Would you trade Travis d'Arnaud for R.A. Dickey?

[Kurtz]

Yes, that's the part not talked about here - Buck is better than Thole, and much better defensively. If Thole can learn to handle the knuckler, I don't see why Buck couldn't. And we're losing leadership there too.

[Randle McMurphy]

Yes, that's the part not talked about here - Buck is better than Thole, and much better defensively. If Thole can learn to handle the knuckler, I don't see why Buck couldn't. And we're losing leadership there too.

That's because it really isn't worth talking about. There is a negligible difference between the two players and it isn't the interesting or impactful part of the deal at all.

But if you really want to bother to compare two backup catchers, Thole is a better hitter going forward and a bitter pitch framer than Buck. And unlike Buck, he won't be overpaid and is under team control for longer. In addition, he has years of experience catching a knuckleball (something that most catchers have tremendous problems dealing with). As for leadership, I have no idea how anybody here could even begin to measure or judge that intangible. Based on the information available to us, there is no downgrade here.

We must remember that AA didn't even want Buck in the first place...he wanted to keep Mathis. It's no surprise that he took the opportunity to dump him and his contract as soon as he could.

[Randle McMurphy]

Why not sing Edwin Jackson instead?

I'm guessing it's because he's not nearly as good, wouldn't be nearly as impactful in making the Jays an actual WS contender over the next few years, and would presumably cost quite a bit more.

[Double Helix]

It's been said on here and in the papers but if you're going all-in you don't leave part of your stack out of fear you may lose. Rogers has taken a risk here. If we go 80% of the way and don't win a playoff series in 2 or 3 years will they be as likely to spend again?

Granted, I'm a fair weather fan but I'm also exactly the type of guy that they want to excite and bring out to the ball park next year. And I am there after this. I won't be waiting for tickets from friends. I'll be buying some. I'm already thinking about what jersey to buy. If nothing else I'm getting one of the new hats.

The Jays have built up a 90s-esque bandwagon again. It's a great experiment for them as a corporation. Does going all-in have benefits? I hope the city shows them that it does. The window will close. The time to compete for another World Series is now. Forget the future for once as a Toronto sports fan. Live in the now. The goal is to eventually achieve a championship, not to have great prospects indefinitely.

If you've trusted AA this much this far... Trust that Dickey was the best starter he could acquire and trust that knuckleballers age like fine wine. We're going for it all. If we don't succeed at least we'll know it wasn't because we didn't go all-in.

[JN]

Given their payrolls Boston and New York (with a few right moves) could be back to a dominant position in two years time.

The Jays may not have a better chance in the next 5 years to significantly grow their revenue base to somewhat compete with those two powers when they get it back.

This is the right time to go all in. Dickey is the much safer bet over the next three years,

[Looogie]

3/45 is what's being talked about

Richard Griffin says the extension is done, pending physical, the deal should be announced tonight.

[akakalakin]

damn someone lost the vault key at Rogers, wow

[Double Helix]

For those who are angry at the move, perhaps it's important we remember another Travis we all thought would be the the Jays next big superstar prospect, Travis Snider.

I'm only bringing up Snider to help remind how quickly things can change with prospects. Snider was drafted 14th. He was at one point ranked the 6th best prospect in the Majors by Baseball America. He had been ranked 11th the year previous so he was on the same kind of upswing as D'Arnaud. He was the youngest position player in the Majors. He hit home runs early on and looked to be a potential stud in the making and a key part of this team. He mayturn his career around and live up to the hype he once had but it's not looking as likely as it once was. Anything can happen once these guys make it to the majors and teams figure out their weaknesses.

I know many of you were much higher on D'Arnaud's upside positionally and offensively but knee surgery and bulging discs in a catching prospect shouldn't be entirely dismissed, IMO.

Anyway, I get that many of the hard core Jays fans on here have developed a strong connection with D'arnaud after years of reading up on him but hopefully if Dickey's next 3 years are similar to his last we'll be enjoying playoff victories so much that even D'Arnaud reaching his upside won't sting as bad.

[Mad-Eye Moody]

For those who are angry at the move, perhaps it's important we remember another Travis we all thought would be the the Jays next big superstar prospect, Travis Snider.

I'm only bringing up Snider to help remind how quickly things can change with prospects. Snider was drafted 14th. He was at one point ranked the 6th best prospect in the Majors by Baseball America. He had been ranked 11th the year previous so he was on the same kind of upswing as D'Arnaud. He was the youngest position player in the Majors. He hit home runs early on and looked to be a potential stud in the making and a key part of this team. He mayturn his career around and live up to the hype he once had but it's not looking as likely as it once was. Anything can happen once these guys make it to the majors and teams figure out their weaknesses.

I know many of you were much higher on D'Arnaud's upside positionally and offensively but knee surgery and bulging discs in a catching prospect shouldn't be entirely dismissed, IMO.

Anyway, I get that many of the hard core Jays fans on here have developed a strong connection with D'arnaud after years of reading up on him but hopefully if Dickey's next 3 years are similar to his last we'll be enjoying playoff victories so much that even D'Arnaud reaching his upside won't sting as bad.

I don't think many are arguing that prospects are a big gamble...because they absolutely are. Nobody knows who will become stars and who will fade, but it's all about asset management. These guys were our #1 and #3 prospects in one of the best farm systems in the league. To trade that for a 38 year old knuckle baller...I'm not sure it's the best use of the assets. That kind of package should be able to get ANY ace. Felix Hernandez, Cliff Lee, Latos, etc. All these guys are younger and have had a stronger track record than Dickey (except maybe Latos). I'm sure there are many more names, but just listed some off the top of my head.

I'm starting to come around to accepting this deal (mostly because it looks like a done deal), but there is no doubt the Jays overpaid. Did we really need to add in Syndergaard??

[tempests_dawn]

There is a flaw about the logic that this package of prospects should net the Jays ANY ace in the leagues. That's only true if EVERY ace was available for trade. THat's not the case. What other ace is available? How about Cy Young winners?

So whenever an ace IS on the market, the price will be high in any deal (see Latos, Shields, etc.). Jays were in on Latos as well last year, but thought timing was not right as well as the price. Few would debate onthe timing of the Dickey deal after the Marlins blockbuster. If this is the overpay to get Dickey so that another team did not, it's worth the price.

[Jatt]

For those who are angry at the move, perhaps it's important we remember another Travis we all thought would be the the Jays next big superstar prospect, Travis Snider.

^ This. Snider had the can't-miss Jays cleanup hitter for the next decade type hype. After showing glimpses of success at the MLB level, teams did their homework, realized his weakness with hitting an Major League breaking ball and he hasn't shown the ability to make the adjustment since. Prospects are just that, PROSPECTS, anyone who is vehemently against this trade doesn't know the game of baseball. Prospects in baseball still are the shakiest of "sure bets" in all four major sports leagues. Todd Van Poppel anyone? D'arnaud COULD end up being the next Pudge Rodriguez within 3 years time, or he could be the next Randy Myers, you just don't know, what AA DOES know, is he's getting a Cy Young winning knuckleballer who will be able to pitch for us for the next few years at a top-flight level being unloaded by a team in rebuild-mode, you take that deal and run.

[Cyrus]

But one could argue, we traded our ace for similar package who was younger, and in my mind better than RA Dickey is or ever was in Roy Halladay.

We got Travis, Kyle Derek, and what turned out to be Gose.

Yet now we basically giving up a similar package for a guy who is arguably worse, minus one prospect. And we can say Travis has progressed since he was traded for Halladay.

[Double Helix]

For those who are angry at the move, perhaps it's important we remember another Travis we all thought would be the the Jays next big superstar prospect, Travis Snider.

I'm only bringing up Snider to help remind how quickly things can change with prospects. Snider was drafted 14th. He was at one point ranked the 6th best prospect in the Majors by Baseball America. He had been ranked 11th the year previous so he was on the same kind of upswing as D'Arnaud. He was the youngest position player in the Majors. He hit home runs early on and looked to be a potential stud in the making and a key part of this team. He mayturn his career around and live up to the hype he once had but it's not looking as likely as it once was. Anything can happen once these guys make it to the majors and teams figure out their weaknesses.

I know many of you were much higher on D'Arnaud's upside positionally and offensively but knee surgery and bulging discs in a catching prospect shouldn't be entirely dismissed, IMO.

Anyway, I get that many of the hard core Jays fans on here have developed a strong connection with D'arnaud after years of reading up on him but hopefully if Dickey's next 3 years are similar to his last we'll be enjoying playoff victories so much that even D'Arnaud reaching his upside won't sting as bad.

I don't think many are arguing that prospects are a big gamble...because they absolutely are. Nobody knows who will become stars and who will fade, but it's all about asset management. These guys were our #1 and #3 prospects in one of the best farm systems in the league. To trade that for a 38 year old knuckle baller...I'm not sure it's the best use of the assets. That kind of package should be able to get ANY ace. Felix Hernandez, Cliff Lee, Latos, etc. All these guys are younger and have had a stronger track record than Dickey (except maybe Latos). I'm sure there are many more names, but just listed some off the top of my head.

I'm starting to come around to accepting this deal (mostly because it looks like a done deal), but there is no doubt the Jays overpaid. Did we really need to add in Syndergaard??

I think it's important to realize that teams know we're going all in now. That changes things in negotiations. The person or team that wants in any negotiation is the team that has the disadvantage in ANY negotiation. The person or team that has other options and patience on their side always has the upper hand. This is new territory for us and I think AA's earned at least some benefit of the doubt from Blue Jays fans that he window shopped thoroughly and this was the best "all in" move available.

Whenever a trade happens most fans simply look at what was given up for what was acquired and under that criteria I understand the criticism. However, once you consider the following variables...

- Dickey's a knuckleballer like no other before him.
- Three years of elite production in a row and seems to be getting better
- Knuckelballer's age well
- He's coming off a Cy Young win, has a great story, and may help sell tickets more than some other names available. The knuckleball aspect, the Cy Young aspect, the guy's story... it all helps contributes to ticket sales.
- Other aces may not be as available as fans think
- Other teams may have expected even more because they know that we're trying to go all-in
- The contracts and durations of some of the other ace pitchers may have been too high or too long.
- AA seems thorough and has earned some trust
- The window will be closing relatively quickly and the time is now

When you consider all of those factors, I think it's a lot easier to see why this is happening.

[andyo]

At the same time, we had no leverage with Halladay while Dickey was seemingly more then open to reupping with the Mets. Market value also has seemed to increase due to the low turnover rate of prospects in baseball. Keep in mind these points are also withholding several other arguments in support of the trade- I.E timing, division.

[Garmfay]

Olney reports "Hes out of his damn mind," said AL official. I get going all-in but doesn't have to be massive overpayment. I mean TDA was enough but to throw in Syndergaard??

[Jatt]

But one could argue, we traded our ace for similar package who was younger, and in my mind better than RA Dickey is or ever was in Roy Halladay.

One could also argue that RA Dickey has more effective years left as a knuckleball pitcher than Roy does as a ground-ball fastball-changeup-cutter pitcher. Maybe Roy's struggles last year was a blip, but he's also 35.

[TheseSicklyKeys]

But one could argue, we traded our ace for similar package who was younger, and in my mind better than RA Dickey is or ever was in Roy Halladay.

We got Travis, Kyle Derek, and what turned out to be Gose.

Yet now we basically giving up a similar package for a guy who is arguably worse, minus one prospect. And we can say Travis has progressed since he was traded for Halladay.

It wasn't really similar at all though. Drabek was a top ten prospect and TDA and Micheal Taylor were both more highly rated and regarded than Syndergaard. And hell. Look what those guys have amounted to so far. AA made a great value trade at the time, and so have the Mets in this case. But you're still only getting prospects back. Flaming out is one of the most common things they do.

Besides. Comparing the deals in vacuum like that is disingenuous and completely misses the point.

Olney reports "Hes out of his damn mind," said AL official. I get going all-in but doesn't have to be massive overpayment. I mean TDA was enough but to throw in Syndergaard??

Sounds like someone is mad they missed out on TDA or Dickey.

EDIT: Actually, who wants to bet the 'official' was Ferrell?

[agk47]

But one could argue, we traded our ace for similar package who was younger, and in my mind better than RA Dickey is or ever was in Roy Halladay.

We got Travis, Kyle Derek, and what turned out to be Gose.

Yet now we basically giving up a similar package for a guy who is arguably worse, minus one prospect. And we can say Travis has progressed since he was traded for Halladay.

It wasn't really similar at all though. Drabek was a top ten prospect and TDA and Micheal Taylor were both more highly rated and regarded than Syndergaard. And hell. Look what those guys have amounted to so far. AA made a great value trade at the time, and so have the Mets in this case. But you're still only getting prospects back. Flaming out is one of the most common things they do.

Besides. Comparing the deals in vacuum like that is disingenuous and completely misses the point.

Olney reports "Hes out of his damn mind," said AL official. I get going all-in but doesn't have to be massive overpayment. I mean TDA was enough but to throw in Syndergaard??

Sounds like someone is mad they missed out on TDA or Dickey.

EDIT: Actually, who wants to bet the 'official' was Ferrell?

only according to baseball america-whose ranking are consistently terrible and the very basis they use to justify their picks is really just a doctrine of justifying their terrible projections.

looking at other prospect listings we gave up way more -- i didnt bother to check but tell me where sickels ranked micheal taylor?