Top 25 Players Pt.II - Who's #3?

[treiz]

Well I'm sure we're basing it on everything we know and not just taking this season more significantly

[netsfaninnyc]

d12 when healthy (but then again cp3 isn't really health either)

[NyCeEvO]

Are we basing this on "as of right now" or "when healthy"?

Well I'm sure we're basing it on everything we know and not just taking this season more significantly

Actually, this is "right now".

I'm going along with my original plan in which we'd do this at the beginning of the season and at the end of the season.

I think it would be interesting to see how our rankings change from season to season and from the beginning of the season to the end of the season.

All votes should be measured toward who you think is #3 right now.

[treiz]

Oh ok I was taking this more as a "if I was to build a team who would I take with the 3rd pick".

But if that's the case then, CP3

[NyCeEvO]

We done here?

Considering the Lakers struggles and CP3 still balling, I'm leaning towards CP3.

[enetric]

Dwight, easily. Not even close in fact, at least for me.

This guy is probably playing at about 80% max right now and is still at worst a leader in a debate with other great players. That to me speaks volumes.

Dwight isnt even the best player on his team.

[enetric]

Everyone healthy...

3- Paul
4- Wade
5- Kobe

I will get around to putting Dwight's overrated ass in the next 5. While I think guys like Shaq are way too hard on Dwight...its not without merit that there are aspects of his game offensively which should be heavily criticized. Defensively...he is a beast. No argument there.

Footnote: It pains me that I have to move Melo into the next 5 when prior to this year I had him closer to 15. But the Nix are built to his strengths...and he is showing all of them. The reality is underneath it all the ugly Melo is still there. But for now...he deserves a big bump up. Getting a kick DOWN my list? Our very own Dwill. Franchise player MY ASS!

(Yeah...its a hit and run post. But that's all i have time for right now...lol. Enjoy the madness!)

[vincecarter4pres]

Everyone healthy...

3- Paul
4- Wade
5- Kobe

I will get around to putting Dwight's overrated ass in the next 5. While I think guys like Shaq are way too hard on Dwight...its not without merit that there are aspects of his game offensively which should be heavily criticized. Defensively...he is a beast. No argument there.

Footnote: It pains me that I have to move Melo into the next 5 when prior to this year I had him closer to 15. But the Nix are built to his strengths...and he is showing all of them. The reality is underneath it all the ugly Melo is still there. But for now...he deserves a big bump up. Getting a kick DOWN my list? Our very own Dwill. Franchise player MY ASS!

(Yeah...its a hit and run post. But that's all i have time for right now...lol. Enjoy the madness!)

Agree with you on Melo, but I'll say what I always say. Melo is a guy who's play fluctuates from year to year like no other player in this league(well maybe our very own Deron lol) and there have been times I've had him as high as maybe 6xth best player in the league and there are year's like last season where I had him somewhere in the 14 to 17 range.

Amazingly talented but he doesn't always put pen to paper.

And yeah, right now I'd probably have D Will somewhere in the 15 to 25 range on the season, although he's still a top 8 level talent. I haven't sat there and made a list yet this year, at least since maybe October before the season started, I think I'm just going to go through this with the threads before I make my own all the way through.


Can't agree on Dwight, we never seem to agree on him, you in general seem to be in the ultra small minority on him as a player. Not saying you're wrong, but you pull no punches, you've gone as far as just in the last couple seasons to say he's barely a top 15 player. Personally I just can't agree, although his personality doesn't rub me as a title winner. But then I think back to him carrying a team to the Finals and think if he can simply learn to coexist with other great players and gets back close to 100% health wise we're going to see a period in January or February and forward where the Lakes ripoff a couple double digit win streaks and don't lose more then 2 games in a row more then once again for the rest of the way.

[Im Coming Home]

Right NOW, its Melo. Now even close.

[vincecarter4pres]

Right NOW, its Melo. Now even close.

I can't agree with this at all, he's at best 6xth to me. I'd say if I really went through it he's probably 7th.

Dwight, Chris Paul and Kobe are all definitely still better.

After that you can argue him, Westbrook, Wade or Duncan with ease.

[jeff1624]

Howard isn't 100% and that's the ONLY reason he hasn't cemented himself in these rankings yet.

Kobe Bryant is having a better statistical season than 'Melo, but his team isn't winning therefor I have no problem ranking him lower.

Tim Duncan... YES, Tim Duncan is also having a better statistical season thus far AND his team has a better record than the Knicks. He should also be in the conversation.

Chris Paul has a higher PER despite the MUCH lower usage rate. Better ORTG and DRTG, more WS and a higher TS%.

So... I don't know how Anthony is easily the #3 right now.

[NyCeEvO]

Going....going...gone.

[Im Coming Home]

Howard isn't 100% and that's the ONLY reason he hasn't cemented himself in these rankings yet.

Kobe Bryant is having a better statistical season than 'Melo, but his team isn't winning therefor I have no problem ranking him lower.

Tim Duncan... YES, Tim Duncan is also having a better statistical season thus far AND his team has a better record than the Knicks. He should also be in the conversation.

Chris Paul has a higher PER despite the MUCH lower usage rate. Better ORTG and DRTG, more WS and a higher TS%.

So... I don't know how Anthony is easily the #3 right now.

All the guys you mention all have a #2, and even better #3 than Melo's #2 right now. Not to discredit the other players on the Knicks because they are playing their role to a tee, but Melo is leading his team this season, its nothing against Paul or Duncan, I just feel like neither of them are faced with the double teams and defensive focal points like Melo is night in and night out. If Amar'e was healthy I would drop Melo down but to me right now Melo has a tough time and is exceeding expectations despite having less help.

[NyCeEvO]

Melo isn't having a tough time. He's just dominating right now lol.

He's too quick for PFs and too big and strong for SFs.

The biggest change to his game has been his willingness to pass to the open shooters, which you now have more of anyway.

[Im Coming Home]

Melo isn't having a tough time. He's just dominating right now lol.

He's too quick for PFs and too big and strong for SFs.

The biggest change to his game has been his willingness to pass to the open shooters, which you now have more of anyway.

I meant in the sense that he has a tougher time due to being the only real player who can get his own shot on the team. Felton and Smith are too streaky to be considered better scorers than lets say.. Manu or Tony Parker. Paul has more help too with Blake Griffin and even Crawford is having a monster year and is helping the scoring load as well.

I just think that similar monster numbers + less help > a bit better numbers + more help.

[jeff1624]

While It's true that the Knicks don't have a true #2, (JR Smith had been filling that role for the first 23 weeks but has really struggled as of late) they have the most spacing out of any team in the league and as a team they're shooting it a ridiculous 41% from three... That's one of the reasons he's having such an efficient season so far teams can't afford to double 'Melo all game because the three point shooting would destroy them.

That being said he's playing out of his mind right now and absolutely deserves to be in MVP conversations. I may hate the Knicks with a passion, but that doesn't mean I can't give them the praise they deserve thus far.

It's gonna be interesting to see how the Knicks play once Stoudemire and shumpert come back, though. One needs the ball in his hands to be effective yet is a horrible passer... and the other is a lockdown defender that can't really shoot and is as inefficient as they come.

[jerseyjac]

Melo isn't having a tough time. He's just dominating right now lol.

He's too quick for PFs and too big and strong for SFs.

The biggest change to his game has been his willingness to pass to the open shooters, which you now have more of anyway.

I meant in the sense that he has a tougher time due to being the only real player who can get his own shot on the team. Felton and Smith are too streaky to be considered better scorers than lets say.. Manu or Tony Parker. Paul has more help too with Blake Griffin and even Crawford is having a monster year and is helping the scoring load as well.

I just think that similar monster numbers + less help > a bit better numbers + more help.

I just voted Melo #4 and I failed to mention how much trust he has in his teammates...compared to last year, the trust he has with this team (partial credit to Kidd) and his ability to move the ball and find the open man has made their team chemistry...just like every great player, you have to get other players involved and solidify roles for all...I also believe Woodson has elevated Melo's game placing him at the 4...whether his defender is bigger or smaller, Melo always creates a mismatch...

Still waiting for Amare to accept a bench role, but by far Woodson has instilled the structure for Knicks to succeed...I have a lot respect for him as a coach and the way he gets the job done...

[enetric]

Everyone healthy...

3- Paul
4- Wade
5- Kobe

I will get around to putting Dwight's overrated ass in the next 5. While I think guys like Shaq are way too hard on Dwight...its not without merit that there are aspects of his game offensively which should be heavily criticized. Defensively...he is a beast. No argument there.

Footnote: It pains me that I have to move Melo into the next 5 when prior to this year I had him closer to 15. But the Nix are built to his strengths...and he is showing all of them. The reality is underneath it all the ugly Melo is still there. But for now...he deserves a big bump up. Getting a kick DOWN my list? Our very own Dwill. Franchise player MY ASS!

(Yeah...its a hit and run post. But that's all i have time for right now...lol. Enjoy the madness!)

Agree with you on Melo, but I'll say what I always say. Melo is a guy who's play fluctuates from year to year like no other player in this league(well maybe our very own Deron lol) and there have been times I've had him as high as maybe 6xth best player in the league and there are year's like last season where I had him somewhere in the 14 to 17 range.

Amazingly talented but he doesn't always put pen to paper.

And yeah, right now I'd probably have D Will somewhere in the 15 to 25 range on the season, although he's still a top 8 level talent. I haven't sat there and made a list yet this year, at least since maybe October before the season started, I think I'm just going to go through this with the threads before I make my own all the way through.


Can't agree on Dwight, we never seem to agree on him, you in general seem to be in the ultra small minority on him as a player. Not saying you're wrong, but you pull no punches, you've gone as far as just in the last couple seasons to say he's barely a top 15 player. Personally I just can't agree, although his personality doesn't rub me as a title winner. But then I think back to him carrying a team to the Finals and think if he can simply learn to coexist with other great players and gets back close to 100% health wise we're going to see a period in January or February and forward where the Lakes ripoff a couple double digit win streaks and don't lose more then 2 games in a row more then once again for the rest of the way.

All fair...I respect your reply.

I dont recall ever saying Dwight wasnt top 15. I recall a couple of years ago saying that he wasnt making my top 10...but I think I would have had him in my 15 then. He is in my 10 now..not 5 though. Yes, I am in the minority. But to that I say...the guy is overrated. Another very over rated player by fans? Blake Griffin. People love highlight reel bigs. Big strong dudes who throw it down with power that can throw you a gaudy box score from the 4 or 5 spot. Doesnt mean they are the complete package. Understand that I will always be critical of big men who get points that are self contained. That do not translate into easier offense over 48 minutes for their team. I hit your boy Aldrdige for this too. He is better as the #2 guy. As the number 1...we saw it last season the Portland offense got stagnant. When Lillard is hot this season...that team is worlds better. Aldrdige gets his in flow...and Lillard opens it all up for other players.

My beef with Dwight is still the same as it always was. Defensively he is Mutombo level great. A game changer in the middle as a rebounder and shot blocker. But offensively he is at best a Sean Kemp type another very good, all star good big man fans severely overrated. Dwight's game if you really look at it comes up wanting. I dont want to hear about efficiency or PER crap or any other BS. WATCH THE GAME.

While a guy like Shaq is way too harsh on him and I yell at the set when Shaq expects unrealistic achievements from him...some of the specific criticisms are fair.

A big chunk of his offense comes off put backs. He is not a play starter as in a go to big man. His post game is poor. More than 2 dribbles he is a TO machine. And he does a terrible job of seeing the double team, rotating for a better look. As in...unlike a true elite go to big man who makes the game easier for the rest of his teammates...Dwight's teams have thrived most when they have exaggerated and abused all concepts of 3 point shooting around him...sacrificing drive and kick penetration. Instead of him making those around him better...those around him need to keep the D away to make his life easier. Its a major flaw in his offensive game. MAJOR. And that is where if you really look you will realize that he is no where near a great go to first option big man.

He can put up the numbers...but this guy is not an elite go to big man. He will take his 10 ft's making half of them. And he will have a high % of made buckets. But strip away the transition dunk or two and the put back shot under the hoop each game...how many actual shots did he create off half court offense for you? How many times did he rotate the ball off the blocks for a better look because the D was forced to adjust its coverage after he made 2-3 great moves in a row? You dont see that when you watch him play because he doesnt have that complete true big man's offensive game.


More specifically this guy aint Shaq. The comparisons begin and end with...same nickname, and sucky ft shooter. THE END. Shaq, TD, KG, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing? WORLDS better players than this guy. NOT CLOSE.

He is the best overall center in the game because of his D...but overall he is the best of a lot of mediocrity at this position in the league at this time. That's why I cant take him over an all around stud of a player in CP3. Or Durant, and of course LBJ who to me is simply all world elite all time greatness. Obviously...rings are needed to complete the legacy...but he is the best player we have seen since Shaq in his prime and the best perimeter player I have ever seen not named MJ. And if he is able to overcome and beat all challengers for a few years...I may have to move him ahead of Shaq as well.


After the top 3 of the moment...there are several guys who can contend for the 4th spot. I dont know how you cant put Dwight over his teammate Kobe. Kobe is having a great year that yes I agree...is masking a bit of decline...but still you can certainly watch this team and you know without question who the best player is. I have put Wade in recent years ahead of Kobe...but this year so far...its a joke. Its Kobe by a mile. Overall, Wade as his best...yeah I take him over Dwight.

Then I start to consider Dwight in my next 5. Maybe 6...but not 3-5. Just cant see how to put him there over these other guys when its more of a defensive greatness and an offensive mediocrity. Scoring total points isnt enough. Its how you create for the rest of your team that matters. He isnt among that level of great big men we have seen over the last 25 years. For me...over all things I value and respect its the ability to make others better from your position. A center doesnt have to do it the way a PG does. But there are ways a big man does more than his 20-25 points. The great players impact possession after possession one way or the other. SOme people give more respect to the guy who can take over the game and finish in the last 2 minutes. Not me. I prioritize the guys who impact everyone and everything at all times even if they are ice cold with their shot. Give me MJ, Kidd, KG, LBJ, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Stockton, Barkley. These are the types of guys that blow me away. All different positions but on the floor they impacted everything happening play after play. There are many others and some better than some of the guys I mentioned all time...but just wanted to explain what I think impacts winning the most. Its the guy who impacts others play after play.

[enetric]

Right NOW, its Melo. Now even close.

I can't agree with this at all, he's at best 6xth to me. I'd say if I really went through it he's probably 7th.

Dwight, Chris Paul and Kobe are all definitely still better.

After that you can argue him, Westbrook, Wade or Duncan with ease.

Td is having a great start to his year. But after watching him last season...I am not putting him back in the top 10 just yet. Lets wait and see the year.

[enetric]

Melo isn't having a tough time. He's just dominating right now lol.

He's too quick for PFs and too big and strong for SFs.

The biggest change to his game has been his willingness to pass to the open shooters, which you now have more of anyway.

I meant in the sense that he has a tougher time due to being the only real player who can get his own shot on the team. Felton and Smith are too streaky to be considered better scorers than lets say.. Manu or Tony Parker. Paul has more help too with Blake Griffin and even Crawford is having a monster year and is helping the scoring load as well.

I just think that similar monster numbers + less help > a bit better numbers + more help.

I will say it right now. Even old...if you watch the Knicks...you can still see how and why JKidd is an all time great. He has been the X factor for that team. The guy who once again proves that in any situation, in any offense, with any types of players...he can make others better...he can come up with the big game changing play that you have to have...he is a legend that far transcends stats. He is making such an impact at making life easier for each guy on that team its not funny. All that Melo doesnt do for others...Kidd does leaving Melo to do what he does best. Go one on everyone and not see the big chess board. He can dominate and its not self contained because the IQ around him is elevated. Felton, Chandler and just about everyone else is impacted by what I see Kidd doing for that team. The guy can have a terrible shooting night and just like the old days..he is still impacting the game play after play.