasons. He posted a PER of 13.0 and 16.5 in his first two years. While that's admirable for a young player, it hardly meets the threshold of "outstanding". He's a fine player, but I see no reason to put him in the same sentence as John Wall.

Well compared to Landry Fields, George had two outstanding seasons.

[nykfan757]

As to Paul George, he has had two outstanding seasons and his numbers are a little down this year.

Why do people keep saying this? George had two average seasons. He posted a PER of 13.0 and 16.5 in his first two years. While that's admirable for a young player, it hardly meets the threshold of "outstanding". He's a fine player, but I see no reason to put him in the same sentence as John Wall.

My point in mentioning George and Kanter were not to say they should do that particular deal. Moreso that those are the type of deals they should take a listen to if/when they are ever presented with it.

George is a very good player...in an offense where he is required to keep constant ball movement he puts up very respectable numbers. Webster is playing freelance basketball right now...while I like him as a player...his upside is nowhere near as high as George's.

OAN: to piggy back from my head coach aspect...why not pick up the phone and ask JT3 if he wants to be the leader of this team??

[nykfan757]

My issue with Wall isn't his shot, it's his handles. Is he going to be an elite playmaker and slasher in the half court? Kyrie is already a way better halfcourt offensive player. Will Wall ever be even above average in the half court?

His upside seems like a bit above Russell Westbrook - but where's the Durant? Even if Beal turns out to be our Harden?

Blasphemy!!!

His upside is nowhere near where Russell Westbrook is...

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Look who's still in the league, Dat.

James Anderson had 9 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists in 19 minutes (+8) against the Miami Heat.

Here is a picture of him guarding Lebron.



http://sports.yahoo.com/news/allen-heat ... --nba.html

San Antonio closed the first quarter on a 21-6 run, taking a 27-22 lead after the period, and simply did not go away. The Spurs led by as many as seven at one point, and after James Anderson made a pair of free throws with 0.6 seconds left in the third, San Antonio held a 76-73 lead heading into the final 12 minutes.

SA almost won without Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, and Green (and, also without Jackson and Leonard who are injured).

The same way Price or Livingston contribute to the Wizards, Greg Popovich allowed James Anderson to play tonight. If he could not play they never would have called him back after waiving him. Anderson is not a bad player.

[blazinskillz]

My issue with Wall isn't his shot, it's his handles. Is he going to be an elite playmaker and slasher in the half court? Kyrie is already a way better halfcourt offensive player. Will Wall ever be even above average in the half court?

His upside seems like a bit above Russell Westbrook - but where's the Durant? Even if Beal turns out to be our Harden?

Blasphemy!!!

His upside is nowhere near where Russell Westbrook is...

First two years in the league..Wall and Wesbrook

Brook
15.3pts, 4.9rbs, 5.3 ast 1.3stl and 0.2 blks on 38%,27%,81%ft with 3.34 to's
16.1pts, 4.9 rbs, 8st, 1.3 stl and 0.4 blks on 41% 22% 78%ft with 3.27 to's


Wall
16.4pts, 4.6rbs, 8.3 ast, 1.8 stls and 0.5 blks on 40%,29%3pt,76%ft with 3.7 to's
16.3pts,4.5 rbs,8 ast, 1.4 stls and 1 blks on 42%,071 3pt%,78% ft with 3.8 to's

One guy played with Kevin Durant, the other guy played with Andre Blatche as their premier player.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I have no trouble writing just such a sentence: "Paul George would work really well playing alongside John Wall" because the two have complementary talents. Trading the later for the former would very much be a selling one's hair to afford a comb situation.

Agreed, if the idea were to trade Wall directly for George, Ed. I would take my chances with Wall for Paul George and CJ McCollum.

The Wizards would also still have their own lottery pick.

[Nivek]

I agree with CCJ and payitforward that the board overrates Wall, but as payitforward notes, virtually everyone overrates #1 picks. Not just #1 #1, but high picks in general. Jared Jeffries is STILL getting an NBA paycheck despite the fact that it's been demonstrably proven he's no good primarily because he was a lotto pick and he's a nice guy.

Regarding Paul George, in my system (100 = average and higher is better) he rated an 85 in his rookie season, a 124 last season, and a 95 so far this season. The 124 is good, but it's a stretch to say he's had two outstanding seasons. Year two was good. On the other hand, Wall rated an 87 as a rookie and a 97 last season so it'd be a stretch to say Wall has been outstanding in any respect. It would be a stretch to say he's a good season. At least by my ratings, he's been below average and about average.

That's not to say I'd swap Wall for George. If Wall can learn how to shoot and reduce his turnovers, he could be a great player. But, strip away the sheen of draft position and an honest evaluation would have to say that George has AT LEAST as much promise/potential as Wall.

[tontoz]

The future should mean firing a big piece.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Of ___

That was a joke. Ernie is not poo. Arguably, his work is poo.

[pineappleheadindc]

The future should mean firing a big piece.

LOL. tontoz, your sig cracks me up.

[The Consiglieri]

Before all the Wizard faithful get up in arms hear me out.

First off let me say I am a die hard Knicks fan, however, because of where I resided I got a chance to see a lot of Wiz bball over the years. Its funny to hear how some fans call the team a "minor league" for the NBA...but no so funny if you have to live with being a fan of such a team. However, in talking to one I offered this suggestion (which was scoffed at), in offering the suggestion I asked that he removed any emotional attachment from the team and look at it objectively...which is what I will ask of you...here goes...

Its time to trade John Wall.

Its not a move that will be popular...its not a move that will make much sense on the surface...BUT...if done correctly and in conjunction with hiring a head coach with vision and structure...it will be the best move the franchise has made in years.

I asked my friend to name me a coach before or after Eddie Jordan that had some type of visible structure and a vision for where he saw the team going. After a solid 5 minutes...he couldn't...and I'd bet a lot of you would be hard pressed to think of one as well. The coaching in DC has been abysmal to say the very least and there is no way you can say the talent hasn't been there...every player that leaves DC goes on to play a major role with their new teams. Very few exceptions other than those who stayed hurt (Arenas) or those who were on the downside (Jamison).

Can Wall benefit from this environment?? When he returns is he the type of player that can lift them to playoff contention?? The answers are no and no.

In knowing this, why not send Wall to a team or a situation where he can benefit as a player and the team can benefit going forward?? There are plenty of teams on the verge of playoff contention or already in that can really use a dynamo at PG. Indiana and Utah are two teams that come to mind. Paul George or Enes Kanter would look mighty good in DC blue and red. Negotiate some draft picks and young players and see if you can get the best deal for both parties. But its clear that Wall will benefit from a change of scenery...and since the Wizards are years from contending on and off the floor...it would greatly benefit them to get what they can for Wall as well and start fresh. Bottom up. New attitude...less pressure...more togetherness equals a solid locker room. Not that Wall is a head case or cancer or any of that. He's a great kid with a good future but I do not think that future is at the Verizon Center.

First thing is first...get a head coach on the bench that has a system...a willingness to teach...and a passion to win. All 3 can turn a franchise around. Patrick Ewing/Rod Strickland/Jeff Weber and others come to mind. Get one and give them the keys to the ship minus John Wall...but plus a boatload of assets and flexibility not seen in the franchise in years.

I am sure some will disagree but I think this is something worth giving thought to. I like when you guys are competitive...DC is a good town for basketball.

Thoughts??

Because we'd be selling at the maximum low on a player with a high ceiling. For all the Irving hype, and he is a great talent, he's also a common talent. A shoot first scoring PG. The whole point and attraction of wall was speed of play, hyperathleticism, and that he was a pass first PG. Yeah he's been below expectations so far, but he's also been a quality player whose shown a ton of glimpses of potential playing for a team that had nothing but garbage surrounding him, and garbage that couldn't shoot a lick at that. Imagine Wall on a team where players could actually finish their chances he provided them. If this team could shoot even league average, his assist #'s would be very good, and have the potential to be outstanding. Unfrtounately the Wiz have been if not the worst, one of the very worst shooting teams in the league throughout his short career on the team.

I'm not opposed to trading anyone, I would consider trading Wall, but it would have to be for a foundation piece with elite talent, an MKG who could shoot better while he was in college, the #1 pick last June (of course they'd say no), multiple #1's and a prospect from a team that sucks nearly as bad as us, but are we going to ever get fair value back? Nope. We'll get crap value, especially if our GM remains EG.

This team needs an elite difference making franchise talent, right now it doesnt have anyone that fits that bill and the only guy who has a chance to be that is Wall, someone we acquire in a trade, or the player we pick in next year's draft, so there's not a chance in hell Im trading him because we won't be getting back anyone that has a "chance at being a franchise player" in exchange.

It just doesnt make sense.

I dont necessairly agree with the Knicks fan, but it still doesnt make sense. the only way we should trade him is if we learn he's deadset on leaving at the end of this contract. No way in hell would I be screwed like Cleveland and Orlando were. At that point, I'd immediately trade him, quietly, before news broke about his unhappiness, otherwise, keep him, and hope by the time he's a free agent, we have Beal continuing to improve like last night, a legit player that aint a bust from the '13 draft, and Seraphin, and Singleton turning into legit starters, and D and 3 options respectively. If Wall has Beal, Seraphin, the "13 draftee, and Nene plus two expiring's to look at all representing huge value in the winter of '13-'14, we should be okay. The problem right now is EG, AND the fact that we totally squandered the '09 and most of the '11 rebuild drafts, which leaves us bereft of young rebuild talent beyond Seraphin, Beal, and maybe Singleton as at least a great role player (he is improving). We need to backup the Beal pick in '12, with a great pick in '13 to make up for the 2 out of 3 debacles from '09-'11.

[The Consiglieri]

This board overrates Wall greatly. Dat, there are winning PGs who are not great athletes. Wall is a great athlete who is not a great PG. His jump shot is not the best thing going. He has cost the Wizards games in the past. My inclination is trading him could be the best move. His knee could explode and he becomes damaged goods if it does.

nykfan757, I feel your original post.

No offense CCJ, I have mad respect for your ability to sift, 49er style, through the piles of whitenoise available from #15-#60 on draft night, and find legit role players, talents, and even good players, but you've had a weird issue with Wall since he and Cousins were being evaluated 2 years ago, you fixate on his mostly correctable flaws, and consistently lowball what he does well. I've posted grantland's scouting take on him from last year, I've been fair, and have critiqued his issues, largely with shooting, and decisionmaking, but a fair eval of Wall is impossible, because his chief assets, athleticism, speed of play, and pass first playing style are completely at odds with the collection of bricklaying hacks, and idiots that formed the starting lineup, and the key go to players on the bench during his first two seasons.

The situation has been tailor made to minimize his talents, and maximize his defficiencies. If you look closely, and consider what he can do, Wall has the chance to become a franchise level talent, if certain things fall right, or at worst, just become a good to very good PG in this league. He's a far sight better than you think right now, and he has a much higher ceiling, and a far bigger chance of reaching it than Cousins.

I view him as a guy that we may have to trade if he demands out, but that we absolutely shouldn't trade unless our hand is forced by such a trade, or a stunning trade offer that presents a player equally capable of reaching a ceiling as high as Wall's, something that is unlikely, and hugely unlikely now.

As for the Vesely trade idea someone mentioned above your post, in regards to that, I find it pointless, unless the GM changes. There is no way EG is going to admit completely blowing a pick less than 18 months ago, especially considering he was a pet pick that EG had been narrowly focused on in scouting terms for two freaking years. That's another reason to fire his arse, the only way to get decent value back for Vesely is to rid ourselves of the idiot who hitched his wagon to him less than 18 months ago.

[The Consiglieri]

Random add in: CCJ, you are kind of like the drafting version of prime Allen Iverson. You have swag, and you play by your own rules. You believe you can hit any draft pick, from anywhere on the draft board, any time.

Some drafts this means you rack up 50, blowing by defenders and scoring all the great draft calls. Sometimes it means you keep taking the difficult shot even though it's not going in, and shoot your team right out of media consensus pick.

Overall you're a unique talent and a positive contributor to fake-GM success. But your confidence in your ability to nail the tradeback 22nd-slotter is both your greatest strength and your greatest weakness.

Agreed. I've always said, I'd hire CCJ in my scouting department to be an out of the box thinker, but I wouldn't let him be GM.

I like my 49er analogy even though it's not funny.

CCJ to me is like a 49er, sifting through all the future busts that form the white noise of players projected in that 15-100 area. CCJ has a remarkable ability to find playable talent in the NBA, legit first off the bench guys, and legit starters, sometimes quality starters, with a frequency far better than NBA GM's. There are differences though, NBA GM's look at thousands of players, and evaluate players for all manner of needs, and positions, whereas CCJ tends to look for a handful of guys that he just likes, regardless of position, or need, and then wants. So the requirements of a GM are different, and harder than what CCJ asks himself to do by a longshot, however, there is no denying that like a 49er that's had some success, he finds flecks of gold, if not a strike it rich gold mine. Over the years, there have been a handful of Almondhs, but a lot of Milsapp's, and Farieds.

So I'd hire CCJ to handle my non-blue chip zone. I think he'd be genius at spinning a pick outside the bluechip zone, or in the 2nd round that could start in this league, or be a legit bench player with talent. I'd hire him because I know he'd find value most drafts where 75% of GM's never do (just look at the failure rate of players selected in the zone CCJ has built his reputation on (15-100)) and then I could spin that value into team depth, a starter, or excellent bench player, and quality filler for trades.

I wouldn't have him handle the blue chip zone because I don't like how he rates, and regards player value in the lottery. But as a scout to handle the rest of the draft, he'd be great .

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

This board overrates Wall greatly. Dat, there are winning PGs who are not great athletes. Wall is a great athlete who is not a great PG. His jump shot is not the best thing going. He has cost the Wizards games in the past. My inclination is trading him could be the best move. His knee could explode and he becomes damaged goods if it does.

nykfan757, I feel your original post.

No offense CCJ, I have mad respect for your ability to sift, 49er style, through the piles of whitenoise available from #15-#60 on draft night, and find legit role players, talents, and even good players, but you've had a weird issue with Wall since he and Cousins were being evaluated 2 years ago, you fixate on his mostly correctable flaws, and consistently lowball what he does well. I've posted grantland's scouting take on him from last year, I've been fair, and have critiqued his issues, largely with shooting, and decisionmaking, but a fair eval of Wall is impossible, because his chief assets, athleticism, speed of play, and pass first playing style are completely at odds with the collection of bricklaying hacks, and idiots that formed the starting lineup, and the key go to players on the bench during his first two seasons.

The situation has been tailor made to minimize his talents, and maximize his defficiencies. If you look closely, and consider what he can do, Wall has the chance to become a franchise level talent, if certain things fall right, or at worst, just become a good to very good PG in this league. He's a far sight better than you think right now, and he has a much higher ceiling, and a far bigger chance of reaching it than Cousins.

I view him as a guy that we may have to trade if he demands out, but that we absolutely shouldn't trade unless our hand is forced by such a trade, or a stunning trade offer that presents a player equally capable of reaching a ceiling as high as Wall's, something that is unlikely, and hugely unlikely now.

As for the Vesely trade idea someone mentioned above your post, in regards to that, I find it pointless, unless the GM changes. There is no way EG is going to admit completely blowing a pick less than 18 months ago, especially considering he was a pet pick that EG had been narrowly focused on in scouting terms for two freaking years. That's another reason to fire his arse, the only way to get decent value back for Vesely is to rid ourselves of the idiot who hitched his wagon to him less than 18 months ago.

Consiglieri, I completely agree.

I'm not being impartial with Wall and there has been a residual since he was on the team with Cousins. I agree with you that virtually everything that's happened with the Wizards has been more contributing to Wall failing than succeeding. I also agree with you on his potential: he might turn out franchise great, but at worst he's good to very good.

blazinskills, how good would Wall be if he had played with Durant these past few seasons, instead of guys like Blatche and Nick Young?

Consiglieri and others, I get that you say I'm lowballing in trade ideas I propose. I don't think so. One, Wall has had a knee injury. Two, the deals I propose involve two for one. I would get a viable young player who is near value for Wall to begin with. I would also obtain a lottery pick. My faith is pretty high in my ability to spot Farieds, Leonards, etc. NIvek's system YODA grades out very well with the way I've picked over the years. The deals I propose are ones I project will turn out in the future.

I remember, even after Kyrie Irving was injured as a senior at Duke but they won it all posting I would trade Wall for the rights to Kyrie Irving and a pick. This board almost everyone thought that was a bad idea. Regardless of any weird hater thing I've got with Wall, I would only want what I think is value in return.

Of course, I could be wrong, too.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I like my 49er analogy even though it's not funny.

CCJ to me is like a 49er, sifting through all the future busts that form the white noise of players projected in that 15-100 area. CCJ has a remarkable ability to find playable talent in the NBA, legit first off the bench guys, and legit starters, sometimes quality starters, with a frequency far better than NBA GM's. There are differences though, NBA GM's look at thousands of players, and evaluate players for all manner of needs, and positions, whereas CCJ tends to look for a handful of guys that he just likes, regardless of position, or need, and then wants. So the requirements of a GM are different, and harder than what CCJ asks himself to do by a longshot, however, there is no denying that like a 49er that's had some success, he finds flecks of gold, if not a strike it rich gold mine. Over the years, there have been a handful of Almondhs, but a lot of Milsapp's, and Farieds.

So I'd hire CCJ to handle my non-blue chip zone. I think he'd be genius at spinning a pick outside the bluechip zone, or in the 2nd round that could start in this league, or be a legit bench player with talent. I'd hire him because I know he'd find value most drafts where 75% of GM's never do (just look at the failure rate of players selected in the zone CCJ has built his reputation on (15-100)) and then I could spin that value into team depth, a starter, or excellent bench player, and quality filler for trades.

I wouldn't have him handle the blue chip zone because I don't like how he rates, and regards player value in the lottery. But as a scout to handle the rest of the draft, he'd be great .

Thanks, Consiglieri, because I think I need to look for the non-blue chip guys any way.

The one thing I believe I could do is look at a team like the Wizards and evaluate needs. This team screams for shooters. They scream for guys who can break down defenders and create. They need a legit-height shot blocker. More than better players, however, they need a visionary coach and a new GM/owner. At this point I look at Ted and Ernie as a package deal.

Most people here would be better at evaluating long-term fiscal prospects when building their team. I wouldn't want all the responsibility of a GM, but I think I could balance a roster and not do what EG did. The Okariza deal was a train wreck from day one.

As far as evaluating blue chips go, I do evaluate guys differently. I think Sam Cassell and Randy Wittman were dunderheads to not appreciate Shelvin Mack. He made two final fours at Butler for a reason. Mack was an effective backup PG and I will be shocked if he doesn't end up back on an NBA roster soon. That said, I loved Norris Cole's game, not Shelvin's coming out of college. Cedric Jenkins and Norris Cole were guys I liked more than Mack. I brought up Mack to say I do like that he has won games and I think he is a winner, if even a backup.

I believe it was very ironic this Washington would waive Mack yet continue to give a lot of minutes to Jan Vesely.

[The Consiglieri]

To be honest, I think ownership was stupid, EG knew exactly what he was doing, and what he was doing was a Norv Turner/Vinny Cerrato styled quick fix maneuver to try and turn a league laughingstock into a 40-45 win team, basically what the sunnier posters here imagined would be our record (pre-injuries). If he accomplished that, he saved his job, and could finally breath easy.

I dont think he's so stupid that he actually thought this trade was in the long term interests of the team, I think he always understood that it was in the long term interests of his job security, and he was more than willing to pull the wool over an ignorant GM's eyes who wanted to be told what he waned to hear, even if it had no basis in reality.

I just don't see it as a possibility that he could be this stupid. He knew Ariza and Okafor were basically cap boondoggles, he just happened t hope that it provided cover for youth and lack of talent in the front court, and added some defense and consistency. With Beal and Wall he probably figured that would be good enough for .500 ball and contention for the 8 seed, rather than a disastrous and moronic move that is exactly what stupid GM's have been doing for 100 years, while the quality ones quietly rebuild and reload, and blow up as needed.

I am sick to death of stupid as hell GM's in this town. Thanks to the heavens that the Nats have a genius, the Redskins have competence, and the Caps have a great drafter/trader, if not team builder. Now we just ned somebody with a clue running the boulez wo will serve the long term interests and utilize metrics and the cutting edge of of modern statistical team building theory.

[hands11]