Game 12: Queens at Pack

[Newz]

1. You don't know that.
2. He doesn't care what we think; nor should he.

I guess I don't get how a celebration can help someone perform better. But that's just me. This seems like a very strange argument made up by you guys to spark a debate.

I don't think he cares either. If I was him I wouldn't care either. So what? It's a sports forum, we are here to talk sports and about the players. I'm sure the whole Packers team could pretty much care less that we think it's awesome they won today. So what?

[whatthe_buck!?]

You don't know how major knee surgery along with a simultaneous and very serious staph infection that could have been career threatening would possibly have changed his career trajectory when what set him apart was elite athleticism, it happened to him at the age of 24. and which upon his return was accompanied by a clearly noticeable drop in athleticism which hasn't to this point returned to his pre injury level??? The same pre injury athleticism that allowed him to set the single game tight end playoff receiving yardage record at 23 against the cards in 2009????? Many of the arguments started at your hands on this forum are just infuriatingly ridiculous smh...

It did happen to him at 24, which means that he should be able to recover from it.

His problem hasn't exactly been getting open, it has been that he can't catch the ball when he is open... which has caused his targets to drop. Rodgers used to just throw the ball up to him more because he had more confidence in him, which is what allowed him to set the record.

Were his hands broken or operated on in that knee surgery? Did I miss something or did he go from having by far the best hands on the team to being a guy who you just expect to drop a pass every game?

Are my comments as "infuriatingly ridiculous" as you bringing up a one game sample of a game against the Cardinals to try and prove your point?

I honestly can't believe I'm getting close to chasing u around the same path so well trodden by u hundreds of times before on this exact same topic. The fact is that ur tactic of trying to get the person you're debating to do all the work outlining what's being debated while u try to flesh out ur own position as little as possible so as to make it easy to semantically morph ur position into whatever is easiest for u to defend based on what ur opponent finally decides to primarily argue is so banal and worn out that I can't believe it's interesting even for yourself at this point. Do you really want me to rehash the other statistical indications besides his cardinal playoff performance that Finley was on a path at 23 years old to have a spectacular career? The ones that others have presented u so many times before? It's basically indisputable that Finleys career trajectory changed dramatically after his knee injury. If u gave me more points to argue other than ur feeling (which i honestly am not sure if u truly believe of not) that Finley did not have HOF potential before his injury I would be more apt to go into deeper detail with u but based on ur history I know that's not how u operate and I therefore don't even want to do anything to give u what u want, which is for someone togo back and forth with u long enough to allow u to end up thinking u successfully argued whatever u decided u wanted ur point to end up being while everyone else just gets exhausted beating their heads against the wall arguing with u or reading all the same old stuff over and over. It's like how u feel about Finley though, maybe if u conceded bad points of yours occationally and weren't always just kind of a d*ck to whoever you're debating maybe I wouldn't be so annoyed by u and maybe u would have a better chance of sucking me into arguing with u so u can get ur nut off debating in circles...

[Newz]

whatthe_buck?!,

You seem to have some sort of built up resentment toward me. Which is fine, I guess. But if you want a post with a bunch of substance that doesn't "make you do all the work" then you can read this one that I just posted and you chose not to respond to:

When Finley set the record you posted about his average YPC that year was at 14.3. The year before it was at 12.3. After his injury he came back and it was at 13.9. So overall he was right at the same level in terms of stretching the field when he came back from the injuries last year. This year he is all of the way down to 11.1.

As he has said himself Cobb is running a lot of the routes that he used to run and still wants to run. Cobb is just a superior option and Finley has lost the trust of the coaching staff and has turned into a guy they use underneath more often. I'm guessing he's also lost a little confidence from Rodgers as you don't see Rodgers just toss the ball up to him in coverage anymore like he used to... because Finley just isn't consistently catching the ball.

Overall I haven't noticed a huge drop off in physical talent or ability since he came back from his injury. I think he has all of the talent to be as good as a guy like Jimmy Graham as a receiver... but he has to catch the damn ball and he has to regain the spot in the line-up to do so, which he won't do unless he stops dropping the ball so much.

That being said even if he does that and can turn into the receiver Graham is, he will likely never be "The best TE in the league" because he isn't much of a blocker... where guys like Gronkowski and Graham are elite receiving targets and also excellent blockers.

I'm not sure if that's "hating on him" or a "circular argument" or any of the other things that you randomly attacked me with. To me those are a bunch of facts via numbers and straight from his mouth... with a few logical conclusions thrown in.

You've randomly came into threads like this a couple times now and spewed a bunch of garbage at me telling me I never post anything of substance. Well there is some substance, so refute it, argue it, do whatever you want with it. I'm up for debating it, but I'm not going to sit here and toss around insults with you or make posts to mock you.

You say I'm being a dick, but you are the one who has followed me into multiple threads and come after me. If I'm that big of a problem for you and you hate reading what I type that much, I suggest you put me on ignore or something.

What I posted above isn't an attempt to "debate in circles" at all. It's just a bunch of facts and a logical opinion. If you don't think so, then you clearly have something against me. I also don't know why you are so bent out of shape about me having an opinion on celebrations... but it is what it is I guess.

[th87]

1. You don't know that.
2. He doesn't care what we think; nor should he.

I guess I don't get how a celebration can help someone perform better. But that's just me. This seems like a very strange argument made up by you guys to spark a debate.

I don't think he cares either. If I was him I wouldn't care either. So what? It's a sports forum, we are here to talk sports and about the players. I'm sure the whole Packers team could pretty much care less that we think it's awesome they won today. So what?

You've never heard of pregame rituals? Like listening to a certain type of music to get hyped up (or calmed down)? Visualizing positive outcomes? This is the exact same thing - he's doing what he thinks he needs to get himself into the game. If he feels better, he'll play better.

And Finley's an entirely different player from 2009-2010. Just go back and watch his athleticism then versus today. I don't know what happened, but something definitely did.

[Newz]

You've never heard of pregame rituals? Like listening to a certain type of music to get hyped up (or calmed down)? Visualizing positive outcomes? This is the exact same thing - he's doing what he thinks he needs to get himself into the game. If he feels better, he'll play better.

I suppose. But what you are basically saying is (if it is helping him play better) something along the lines of:

"If Donald Driver wouldn't have been able to do his first down dance, he would have never been as successful of an NFL player. He couldn't have got into the right state of mind to play."

To me that's just ridiculous. I guess maybe it's true, but I personally don't buy into it.

[whatthe_buck!?]

whatthe_buck?!,

You seem to have some sort of built up resentment toward me. Which is fine, I guess. But if you want a post with a bunch of substance that doesn't "make you do all the work" then you can read this one that I just posted and you chose not to respond to:

When Finley set the record you posted about his average YPC that year was at 14.3. The year before it was at 12.3. After his injury he came back and it was at 13.9. So overall he was right at the same level in terms of stretching the field when he came back from the injuries last year. This year he is all of the way down to 11.1.

As he has said himself Cobb is running a lot of the routes that he used to run and still wants to run. Cobb is just a superior option and Finley has lost the trust of the coaching staff and has turned into a guy they use underneath more often. I'm guessing he's also lost a little confidence from Rodgers as you don't see Rodgers just toss the ball up to him in coverage anymore like he used to... because Finley just isn't consistently catching the ball.

Overall I haven't noticed a huge drop off in physical talent or ability since he came back from his injury. I think he has all of the talent to be as good as a guy like Jimmy Graham as a receiver... but he has to catch the damn ball and he has to regain the spot in the line-up to do so, which he won't do unless he stops dropping the ball so much.

That being said even if he does that and can turn into the receiver Graham is, he will likely never be "The best TE in the league" because he isn't much of a blocker... where guys like Gronkowski and Graham are elite receiving targets and also excellent blockers.

I'm not sure if that's "hating on him" or a "circular argument" or any of the other things that you randomly attacked me with. To me those are a bunch of facts via numbers and straight from his mouth... with a few logical conclusions thrown in.

You've randomly came into threads like this a couple times now and spewed a bunch of garbage at me telling me I never post anything of substance. Well there is some substance, so refute it, argue it, do whatever you want with it. I'm up for debating it, but I'm not going to sit here and toss around insults with you or make posts to mock you.

You say I'm being a dick, but you are the one who has followed me into multiple threads and come after me. If I'm that big of a problem for you and you hate reading what I type that much, I suggest you put me on ignore or something.

What I posted above isn't an attempt to "debate in circles" at all. It's just a bunch of facts and a logical opinion. If you don't think so, then you clearly have something against me. I also don't know why you are so bent out of shape about me having an opinion on celebrations... but it is what it is I guess.

Lmao this is crazy. For the sake of my own sanity and the sanity of every member of this forum I refuse to do the Finley thing with u. Listen carefully. We can never know for sure if Finleys current production level is the same It would have been if he had never suffered the injuries that he did. I can readily admit the possibility that with out the injuries he's suffered he could have ended up the exact same player he is now. Similarly, u should be able to admit the possibility that without his injuries he might have ended up being a much better player than he currently is. I doubt u would ever do that, but the fact is even if u did there isn't much further to go beyond that. What's funny is that I only ended up posting in this thread to point out the irony I saw in your criticism of Finley for doing something other packers have done without drawing ur ire, and the reason u gave for differentiating between ur attitude towards Finley vs others (which boils down to ur feeling that he is a d*ck) is the exact same reason that I differentiate my attitude towards u vs other posters. Maybe it was mean spirited, but if I didn't feel that many of ur posts are similarly mean spirited towards people u disagree with I wouldn't have responded to in this thread at all. I have to say it is a testament to ur impressive skill at sucking people into stupid arguments that u were almost able to steer me into a Finley debate from my original point of entry into this thread. I'm in awe sir...

[WRau1]

Finley is poop.

[RiotPunch]

Finley is hot, steamy poop.

FIFY, and +1.

[Newz]

Maybe his injuries have something to do with it. I haven't seen a huge physical difference, but I think it could have impacted him mentally as I stated before when talking with Grendon.

Like I posted before if my posts are that terrible and I'm that awful to read they make an ignore feature on the website for a reason. You are basically saying that your sole purpose for coming into this thread was to tell me that I'm a dick.

I'm glad that it means that much to you that I know your opinion as opposed to you just ignoring me. You must get something out of my posts since you keep reading them and felt compelled to come into a thread and insult me. Or you must value my opinion... or you must think that you are making me sad by posting what you posted.

Kind of a strange reason to come into a thread though, especially responding to a post you had nothing to do with and dragging the discussion way off topic. I only wish that one day I can contribute as much to this forum as you do.

[whatthe_buck!?]

Maybe his injuries have something to do with it. I haven't seen a huge physical difference, but I think it could have impacted him mentally as I stated before when talking with Grendon.

Like I posted before if my posts are that terrible and I'm that awful to read they make an ignore feature on the website for a reason. You are basically saying that your sole purpose for coming into this thread was to tell me that I'm a dick.

I'm glad that it means that much to you that I know your opinion as opposed to you just ignoring me. You must get something out of my posts since you keep reading them and felt compelled to come into a thread and insult me. Or you must value my opinion... or you must think that you are making me sad by posting what you posted.

Kind of a strange reason to come into a thread though, especially responding to a post you had nothing to do with and dragging the discussion way off topic. I only wish that one day I can contribute as much to this forum as you do.

You know what? I think a big part of it is that when I see u start to discuss anything to do with Finley it just drives me temporarily insane. I don't like the way Finley acts and I agree he is douche, but reading your posts about him give me unpleasant flashbacks to many ruined threads in years past. I couldn't help myself.

[Newz]

You know what? I think a big part of it is that when I see u start to discuss anything to do with Finley it just drives me temporarily insane. I don't like the way Finley acts and I agree he is douche, but reading your posts about him give me unpleasant flashbacks to many ruined threads in years past. I couldn't help myself.

I would say I messed up some threads back then.

I wouldn't put that all on me though. I just had a different opinion than the overwhelming majority. It'd be like if someone came on the forum now and tried to say that Randall Cobb wasn't destined to be a great WR in the NFL or that Casey Hayward really isn't that good of a player.

It is what it is. The overall argument was that I thought it was too soon to crown Finley the best player at his position and some people disagreed with me... and Finley was always kind of a lightning rod so a lot of threads got sidetracked. He was one of those players where people just didn't want to hear anything negative about him.

I dunno... I don't feel happy about being "right" (even though that jury is still out on that. Finley is still young and talented, he could easily still become an excellent NFL player with his skillset). I'm wrong about plenty of **** too.

[xTitan]

I am wondering if anyone seen the comments of Jerry Fontenot this week, Fontenot is the TE's coach. Fontenot said that Finley will become a bigger part of the offense when he ends up where he is supposed to be at the time he is supposed to be there. Finley didn't hurt his brain, just his knee....he isn't smart enough to be trusted, runs poor routes, along with all the other mental mistakes.

I would like to pat many of us on the back who wanted Barclay to be the right tackle, Barclay had 2 holding penalties which need to be cleaned up, but he did a very good job in pass protection and was downright awesome in his run blocking. I hope when Lang comes back he is installed at his guard position, where he belongs.

[Marley2Hendrix]

I am wondering if anyone seen the comments of Jerry Fontenot this week, Fontenot is the TE's coach. Fontenot said that Finley will become a bigger part of the offense when he ends up where he is supposed to be at the time he is supposed to be there. Finley didn't hurt his brain, just his knee....he isn't smart enough to be trusted, runs poor routes, along with all the other mental mistakes.

I would like to pat many of us on the back who wanted Barclay to be the right tackle, Barclay had 2 holding penalties which need to be cleaned up, but he did a very good job in pass protection and was downright awesome in his run blocking. I hope when Lang comes back he is installed at his guard position, where he belongs.

fwiw, one of the holds was pure bs, no? I believe it was when finley chipped barclay's man resulting in the guy basically falling over which then led to the flag. Regardless though, I hear you on the Barclaymaker.

[trwi7]

Coming up tomorrow on As Realgm Turns. Will Newz and DrugBust make up? Who will make the game thread for the Lions game? Will Daffy fap again? Tune in to find out.

[ReasonablySober]

I'm gonna make up with your mom.

[Newz]

I'm gonna make up with your mom.

HEYYYYOOOOOO!!!!

Also, DB and I never fight. Whilst we were squabbling on here he posted the greatest picture known to man on Facebook. I could never be mad at him after that.

[Kerb Hohl]

I am wondering if anyone seen the comments of Jerry Fontenot this week, Fontenot is the TE's coach. Fontenot said that Finley will become a bigger part of the offense when he ends up where he is supposed to be at the time he is supposed to be there. Finley didn't hurt his brain, just his knee....he isn't smart enough to be trusted, runs poor routes, along with all the other mental mistakes.

I would like to pat many of us on the back who wanted Barclay to be the right tackle, Barclay had 2 holding penalties which need to be cleaned up, but he did a very good job in pass protection and was downright awesome in his run blocking. I hope when Lang comes back he is installed at his guard position, where he belongs.

I'm not defending Finley's mental play, and maybe he just lost it when he tried to become "elite" or something. That said, in 2008/2009/early 2010 he rarely seemed to mess up that much. He was a consistent machine for a very small amount of time. Now, he's been a complete mess. I wonder what caused it.

That said, he's been productive the last 3 games. The other thing I'd like to see from him is where he is dominant on the outside against a corner in the redzone. That 2009 highlight video reminded me of how unguardable he was on the outside.

[humanrefutation]

I'd like to see Finley get some more jump balls, to be honest. If there is one thing he was always great at back in his beast-mode era, it was the ability to just simply out-jump and out-physical every defensive back he was matched up with.

[crkone]

MM mixing up the coaches could be an issue also. I remember Finley having issues learning routes so McAdoo had him moving life size dummies around like chess pieces. McAdoo is a great teacher and did wonders with the TEs.

[Newz]

I used to really like the idea of throwing up jump balls to Finley too. He woud just outphysical guys and go up and get them. I still think he can do that... but I honestly just don't have confidence in him to catch the ball.

I think his drops and overall lack of consistency are what is hurting him more than anything else. I think the coaching staff and Rodgers has lost a certain amount of confidence in him. He doesn't even run the same routes as he used to... he's just a guy who kind of lingers underneath and gets a bunch of short dump offs.

I mean he's only averaging 11 yards per catch this year. He's A LOT more explosive than that, even if you believe the injury took something away from him.