Race to the MVP.

[Volcano]

just wondering..is there a reason Melo's averaging like 2 APG with the highest usage rate in the league? I mean..it seems like every guard/wing is blowing him out of the water in this regard with lower usage rates. His assist ratio is lower than a lot of big men too.

[omerome]

just wondering..is there a reason Melo's averaging like 2 APG with the highest usage rate in the league? I mean..it seems like every guard/wing is blowing him out of the water in this regard with lower usage rates. His assist ratio is lower than a lot of big men too.

It's because of the team's ball movement. Melo doesn't get credit for the assist when the guy he passes the ball to passes it to another teammate who is more open.

[J0rdan4life42o]

I dont think Knick fans want anyone feeling bad for them. They're just stating facts. Fact is, Melo is having an MVP caliber statistical year thus far, as early as it is, and it has directly affected his teams 12-4 record. That doesn't mean he should be considered the favorite for MVP so far, but it most certainly puts him in th discussion. Anything less just sounds bitter and biased. And since we're talking about facts, heres another one for you...the Knicks haven't lost more than 2 regular season games in a row for 40 games now. Feel free to retract your last silly statement.

This is sad -- people finding arbitrary or pointlessly technical ways to use stats.

Right before the said "40 regular season games", the Knicks were on a 6-game losing streak. And in the post-season, they were humiliated by Miami, including a 3-game losing streak and one of the most lopsided games in playoff history. These are also facts.

Here's another fact: LeBron has won MVP every year since 2009 except for the one season when he received backlash for leaving Cleveland. Facts, right?

Another example of a poster not being thorough or thinking things through before responding to someone on the GB...if you would have read the post I quoted, it was in response to the poster stating the following...

Whatever the case, the Knicks haven't proven they can be a winning team. OKC, MIA, and SAS all get the benefit of the doubt in this category. Everyone can see the Knicks going on a 3-5 game losing streak more than the other teams.

It was very relevant to state that the Knicks have yet to lose more than 2 in a row during the regular season for 40 games now (since Woodson took over), to show how misinformed and inaccurate he was in his statements. That's all. Just take the time to read next time before jumping the gun and calling people out.

[kamelion4291]

just wondering..is there a reason Melo's averaging like 2 APG with the highest usage rate in the league? I mean..it seems like every guard/wing is blowing him out of the water in this regard with lower usage rates. His assist ratio is lower than a lot of big men too.

It's because of the team's ball movement. Melo doesn't get credit for the assist when the guy he passes the ball to passes it to another teammate who is more open.

I would LOVE for you to show me that Melo has a lot of hockey assists. In the first handful of Heat games, LeBron had ~23 hockey assists while the next highest on the team was single digits. You'd have a hard time finding an example of someone who has very low assist numbers, but very high hockey assist numbers. That sounds more like something you've made up because it's not easily proven so you hope people are just going to take your word for it.

[omerome]

I would LOVE for you to show me that Melo has a lot of hockey assists. In the first handful of Heat games, LeBron had ~23 hockey assists while the next highest on the team was single digits. You'd have a hard time finding an example of someone who has very low assist numbers, but very high hockey assist numbers. That sounds more like something you've made up because it's not easily proven so you hope people are just going to take your word for it.

If you have NBA Leaguepass Broadband, the evidence is right there. Watch a game or three for yourself.

I have seen the games to say this. I have even heard some announcers mention that while Melo doesn't always get the assist, he is a big reason why the team gets open shots. How else do you think guys can shoot at these percentages? With a hand in their face? No. It's because of ball movement. And Melo is a big part of it.

[Tron Carter]

just wondering..is there a reason Melo's averaging like 2 APG with the highest usage rate in the league? I mean..it seems like every guard/wing is blowing him out of the water in this regard with lower usage rates. His assist ratio is lower than a lot of big men too.

It's because of the team's ball movement. Melo doesn't get credit for the assist when the guy he passes the ball to passes it to another teammate who is more open.

I would LOVE for you to show me that Melo has a lot of hockey assists. In the first handful of Heat games, LeBron had ~23 hockey assists while the next highest on the team was single digits. You'd have a hard time finding an example of someone who has very low assist numbers, but very high hockey assist numbers. That sounds more like something you've made up because it's not easily proven so you hope people are just going to take your word for it.

Where's the statistical data that LeBron had 23 hockey assist?

Also you do know LeBron handles the ball a lot more then Carmelo in terms of controlling and initiating offense while Melo just basically passes out of double teams.

[Clyde Frazier]

just wondering..is there a reason Melo's averaging like 2 APG with the highest usage rate in the league? I mean..it seems like every guard/wing is blowing him out of the water in this regard with lower usage rates. His assist ratio is lower than a lot of big men too.

It's because of the team's ball movement. Melo doesn't get credit for the assist when the guy he passes the ball to passes it to another teammate who is more open.

I would LOVE for you to show me that Melo has a lot of hockey assists. In the first handful of Heat games, LeBron had ~23 hockey assists while the next highest on the team was single digits. You'd have a hard time finding an example of someone who has very low assist numbers, but very high hockey assist numbers. That sounds more like something you've made up because it's not easily proven so you hope people are just going to take your word for it.

We have 3 pure PGs on the roster, which is the main reason carmelo is playing as well as he is right now (compare that to none for the majority of last season). Many times we'll have 2 PGs on the court at the same time, which is why the ball movement's been great thus far. When carmelo moves the ball within the offense, it may not even end up being a hockey assist. Could be the pass that leads to the pass that leads to the score.

Your negative bias towards carmelo is pretty amazing, by the way. I'm not touting him as the leading MVP candidate, because he isn't, but you don't seem to be willing to give him any credit at all for having a great season thus far. If he continues to play well and the knicks continue to post a ~top 5 record, he'll be in the discussion. You seem rather bitter about that. I commend some other posters who don't feel the need to belittle him just because he isn't top 2 in the race.

[kamelion4291]

I don't have a bias against Carmelo. Feel free to give him to me and I'll laud his play on the Heat. I just can't tolerate excuses. The Knicks' 2 biggest wins of the season, against Miami and San Antonio, Carmelo was 10-28 against Miami, and had 9 points against San Antonio. I feel like this is a classic case of downplaying your other contributions on the team to prop up a case for Carmelo being a top 3 MVP candidate. That was the go-to move for Kobe fans for years. I've read enough of the Knicks forums the last 2 seasons to realize when this "guys are getting good shots because of Carmelo" is pure garbage.

How many times did Knick fans point out last season that they had nobody to run the offense because you were starting Douglas, then Lin, then neither against Miami in the playoffs? Now all of a sudden after getting Felton back and Kidd, it's Carmelo who is getting guys shots? Why wasn't this happening when Bibby was the point guard? If Carmelo was getting the attention then like he is now, it shouldn't have changed anything unless you're telling me your point guards were so incompetent that they didn't even know how to do a swing pass to a wide open shooter off of a double team.

You said it yourself. You have 3 pure PGs on the roster now, but many people are trying to attribute the Knick's improved offensive performance to the attention Carmelo receives when he's ALWAYS received that kind of attention. He's not a scrub.

[TheKingOfVa360]

just wondering..is there a reason Melo's averaging like 2 APG with the highest usage rate in the league? I mean..it seems like every guard/wing is blowing him out of the water in this regard with lower usage rates. His assist ratio is lower than a lot of big men too.

It's because of the team's ball movement. Melo doesn't get credit for the assist when the guy he passes the ball to passes it to another teammate who is more open.

I would LOVE for you to show me that Melo has a lot of hockey assists. In the first handful of Heat games, LeBron had ~23 hockey assists while the next highest on the team was single digits. You'd have a hard time finding an example of someone who has very low assist numbers, but very high hockey assist numbers. That sounds more like something you've made up because it's not easily proven so you hope people are just going to take your word for it.

I've seen every Knicks game on league pass besides one, Melo gets a ton of hockey assists. Watch a few games and track them yourself. Plus he's playing PF, he's not going to average 4 assists. With two pg's on the floor at a time Melo's job isn't to be a playmaker.

[JordansBulls]

Going by stats, James is clearly MVP thus far... 24/9/7 is damn near avg of triple double... And not a Rondo triple double either...

If you go by stats then Durant is the mvp thus far. He leads in Win Shares and is 2nd in WS/PER 48 minutes and 2nd in PER.

[PCProductions]

Going by stats, James is clearly MVP thus far... 24/9/7 is damn near avg of triple double... And not a Rondo triple double either...

If you go by stats then Durant is the mvp thus far. He leads in Win Shares and is 2nd in WS/PER 48 minutes and 2nd in PER.

But he's second in PER... to Lebron. Also, it's easier to have more win shares when you've played more games. To say that Durant "leads by stats" is misleading. It's pretty close, with a slight edge to KD because of his superior steal rate and Def Rtg.

[JordansBulls]

Going by stats, James is clearly MVP thus far... 24/9/7 is damn near avg of triple double... And not a Rondo triple double either...

If you go by stats then Durant is the mvp thus far. He leads in Win Shares and is 2nd in WS/PER 48 minutes and 2nd in PER.

But he's second in PER... to Lebron. Also, it's easier to have more win shares when you've played more games. To say that Durant "leads by stats" is misleading. It's pretty close, with a slight edge to KD because of his superior steal rate and Def Rtg.

True, but Durant is 2nd in WS/PER 48 minutes while Lebron is 6th. So even if Lebron has him in PER, Durant is 2nd in that. So the gap that Durant has right now is a little bigger.

[kamelion4291]

Let's look at some names that have more defensive win shares than LeBron James: David Lee, Carlos Boozer, Greg Monroe.

Are you really married to that stat? Do you think it's a coincidence that Memphis has 5 players in the top 20 of defensive win shares? 3 Pacers in the top 20? 3 OKC players in the top 20? That's a team-skewed stat if I've ever seen one.

[28reloaded]

And Anthony Davis is currently 4th in PER. Is he MVP worthyesque? Every advanced stat points towards Durant being the MVP other than PER, where he trails James by a minuscule amount.

[Protoss]

You are a really bad poster, here and on ISH. PER is more valuable than any other individual statistic. You know very well that Davis' case is not the same -- he's played a small number of games, and his team has a losing record (two of the most important criteria for MVP).

If Davis played almost all of the games with his PER in tact, and the Hornets had a .700 record (rookie, major win improvement), yes he would be a very serious candidate for MVP.

[kamelion4291]

And Anthony Davis is currently 4th in PER. Is he MVP worthyesque? Every advanced stat points towards Durant being the MVP other than PER, where he trails James by a minuscule amount.

For the 1,000,000th time, you post advanced stats that deal with PER and minutes, skewing them towards Durant, yet you post them anyway either because you're ignorant or you're just trolling.

[TheGarden]

Voters will not go to advanced stats and choose a winner, thank you

[Benedict_Boozer]

Voters will not go to advanced stats and choose a winner, thank you

This. It's fun to debate but John Hollinger might be the only guy who is referencing advanced stats for his vote..if you're stats are good enough to be in the conversation, that's all that matters. Team record and story line will be the separators.

[PCProductions]

2011 Derrick Rose is proof that advanced stats don't mean much to a lot of voters.

[JordansBulls]

2011 Derrick Rose is proof that advanced stats don't mean much to a lot of voters.

2005 and 2006 and 2008 as well if that is the case.