Why I like Andrea Bargnani- An alternative perspective

[Y0DA]

I like that OP put some effort and thought into his post but don't like that his argument is fatally flawed. For example:

1. I don't think someone can concede that Bargnani's individual performance is poor but he somehow makes up for it in "intangibles", or unmeasurable contributions to the team. Bargnani is not the Shane Battier sort of player.
2. +/- is not a better way to measure Bargnani's performance, or a method to give credence to the notion he brings the "intangibles". His +/- only prove that the starters play better than the bench. I think most starters show a better +/- for the team when they're on the floor vs. off it.
3. I'm not sure how the OP can go from conceding that Bargnani's individual stats are poor, but then claim his +/- story is "good" because of his offensive talent. Given that PER is essentially an offensive talent measure, he can't be both poor and brilliant at the same time.

[andrej perboski]

Little going on at SG offensively? DD is our leading scorer

Do you know who scored more points in NO last season?
Belinelli

Bye Highness

Belinelli didn't score more points per game than DeRozan last season. He scored 11 points per game, DeRozan is averaging 18.4

Are you Appel?

Belinelli was the best scorer in NO (780 points), plain and simple

Then "When a low talented player is your best scorer, your team is in trouble"

P.s. No

[JWiLL02]

So you like Andrea for his "intangibles"...ones that only apply to one side of the floor and seem to have little to no impact on winning basketball games.

Well, thanks for that.

[driveshaft]

Awesome first post OP,

Good job on the article, nice to see you supported it with research. The article might have been a little bit lengthy. Also consider your audience (RealGM) and you are really overwhelming your target audience with stats. There is a reason basketball journalist never use advanced statistical analysis. Also like peopl;e havee stated you have some sample size issues, so why not go back and look at last year?

If you look at his last 2 years, he has been a net positive player for us. He was definately our leader last year, and although that doesn't say much, he is not the huge paperweight everyone heer seems to think he is.

I suggest everyone look away from the statistics and just watch Bargnani and Davis for 3 Quarters of the game. Track their defensive coverages. When Bargs is spacing the floor, who's guarding him, are they taking advantage of mismatch opportunities, etc. Are players getting more drives to the baskett, etc. What is Davis's role on offensive sets?

It's easier to see the intagibles players bring to the game when you are actually at the game. TV really doesn't show you that much, but you can still gleam the intangibles.

[KnickerBonkerz]

I wanted to read it all, I really did... but as soon as I realized that you don't seem to understand pretty much the ENTIRE team and coaching staff HAS changed MULTIPLE times to try and accomadate Bargnani and we NEVER end up with a winning team. You don't surround a guy like Bargnani, he's a piece that you surround a real star player with. Most likely in an off the bench scoring role.

[Truthrising]

That 13 game Bargnani was just mirage, he's pretty much let me and all Raptors fans down and I think it's time for him to gtfo this team. It's better for him and us as an organization.

I don't think it was a fluke. His advanced stats those games were significantly better all across the board compared to his career. Some players go through hot shooting streaks, but their advanced stats see little consequence. However Bargnani really was a different player.

He's literally the Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde of the basketball world.

i don't think he's jerky and Hyde as you say, I think the biggest difference was that last year Bargnani actually had cared about his conditioning in the offseason, if he was smart he would know that he's a much better player when he's cut down on the weight - meaning he's a lot more mobile and easier to attack the net. Coming into the beginning of this season it just seemed like he really didn't put too much work into his conditioning as you could be looked a lot more bulky. It just the lack of motivation in himself to become a better player which I'm pretty disappointed in cause I always thought he had the talent the only thing is his drive to improve.

[Thelonious]

I wasn't aware that basketball is only played on one side of the floor.


edit: even if you want to take an offense only approach, whatever positive impact he brings with his "spacing" is somewhat taken away by the fact that he is an inefficient scorer who takes terrible shots. if a guy is starting on your team for the exclusive purpose of scoring/offense, he HAS to be reliable and consistent, Bargnani has never been that.

If that's not absolute ignorance, I don't know what is.

The OP clearly demonstrates that Bargnani is a positive in terms of scoring differential since the season opener. Not even going to debate why, it just is.
I'll give you a tip: The team with the positive scoring differential wins the game.

I like that OP put some effort and thought into his post but don't like that his argument is fatally flawed. For example:

1. I don't think someone can concede that Bargnani's individual performance is poor but he somehow makes up for it in "intangibles", or unmeasurable contributions to the team. Bargnani is not the Shane Battier sort of player.
2. +/- is not a better way to measure Bargnani's performance, or a method to give credence to the notion he brings the "intangibles". His +/- only prove that the starters play better than the bench. I think most starters show a better +/- for the team when they're on the floor vs. off it.
3. I'm not sure how the OP can go from conceding that Bargnani's individual stats are poor, but then claim his +/- story is "good" because of his offensive talent. Given that PER is essentially an offensive talent measure, he can't be both poor and brilliant at the same time.

Did you skip the words "he stretches the floor" by any chance?

[Kabookalu]

i don't think he's jerky and Hyde as you say, I think the biggest difference was that last year Bargnani actually had cared about his conditioning in the offseason, if he was smart he would know that he's a much better player when he's cut down on the weight - meaning he's a lot more mobile and easier to attack the net. Coming into the beginning of this season it just seemed like he really didn't put too much work into his conditioning as you could be looked a lot more bulky. It just the lack of motivation in himself to become a better player which I'm pretty disappointed in cause I always thought he had the talent the only thing is his drive to improve.

I've always thought that bulking up was a mistake for him this season, but it shouldn't have hindered him so badly that he's reverted back to this state. Last season he really was playing with a lot of passion and fire, something I haven't seen from him ever. TLC has a quote in his sig mocking a poster saying how Bargnani looking like he wants to rebound is a sign of his upcoming, but I don't think that's entirely a joke. The amount of effort he was exerting and passion he was showing this season compared to last is night and day.

[TCHOKE]

cool story bruh

[Thelonious]

Bargs is the anti-blue collar player. I can see why people hate him, and I'm often one of them. But failing to objectively evaluate his impact in a strictly basketball sense is a mistake pure and simple.

[Truthrising]

i don't think he's jerky and Hyde as you say, I think the biggest difference was that last year Bargnani actually had cared about his conditioning in the offseason, if he was smart he would know that he's a much better player when he's cut down on the weight - meaning he's a lot more mobile and easier to attack the net. Coming into the beginning of this season it just seemed like he really didn't put too much work into his conditioning as you could be looked a lot more bulky. It just the lack of motivation in himself to become a better player which I'm pretty disappointed in cause I always thought he had the talent the only thing is his drive to improve.

I've always thought that bulking up was a mistake for him this season, but it shouldn't have hindered him so badly that he's reverted back to this state. Last season he really was playing with a lot of passion and fire, something I haven't seen from him ever. TLC has a quote in his sig mocking a poster saying how Bargnani looking like he wants to rebound is a sign of his upcoming, but I don't think that's entirely a joke. The amount of effort he was exerting and passion he was showing this season compared to last is night and day.

I think part of the reason he had fire last season is partly due to the fact he respected coach Casey and also the fact Casey had told Bargnani to lead the team last yr which also gave him extra motivation, this year I don't think it's the same in terms of Bargnani taking on the leadership role and it seems like he's taking a backseat to it. It sto doesn't excuse him that whatever role he's given he should thrive to become a better player.

[Kabookalu]

I think part of the reason he had fire last season is partly due to the fact he respected coach Casey and also the fact Casey had told Bargnani to lead the team last yr which also gave him extra motivation, this year I don't think it's the same in terms of Bargnani taking on the leadership role and it seems like he's taking a backseat to it. It sto doesn't excuse him that whatever role he's given he should thrive to become a better player.

I agree. I've always thought that Bargnani needed a coach to respect, or one that was defensive minded that wouldn't let him get off easy, to push him. Seeing him blossom those first couple of games really affirmed that for me. This season it's been the opposite and it's just about shattered all of my beliefs in Bargnani. I've always thought that the key to getting the all star out of him could have been manipulated with the proper conditions, but now I've accepted that it's just a cycle that's bound to happen regardless.

[Thelonious]

i don't think he's jerky and Hyde as you say, I think the biggest difference was that last year Bargnani actually had cared about his conditioning in the offseason, if he was smart he would know that he's a much better player when he's cut down on the weight - meaning he's a lot more mobile and easier to attack the net. Coming into the beginning of this season it just seemed like he really didn't put too much work into his conditioning as you could be looked a lot more bulky. It just the lack of motivation in himself to become a better player which I'm pretty disappointed in cause I always thought he had the talent the only thing is his drive to improve.

I've always thought that bulking up was a mistake for him this season, but it shouldn't have hindered him so badly that he's reverted back to this state. Last season he really was playing with a lot of passion and fire, something I haven't seen from him ever. TLC has a quote in his sig mocking a poster saying how Bargnani looking like he wants to rebound is a sign of his upcoming, but I don't think that's entirely a joke. The amount of effort he was exerting and passion he was showing this season compared to last is night and day.

I think part of the reason he had fire last season is partly due to the fact he respected coach Casey and also the fact Casey had told Bargnani to lead the team last yr which also gave him extra motivation, this year I don't think it's the same in terms of Bargnani taking on the leadership role and it seems like he's taking a backseat to it. It sto doesn't excuse him that whatever role he's given he should thrive to become a better player.

Personally, I think last year the organization managed to convince Bargnani that it was the breakout year for the Raptors, to finally make noise in the playoffs and go from there. I think that's the main reason for his engaged play in that stretch of games. Since the Utah triple overtime travesty of a game it's clear the Raptors aren't supposed to go anywhere this season, unless you consider getting swept by the 1st seed an achievement. What if Bargnani was just disgusted by the state the NBA is in, let alone that of the Raptors franchise...

[Romaniano]

Clearly you like making witty comment with inappropriate language and like to enlarge them too.

Warned

[Thelonious]

^ Clearly you need to practice your wit

[fatal9]

I wasn't aware that basketball is only played on one side of the floor.


edit: even if you want to take an offense only approach, whatever positive impact he brings with his "spacing" is somewhat taken away by the fact that he is an inefficient scorer who takes terrible shots. if a guy is starting on your team for the exclusive purpose of scoring/offense, he HAS to be reliable and consistent, Bargnani has never been that.

If that's not absolute ignorance, I don't know what is.

The OP clearly demonstrates that Bargnani is a positive in terms of scoring differential since the season opener. Not even going to debate why, it just is.

I'll give you a tip: The team with the positive scoring differential wins the game.

I'll give you a tip: learn to use stats properly, there's a LOT of noise in this data.

The OP's post is utter nonsense and doesn't demonstrate anything that a person with common sense can't pick apart. +/- data is heavily prone to lineup biases, when you take some of those biases out with a regression based +/- stat like RAPM which attempts to account for the collinearity that goes on with set rotations (eg. starters tend to play with starters), Bargnani doesn't look so hot (it has it's own set of biases but is WAY better than simple +/-). He has never scored as a positive impact player for this team...why? Because his defense is in the gutter and you don't even need a stat to tell you that. Even offensively, he only looks like a slight positive (as you'd expect), but not enough to justify the minutes he plays and praise people like OP try to throw on him. He gives you spacing sure, but considering he is an offense only/terrible defensive type player, his role as a starter is questionable because he isn't reliable night in night out (inconsistent/inefficient) and overall doesn't give your offense enough of a lift to make up for what an atrocious defender/rebounder he is.

OP's justification is basically: "Raptors suck with Bargnani on the court, but they suck a lot more with him off it," which depends on things like lineups, how strong your bench is and things like that. It doesn't mean he is a positive impact player as a starter on this team or most teams.

I'll give you another tip: learn the game and use your eyes. there's a lot of (bad) stats plastered over the internet that need to be placed in context.

[22haytham22]

Bargs is a very, very good player and we are lucky to have him. No idea why he gets so much hate. He's one of the top offensive big men in the league, period. Big whoop, his defense and rebounding is not the best, well he's just on the opposite end of the spectrum to players like howard and ibaka who have 0 offense but elite defense, and they are valued by fans across the league.

bargs just needs the correct pieces around him, he is a top 20 talent in the league

Wow....

[Thelonious]

I wasn't aware that basketball is only played on one side of the floor.


edit: even if you want to take an offense only approach, whatever positive impact he brings with his "spacing" is somewhat taken away by the fact that he is an inefficient scorer who takes terrible shots. if a guy is starting on your team for the exclusive purpose of scoring/offense, he HAS to be reliable and consistent, Bargnani has never been that.

If that's not absolute ignorance, I don't know what is.

The OP clearly demonstrates that Bargnani is a positive in terms of scoring differential since the season opener. Not even going to debate why, it just is.

I'll give you a tip: The team with the positive scoring differential wins the game.

I'll give you a tip: learn to use stats properly, there's a LOT of noise in this data.

The OP's post is utter nonsense and doesn't demonstrate anything that a person with common sense can't pick apart. +/- data is heavily prone to lineup biases, when you take some of those biases out with a regression based +/- stat like RAPM which attempts to account for the collinearity that goes on with set rotations (eg. starters tend to play with starters), Bargnani doesn't look so hot (it has it's own set of biases but is WAY better than simple +/-). He has never scored as a positive impact player for this team...why? Because his defense is in the gutter and you don't even need a stat to tell you that. Even offensively, he only looks like a slight positive (as you'd expect), but not enough to justify the minutes he plays and praise people like OP try to throw on him. He gives you spacing sure, but considering he is an offense only/terrible defensive type player, his role as a starter is questionable because he isn't reliable night in night out (inconsistent/inefficient) and overall doesn't give your offense enough of a lift to make up for what an atrocious defender/rebounder he is.

OP's justification is basically: "Raptors suck with Bargnani on the court, but they suck a lot more with him off it," which depends on things like lineups, how strong your bench is and things like that. It doesn't mean he is a positive impact player as a starter on this team or most teams.

I'll give you another tip: learn the game and use your eyes. there's a lot of (bad) stats plastered over the internet that need to be placed in context.

I don't have a problem with this last post of yours, but my objection was to your initial post where for whatever reason you seem to imply that +/- is an offensive stat.

edit: I might add that starters tend to be defended by starters, and bench players by bench players.

[Kabookalu]

I'll give you a tip: learn to use stats properly, there's a LOT of noise in this data.

The OP's post is utter nonsense and doesn't demonstrate anything that a person with common sense can't pick apart. +/- data is heavily prone to lineup biases, when you take some of those biases out with a regression based +/- stat like RAPM which attempts to account for the collinearity that goes on with set rotations (eg. starters tend to play with starters), Bargnani doesn't look so hot (it has it's own set of biases but is WAY better than simple +/-). He has never scored as a positive impact player for this team...why? Because his defense is in the gutter and you don't even need a stat to tell you that. Even offensively, he only looks like a slight positive (as you'd expect), but not enough to justify the minutes he plays and praise people like OP try to throw on him. He gives you spacing sure, but considering he is an offense only/terrible defensive type player, his role as a starter is questionable because he isn't reliable night in night out (inconsistent/inefficient) and overall doesn't give your offense enough of a lift to make up for what an atrocious defender/rebounder he is.

OP's justification is basically: "Raptors suck with Bargnani on the court, but they suck a lot more with him off it," which depends on things like lineups, how strong your bench is and things like that. It doesn't mean he is a positive impact player as a starter on this team or most teams.

I'll give you another tip: learn the game and use your eyes. there's a lot of (bad) stats plastered over the internet that need to be placed in context.

There's nothing wrong with what the OP said. This team is worse without Bargnani. The problem is that this is a team that is reliant on him.

[whysoserious]

First off, let me say great effort by the OP and I appreciate you taking the time.

The fact remains that Bargs is just not a good basketball player that is being featured in a much larger role than he capable of fulfilling. As long as the Raptors try to make him or treat him like a lead player, this organization will never be successful. Trade him or move him to a role he can be successful in - meaning the bench as a scorer for instant offense!

Also, you started this thread with why you like him and proceeded to stats, where are the thigns you like about him?

I can talk about many facets of his game that I don't like, please tell us what you like.

What I don't like..

his energy and engagement
his lack of efficient offense
his lack of leadership on the court
he doesn't have enough offensive moves (3 point shot, pump-fake and drive or draw foul, and a post with a move to the centre, always one way...that's it. he has other things but
lack of rebounding
lack help defines
he's not aware defensively
he has not changed his game or improved it, he's the same player they don't show up enough to be considered parts of his game, he just has these three things)
lack of rebounding
lack help defense
he's not aware defensively
he has not changed his game or improved it, he's the same player