The Trade Thread

[mrknowitall215]

Ramon Sessions isn't better than no Ben Gordon. Sessions just had a hot start to the season while Gordon had a slow start. While Sessions is sizzling down, Gordon is catching fire. No doubt, Sessions is a better game manager/ball handler than Gordon, but he doesn't have the same game-changing ability. All this talk about Sessions coming to the Bobcats to be close to home is just icing. The cake is that he thought it would be his best chance to finally get a steady starting gig with longevity because all of the pundits had Kemba written down as a backup PG in the making and destined to struggle as much as his rookie campaign.

Now, regarding the trade, Jordan Hill is a physical frontcourt presence and still relatively young at 25 years old. Hill is a much better player than advertised. If you were to use advanced stats and things of that nature instead of going off his limited minutes and perception as a bust or less than serviceable big, you would see that his per 36 numbers would put him among the more productive centers in the league. Hill could easily be a 13 points, 10 rebounds, & 2 blocks per game player.

[SWedd523]

Ramon Sessions isn't better than no Ben Gordon. Sessions just had a hot start to the season while Gordon had a slow start. While Sessions is sizzling down, Gordon is catching fire. No doubt, Sessions is a better game manager/ball handler than Gordon, but he doesn't have the same game-changing ability. All this talk about Sessions coming to the Bobcats to be close to home is just icing. The cake is that he thought it would be his best chance to finally get a steady starting gig with longevity because all of the pundits had Kemba written down as a backup PG in the making and destined to struggle as much as his rookie campaign.

You're certainly right about Ben Gordon having game-changing ability. He has single-handed turned wins into losses with his late game follies, While Sessions on the other hand has come up big in crunch time a few times already this season.

And perhaps Gordon's start was the norm and he's just in a hot streak while Sessions' start was the norm and this is a slump? You're getting awfully certain with that statement.

Gordon has no place on this roster. Henderson and Taylor are more than enough to man the SG slot for the rest of the season while Sessions is the primary backup at Kemba (while also having the ability to swing to SG). Trade Gordon and Taylor gets more minutes. Trade Sessions and Higgins gets more minutes. Seems like a fairly easy choice for me.

Now, regarding the trade, Jordan Hill is a physical frontcourt presence and still relatively young at 25 years old. Hill is a much better player than advertised. If you were to use advanced stats and things of that nature instead of going off his limited minutes and perception as a bust or less than serviceable big, you would see that his per 36 numbers would put him among the more productive centers in the league. Hill could easily be a 13 points, 10 rebounds, & 2 blocks per game player.

You want a great reason why those per36 numbers are wholly unreliable, especially if you're trying to extrapolate from 14.6 mpg?

Jordan Hill has scored 13 points in a game a grand total of........ 13 times in his career. (13/176)
Jordan Hill has grabbed 10 rebounds in a game a grand total of... 9 times in his career. (9/176)
Jordan Hill has blocked 2 shots in a game a grand total of... 25 times in his career. (25/176)

How many times has he gone for 13/10/2 in the same game? Once.


But he could easily average those numbers if given the minutes?

[thruthefire]

Well, there's also the fact that BG is making $12.4 million compared to Sessions' $5MM to consider. Sessions will always be easily tradable, while Gordon's trade value hasn't been this high in years.

[Kembastockton]

Just because a player can be traded easily doesn't mean that it would be a good idea to trade him. Good productive players on reasonable contracts is what we want.

Gordon's value will be even higher next year when he is an expiring. Who knows then we might be able to pull off another Corey Maggette on someone.

[SWedd523]

Paul Mokeski -- 10/9/1 per36 (actually a 4/3/0.4 player)
Gana Diop -- 5/10/3 per36 (actually a 2/4/1 player)
Jake Voskuhl -- 10/9/1 per36 (actually a 4/3/0.4 player)
Tractor Traylor -- 12/10/2 per36 (actually a 5/4/1 player)
Michael Doleac -- 12/8/1 per36 (actually a 5/3/0.4 player)
Jordan Hill --13/11/2 per36 (actually a 5/4/0.6 player)


What do all of those guys have in common? Big men who averaged between 14-15 minutes who look much better than they actually are when you try and extrapolate to 36 minutes.

[mrknowitall215]

Paul Mokeski -- 10/9/1 per36 (actually a 4/3/0.4 player)
Gana Diop -- 5/10/3 per36 (actually a 2/4/1 player)
Jake Voskuhl -- 10/9/1 per36 (actually a 4/3/0.4 player)
Tractor Traylor -- 12/10/2 per36 (actually a 5/4/1 player)
Michael Doleac -- 12/8/1 per36 (actually a 5/3/0.4 player)
Jordan Hill --13/11/2 per36 (actually a 5/4/0.6 player)


What do all of those guys have in common? Big men who averaged between 14-15 minutes who look much better than they actually are when you try and extrapolate to 36 minutes.

Those guys have nothing in common, because Jordan Hill is still better than each of them even by per 36 numbers. Hill would be more productive and efficient if traded to the Bobcats than the current starting PF/C, Byron Mullens. That's all I'm saying.

[catch20two]

Paul Mokeski -- 10/9/1 per36 (actually a 4/3/0.4 player)
Gana Diop -- 5/10/3 per36 (actually a 2/4/1 player)
Jake Voskuhl -- 10/9/1 per36 (actually a 4/3/0.4 player)
Tractor Traylor -- 12/10/2 per36 (actually a 5/4/1 player)
Michael Doleac -- 12/8/1 per36 (actually a 5/3/0.4 player)
Jordan Hill --13/11/2 per36 (actually a 5/4/0.6 player)


What do all of those guys have in common? Big men who averaged between 14-15 minutes who look much better than they actually are when you try and extrapolate to 36 minutes.

I'm on board with wanting Jordan Hill too. You threw Diop in there as if he's not a capable defensive big that can rebound. He rebounds and block shots for us in limited minutes. The problem is that he's out of shape and can't throw a rock in the ocean. Hill is every bit of physical as Diop but a much better scorer without the belly and can get up and down the court.

[SWedd523]

You threw Diop in there as if he's not a capable defensive big that can rebound. He rebounds and block shots for us in limited minutes. The problem is that he's out of shape and can't throw a rock in the ocean. Hill is every bit of physical as Diop but a much better scorer without the belly and can get up and down the court.

Would you trade Sessions for Diop?

I didn't think so. That's the point.

[JT2006]

Just because a player can be traded easily doesn't mean that it would be a good idea to trade him. Good productive players on reasonable contracts is what we want.

Gordon's value will be even higher next year when he is an expiring. Who knows then we might be able to pull off another Corey Maggette on someone.

This is the post that makes the most sense to me. Gordon will be more valuable next year as an expiring vet with the skills to get a good team points off the bench than he is now as a big contract with 45% 3pt shooting attached to it. We might be able to get some youth from a team who can't afford to spend the time developing it. This year we'd be looking at a non-prospect in Hill. He seems like he's the player he's going to be already, which is still better than Tyrus Thomas but not really worth chasing after. These kind of guys can be had in free agency (Sessions and Haywood are in this tier, for example).

[catch20two]

You threw Diop in there as if he's not a capable defensive big that can rebound. He rebounds and block shots for us in limited minutes. The problem is that he's out of shape and can't throw a rock in the ocean. Hill is every bit of physical as Diop but a much better scorer without the belly and can get up and down the court.

Would you trade Sessions for Diop?

I didn't think so. That's the point.

You're not even trying to make sense. You'll bend it however which way to make your point seem reasonable. I never said that Diop was on the same plane as Hill because Hill is serviceable and well Diop isn't.

[JT2006]

You threw Diop in there as if he's not a capable defensive big that can rebound. He rebounds and block shots for us in limited minutes. The problem is that he's out of shape and can't throw a rock in the ocean. Hill is every bit of physical as Diop but a much better scorer without the belly and can get up and down the court.

Would you trade Sessions for Diop?

I didn't think so. That's the point.

You're not even trying to make sense. You'll bend it however which way to make your point seem reasonable. I never said that Diop was on the same plane as Hill because Hill is serviceable and well Diop isn't.

If you're going to say that Hill can provide what Diop can (as a reason to trade for him) we'll need more than "without a belly" to go with it. We've had a somewhat healthy Diop and even that wasn't worth trading for.

[Bassman]

Have to agree with those who point out Jordan Hill "being who he is". I liked the guy as a prospect but he's on his second team and not advancing beyond a capable role player. We've got too many of those. Sessions is more valuable to us now and into the future based on his skill set and his reasonable contract, and he wanted to be here! That sounds trivial, but in a place where few free agents want to come to, that can be important down the road. Gordon is valuable but if someone wanted to offer us a quality big for him (maybe overpriced big but without a crazy long contract) I'd consider it.

Odds are we're stuck with the bigs we've got this season. I don't see a scenario developing where a good starting-caliber 5 or 4 can get dealt for our marginal players, even if we included one of our pics. Best possibility is to look for the right team match, where their excess in quality bigs is an imbalance with their need for a SG. Henderson is still our best option to deal, unless we're willing to overpay him later or lose him for nothing.

[catch20two]

You threw Diop in there as if he's not a capable defensive big that can rebound. He rebounds and block shots for us in limited minutes. The problem is that he's out of shape and can't throw a rock in the ocean. Hill is every bit of physical as Diop but a much better scorer without the belly and can get up and down the court.

You're not even trying to make sense. You'll bend it however which way to make your point seem reasonable. I never said that Diop was on the same plane as Hill because Hill is serviceable and well Diop isn't.

If you're going to say that Hill can provide what Diop can (as a reason to trade for him) we'll need more than "without a belly" to go with it. We've had a somewhat healthy Diop and even that wasn't worth trading for.

I did if you can read.

[catch20two]

Either way, it's just a base of opinion. I would do the deal and some of you wouldn't. That's understandable because Hill hasn't really done much but I believe he still has the ability to breakthrough and become a solid big. I'm done with the debate on that subject. It's really not even worth it because I like Sessions and what he brings to our team but I also think we need a young physical body in the paint more.

[thruthefire]

Just because a player can be traded easily doesn't mean that it would be a good idea to trade him. Good productive players on reasonable contracts is what we want.

Thank you, I never would have known that otherwise.

[JT2006]

you're not even trying to make sense. You'll bend it however which way to make your point seem reasonable. I never said that Diop was on the same plane as Hill because Hill is serviceable and well Diop isn't.

If you're going to say that Hill can provide what Diop can (as a reason to trade for him) we'll need more than "without a belly" to go with it. We've had a somewhat healthy Diop and even that wasn't worth trading for.

I did if you can read.

I can, and did, read. I was downplaying your point, you see, using rhetoric. The point remains that you haven't made a significant enough distinction between him and Diop. a "better scorer without the belly and can get up and down the court" is something nearly every active NBA player can claim. Who is a worse scorer than Diop? Who is fatter? Who is slower? Even Eddy Curry is a better scorer, even if he's as fat and slow.

[JT2006]

Either way, it's just a base of opinion. I would do the deal and some of you wouldn't. That's understandable because Hill hasn't really done much but I believe he still has the ability to breakthrough and become a solid big. I'm done with the debate on that subject. It's really not even worth it because I like Sessions and what he brings to our team but I also think we need a young physical body in the paint more.

Yeah, like that Bismack Biyombo guy. Who drafted him? We could trade Hendo for him, he would be a good project big that could break out.

[catch20two]

I can, and did, read. I was downplaying your point, you see, using rhetoric. The point remains that you haven't made a significant enough distinction between him and Diop. a "better scorer without the belly and can get up and down the court" is something nearly every active NBA player can claim. Who is a worse scorer than Diop? Who is fatter? Who is slower? Even Eddy Curry is a better scorer, even if he's as fat and slow.

Let it go. Eddy Curry don't rebound or even try. That's why he's not in the league. The only person saying that Hill and Diop are equivalent is you and if you think that then you are the less sensible person in this argument.

[catch20two]

Either way, it's just a base of opinion. I would do the deal and some of you wouldn't. That's understandable because Hill hasn't really done much but I believe he still has the ability to breakthrough and become a solid big. I'm done with the debate on that subject. It's really not even worth it because I like Sessions and what he brings to our team but I also think we need a young physical body in the paint more.

Yeah, like that Bismack Biyombo guy. Who drafted him? We could trade Hendo for him, he would be a good project big that could break out.

Biyombo has been coming along well lately. And yes, I would trade Hendo for Biyombo if he was on another team and we still lacked frontcourt depth. If I can recall you are the same neanderthal that said that the Lakers aren't interested in trading Hill because of his value to them earlier in the week and now you're trying to justify how he's not worth trading for.

[JT2006]

I can, and did, read. I was downplaying your point, you see, using rhetoric. The point remains that you haven't made a significant enough distinction between him and Diop. a "better scorer without the belly and can get up and down the court" is something nearly every active NBA player can claim. Who is a worse scorer than Diop? Who is fatter? Who is slower? Even Eddy Curry is a better scorer, even if he's as fat and slow.

Let it go. Eddy Curry don't rebound or even try. That's why he's not in the league. The only person saying that Hill and Diop are equivalent is you and if you think that then you are the less sensible person in this argument.

If you could read, you'd see I never said they were equivalent. My comparison to Eddy Curry was to show how bad Diop really is.