Some rumors I've been hearing

[League Circles]

The notion that we're simply better off without Boozer is absurd IMO. For losing Boozer to not hurt us, that means both of these things need to be true:

1) Because we've just signed Taj and Mirotic is pretty clearly in our significant, core, long term plans (and rightly so given how hard it is to get ahold of prospects that good especially with pro experience), any PF we'd get in return, must, IMO, be similar in skill/production to Boozer/Taj, AND have a contract that expires by 2014

2) Any SG/wing we might receive would have to CLEARLY be an upgrade from RIP, Belinelli, Jimmy and Kirk, AND have a contract that expires by 2014, because there is no way the Bulls are going to pass up on the chance to have a team of Rose, Noah, Taj, Deng, Mirotic, Butler, Teague, Bobcats pick, 2 more Bulls picks (2013 and 2014), plus room mid level player in 2014. That's the baseline scenario IMO for 2014 - amnesty Boozer, use the cap space to sign Mirotic and resign Deng, and go like this:

5: Noah, Bulls 2014 pick, room mid level player
4: Mirotic, Taj
3: Deng, Butler
2: Bobcats pick, Bulls 2013 pick
1: Rose, Teague, vet minimum

That's why there is a 2014 plan. The above is essentially the WORST case scenario IMO, and is awesome and young, built for the long haul.

[League Circles]

I don't get at all why people want to trade Boozer for lesser players. Boozer isn't good, but he's better and much harder to replace that Reddick, big Baby, guys like that. Reddick is small, not young, and not good. And he's probably worse than BOTH RIP and Butler, frankly. But much more importantly, you can always, IMO, get an MLE SG of his caliber. You definitely can't always get a big man of Boozer's caliber. Even if Taj starts and Boozer plays 20 mpg, he's still much more valuable than a redundant, mediocre SG IMO.

[AirP.]

I'm ready to move Boozer for pretty much anything. He's a bandaid for the team every once in a while, the rest of the time he's got to be fustrating to play with on a team that stresses defense. Not only that but he does disappear in crunch time.

This team needs to expose how bad their offense is and rebuild from that. Boozer will not be a difference maker in the playoffs for the Bulls. He's giving the Bulls 13 PPG in the playoffs, I'm more then comfortable cutting his contract in half getting 2 players especially if one of those players can be a long term piece for the Bulls. Smaller contracts have to be easier to move for better players for your system then one huge contract.

[League Circles]

The kind of players we can likely get for Boozer without including picks will be players that have no positive trade value, but are just worse players with better contracts than Boozer. I can't understand how this is good, or why they will be more movable than Boozer. The only reason players are trade in this league is if they are good or if their trade clears cap space for some team involved. nobody wants to give anything of value for people like Big Baby and Reddick, because there might not be a team in the league that doesn't believe it has BOTH a better SG prospect AND a better PF prospect than Reddick and Baby, IMO. If we needed a mid size contract to match a big deal (something like Taj plus a mid size contract for a big time player), then I'd understand the logic, but we already have plenty of flexible, expirings deals, including mid sized ones in RIP and Kirk, so it's not of need to us.

I can understand wanting to get rid of Boozer for anything if you believe that Vlad is better than Boozer and/or if you want to tank, otherwise I don't get it.

[AAU Teammate]

I don't get at all why people want to trade Boozer for lesser players. Boozer isn't good, but he's better and much harder to replace that Reddick, big Baby, guys like that. Reddick is small, not young, and not good. And he's probably worse than BOTH RIP and Butler, frankly. But much more importantly, you can always, IMO, get an MLE SG of his caliber. You definitely can't always get a big man of Boozer's caliber. Even if Taj starts and Boozer plays 20 mpg, he's still much more valuable than a redundant, mediocre SG IMO.

I would agree with this if not for two things......

(1) Year 3 of the CBooz contract just has to be seen as a serious roadblock to our success. It's going to be an older player with a big salary slot, and that does impede Derrick's championship prime window.

(2) Sure you are likely getting back players that potentially do not have Carlos' high highs, but if you get back mediocre-to-OK talent, you probably are still upgrading the defense in whatever minutes Carlos is off the court. I'm a Boozer supporter, but even I have to admit that he gives back many points that he scores, and thus is someone you have to use judiciously.




Also you may be a little hard on Reddick here.

[BIGGIEsmalls 23]

I don't get at all why people want to trade Boozer for lesser players.

Few on this board believed that Boozer even had trade value, so being able to trade him at all is a good thing. Rather you are pro-Boozer or anti-Boozer, this board pretty much agrees that he's not part of the Bulls future plans. With that being said, I was always in the camp that believed he indeed had trade value & I would love to eliminate him via trade, rather than using our amnesty on him.

[League Circles]

Everybody has trade value, trade value only exists in relative form.

I always knew there were many ways to trade Boozer, for lesser players. you can do that with most players in the NBA.

While it's easy to argue that Boozer gives up as many points as he scores, that ignores two things:

1) If Boozer played against backups, which no one is stopping us from doing, he probably would up his differential

2) Boozer's jumper provides scoring and more importantly spacing that few PFs provide, and definitely not Noah or Taj.

The only good argument I can see to dump Boozer is if you really don't think he's good enough to be in the NBA. Trades should always be driven by what you want, not what you don't want. Seeing as how we can amnesty him at any moment over the next three years, wanting cap space can't really be a reason to want him gone, so thus, the reasons to want him gone, should, IMO, be getting a better player. Or to tank (getting a better player in the draft), but I don't think it would be easy or smart to tank.

[AAU Teammate]

Everybody has trade value, trade value only exists in relative form.

I always knew there were many ways to trade Boozer, for lesser players. you can do that with most players in the NBA.

While it's easy to argue that Boozer gives up as many points as he scores, that ignores two things:

1) If Boozer played against backups, which no one is stopping us from doing, he probably would up his differential

2) Boozer's jumper provides scoring and more importantly spacing that few PFs provide, and definitely not Noah or Taj.

The only good argument I can see to dump Boozer is if you really don't think he's good enough to be in the NBA. Trades should always be driven by what you want, not what you don't want. Seeing as how we can amnesty him at any moment over the next three years, wanting cap space can't really be a reason to want him gone, so thus, the reasons to want him gone, should, IMO, be getting a better player. Or to tank (getting a better player in the draft), but I don't think it would be easy or smart to tank.

Well stated...but the amnesty brings additional costs of its own...as in, still having to pay (probably) most of what he's owed after the bids are in

So are we to ignore the benefits a trade nets us in 2014 (or earlier) in avoiding lux tax costs? Granted, we dont know how cheap Jerry wants to be in 2014..........but one has to imagine he'll take full advantage of free agent dollars allotted to him under the tax, since that's what he did the year they got Wallace and the year they got Booz/Korv/Brew


Also trades should never be just "what you want." You need to be flexible and creative. We took in things we didn't want (Drew Gooden/Larry Hughes).....but they just happened to be a little more moveable than Ben Wallace would have been...........and later we parlayed that into a future move for things we DID want (Brad Miller/John Salmons).

In the NBA, sometimes you have to be flexible on Monday in order to get back to a position of power on Friday.

[BIGGIEsmalls 23]

^^^^^^Do you believe that Boozer is part of the Bulls future plans, Gar Paxdorf?

If not, trading his contract makes the future brighter. Your only other two options are:

a) Being stuck with his contract that prevents the Bulls from getting better.

b) Using your one-time amnesty to get rid of him for no return.

Keep in mind that I'm a supporter of Boozer.

[Mech Engineer]

I feel like the fear of losing Boozer's productivity is a lot more than it should be. Somehow, the feeling is if the Bulls lose Boozer(by trade, amnesty or whatever), the offense from his position will drop to "zero" or to the worst PF levels in the league.

If it helps the Bulls long term in terms of playing Taj more to get his offense going by running some plays for him or playing him more minutes or maybe getting another rookie type(ex: a Malcom Thomas type) to learn the offense/defense, what is the point of getting inconsistent production from Boozer? His time was in the last 2 years or this year if Rose was healthy. That time is done now whether he did well or not. He is not going to be a main piece when the Bulls contend again.

[League Circles]

Yes, he's in their future plans this year and next, and possibly beyond that depending on many factors, though I doubt it.

[League Circles]

The wallace trade was based in wanting to get him off the team because he was an actual cancer. ALL trades can be broken down to what each team wants, not what they lack to want (Boozer now, for instance).

A good reason to want Boozer gone is to tank, but I doubt it would have enough of an effect. I think it's more likely we win the title THIS year with him than tank into a high lottery pick by dumping him.

[JordansBulls]

If Orlando had interest in Boozer I am quite sure we would have traded him and Taj for Dwight even if Dwight only stayed for a year.

[AirP.]

The wallace trade was based in wanting to get him off the team because he was an actual cancer. ALL trades can be broken down to what each team wants, not what they lack to want (Boozer now, for instance).

A good reason to want Boozer gone is to tank, but I doubt it would have enough of an effect. I think it's more likely we win the title THIS year with him than tank into a high lottery pick by dumping him.

Doesn't Boozer hurt the team overall because of how bad his defense(on a defensive team) is? The only problem I see with Boozer not being on this current roster is the amount of pressure the other players may have on the offensive end. Defensively I believe the team gets much better, not gaping hole near the basket but on offense no jumper from the PF to rely on. Of course the Bulls would really be bad on offense, but they'd be so much stronger in comparison on the defensive end.

I hope in the future the FO makes sure that any roster coached by Thibs has bigs who can play average or better defense, bigs can erase a lot of mistakes that the paremeter players make on defense.

[bentheredengthat]

I feel like the fear of losing Boozer's productivity is a lot more than it should be. Somehow, the feeling is if the Bulls lose Boozer(by trade, amnesty or whatever), the offense from his position will drop to "zero" or to the worst PF levels in the league.

The way you said this made me realize something. Never in the period of time Boozer has been here, when he's on the bench do I ever remember saying to myself "I sure wish Boozer was in the game - we really miss his scoring right now".

Which is scary because we really do often need scoring But he's just not plug-in scoring. He's once in a while scoring if things go just right for him.

So I like how you called it "the fear of losing Boozer's productivity". Puts it into perspective for me.

[Mech Engineer]

I feel like the fear of losing Boozer's productivity is a lot more than it should be. Somehow, the feeling is if the Bulls lose Boozer(by trade, amnesty or whatever), the offense from his position will drop to "zero" or to the worst PF levels in the league.

The way you said this made me realize something. Never in the period of time Boozer has been here, when he's on the bench do I ever remember saying to myself "I sure wish Boozer was in the game - we really miss his scoring right now".

Which is scary because we really do often need scoring But he's just not plug-in scoring. He's once in a while scoring if things go just right for him.

So I like how you called it "the fear of losing Boozer's productivity". Puts it into perspective for me.

Exactly right. If he was like Ben Gordon type who scored in bunches and mostly was bad at everything else, the Bulls would gladly take it. He is not doing that.

And the bigger problem is because of Rip's defensive problems and Thibs's rotating defense, his impact of not rotating gets magnified on the current Bulls.

[amares goggles]

A year ago I watched a game with the Reinsdorf's at Jerry's home in Arizona. I know Michael's kids from a sports program.

Michael - (Boozer blows a layup) "great job boozer, too bad we're stuck with him"
Me - "yeah, but he was putting up big numbers in Utah"
Michael - "thats cause he was playing with Deron Williams"

He's right. Rose is no where near Deron's level when it comes to passing. Deron will make Boozer much better. Would be a good trade. I know it's random for me to bring this up now, but this thread triggered my memory about the discussion.

[kodo]

Doesn't Boozer hurt the team overall because of how bad his defense(on a defensive team) is? The only problem I see with Boozer not being on this current roster is the amount of pressure the other players may have on the offensive end. Defensively I believe the team gets much better, not gaping hole near the basket but on offense no jumper from the PF to rely on. Of course the Bulls would really be bad on offense, but they'd be so much stronger in comparison on the defensive end.

We're the 4th best D in the league after losing Asik. And the difference in points per 100 possessions at the top 4 is razor thin:

99.0
99.8
100.2
100.3 <-- CHI

Less than 1 FG difference between us & #1.

How much better would we get on D? We can't assume that every shot Boozer gives up, Taj would have cleanly blocked without fouling or altered. Taj is not even close to a DPOY big man like Dwight Howard.

I'm also surprised nobody has brought up the rebounding loss we would have with dropping Boozer for Taj. Per 36 minutes:
Boozer: 11.8 rebounds
Taj: 8.4 rebounds

Rebounding is as much a part of the Bulls success as defense. Boozer this year has become the Bull's best rebounder, and by far & away the best defensive rebounder.

Boozer: 19.1% TRR
Taj: 13.6% TRR

Boozer: 28.5 DRR
Taj: 19.5 DRR

I'm all for upgrading Boozer like everyone else, but i'm absolutely not in the camp that Taj is that upgrade. We take 1 step forward on defense and take 2 steps backwards on scoring & rebounding.

And what about the PF minutes Taj doesn't play? 48 minutes of Boozer+Taj is one thing, now we're looking at 48 minutes of Taj + Radmanovic? That's going to be an overall loss in every category.

If there's any change without a major trade, I would just alter lineups so Boozer comes off the bench & Taj starts. But I don't see any scenario where the team is better off by just amnestying Boozer or DNP-CD'ing him.

[League Circles]

To me, it seems like some people want Boozer gone because they think that is the only way to get Taj to play more minutes than him. It's not. People who feel that way should instead advocate Thibbs playing Taj as the starter and more minutes. That's fine and all, of course Taj needs to improve his 12 and 8 per 36 to something higher to justify playing him more - you know, something like Boozer's 17 and 12. Eh, I shouldn't appeal to stats cause I only believe in the eye test, but the bottom line is that both players started the year in a shooting slump, and neither player can likely be traded right now for a better player than they are.

[PistolP]

We're the 4th best D in the league after losing Asik. And the difference in points per 100 possessions at the top 4 is razor thin:

99.0
99.8
100.2
100.3 <-- CHI

Less than 1 FG difference between us & #1.

How much better would we get on D? We can't assume that every shot Boozer gives up, Taj would have cleanly blocked without fouling or altered. Taj is not even close to a DPOY big man like Dwight Howard.

Well, besides the eye test, there has consistently been about a 10pt difference in DefRating between Taj and Boozer, even this season where Taj doesn't have Asik as his partner in crime. Our defense is good in spite of Boozer, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be better...much better actually.