Higher Trade Value: Deron or Dragic

[FNQ]

I said Deron by a little... his salary drags him down a bit, and he isn't playing as well as before, but it's a new season and he's learning to share the ball with JJ a bit more.

Dragic is a very solid PG but I dont see teams parting with the same amount of prospects to get Dragic as they would with Deron.

[vincecarter4pres]

Would Washington give up John Wall, Okafor and future protected 1st for Deron?

Methinks yes. And if not they'd think it over so long and hard there would be smoke coming out of Ted Leonis' and Ernie Grunfeld's ears.

I think their fans would throw a parade if that deal happened.

Would they even for a second consider the same deal for Goran Dragic? Not unless roofies were involved.

[Trader_Joe]

And no, the Nets would not do that deal as the luxury tax is not a concern of theirs... period.
Otherwise they wouldn't have done the JJ trade, or signed Teletovic or given the deals they did to their players.

Great points.

As to the question, "Why didn't Dragic get more money?"

I'd like to think he received one of the better contracts.

But the longer answer involves questions on why a lot of other players got paid the way they did. I'm sure we could all list off players that are under/overpaid. Doesn't have anything to do with their value to the team, sometimes it owes itself simply to the market.

I think it's a valid question though, given they were both Free agents the same summer. There was also a healthy amount of teams with cap space and a need for a PG.. Dallas, BK, LAL(minus the cap), Indy, Portland, NY (minus the cap), Toronto, etc.

[FNQ]

Just to add to my answer:

I think that a team trading for Dragic would likely get more value than a team trading for Deron.. meaning you'll get more bang for your buck with Dragic. But as to who would command more on the trade market? I think it's Deron by miles and miles and miles.... thats why I landed on Deron by a little. If thats what this thread meant, take one from Deron by a little and move it to Deron by a lot

[Sun Scorched]

And no, the Nets would not do that deal as the luxury tax is not a concern of theirs... period.
Otherwise they wouldn't have done the JJ trade, or signed Teletovic or given the deals they did to their players.

Great points.

As to the question, "Why didn't Dragic get more money?"

I'd like to think he received one of the better contracts.

But the longer answer involves questions on why a lot of other players got paid the way they did. I'm sure we could all list off players that are under/overpaid. Doesn't have anything to do with their value to the team, sometimes it owes itself simply to the market.

I think it's a valid question though, given they were both Free agents the same summer. There was also a healthy amount of teams with cap space and a need for a PG.. Dallas, BK, LAL(minus the cap), Indy, Portland, NY (minus the cap), Toronto, etc.

I tend to think Dallas' play for Deron was explicitly tied to an attempt for Howard. Plus, he's a local product. They swung for the fences and BKN trumped with thier ability to offer a better contract under the new CBA. Agreed - DAL was offering max - no question there.

The involvement of both BKN and DAL pretty much took them out of the running for other FA PGs, but I think if you walk through the teams that competed for guards, it makes sense the way things shook out.

LAL - solved by the staggering PHX/LAL trade - took LAL out of the market and sent PHX into it. More on this in a minute.
Indy - Hill was a solid choice, they were familiar with him, made sense. 5 years, $40M.
Portland - Lillard is their guy, no real need in FA.
NY - MLE probably wasn't going to land any of the younger FA PGs (Lowry, Hill, Dragic, Lin), so they wen't vet. Makes sense.
Toronto - Decided to give up assets to land Lowry, instead of signing Dragic outright. This one, I must admit, I don't quite get. Seems like they're in some funky, half-assed win-now mode, but losing that pick hurts.
Houston - This one seems fairly obvious to me. A team that had massive success with an Asian star, looking to secure another Asian star. Plus, to give credit to Morey here, his willingness to part with Lowry landed him Harden - which no one could have predicted.

Finally, Dragic and Nash have the same agent. It was widely documented how much went into getting Nash to LAL - with his agent essentially begging PHX - oh, and now look, there's a starting PG position open in PHX and I have this other client.....

[x-]

Toronto - Decided to give up assets to land Lowry, instead of signing Dragic outright. This one, I must admit, I don't quite get. Seems like they're in some funky, half-assed win-now mode, but losing that pick hurts.
Houston - This one seems fairly obvious to me. A team that had massive success with an Asian star, looking to secure another Asian star. Plus, to give credit to Morey here, his willingness to part with Lowry landed him Harden - which no one could have predicted.

Raps had interest in Dragic. He just agreed to terms with the Suns before they could talk to him, after missing out on Nash.

Rockets would have re-signed Dragic if he didn't ask for the 4th year player option. That was the lone deal breaker. Rockets only give out player options to stars. Same goes to contract extension.

It was also reported that the Rockets expressed interest in Deron Williams themselves. If he had any desire to play in Houston the Rockets absolutely would have signed him to a max deal. Every team in the league would have and I think you're kidding yourself if you believe otherwise.

By the way, it's quite funny to me that I have to be the one making the case for Deron Williams. I'm not a Nets fan and I always thought he was a bit overrated in his Jazz days. Even with his recent poor play however, I still have no doubt that he's one of the best PGs in the league and one of the best players in the entire league.

[Sun Scorched]

Why would the Suns have offered Deron the max?

[vincecarter4pres]

A lot of prisoner of the moment ITT, to again be quite frank.

[x-]

Why would the Suns have offered Deron the max?

Because he's a really good player and you seldomly get the chance to acquire a player of his magnitude. It's not like he's old either.

[Trader_Joe]

Why would the Suns have offered Deron the max?

They offered a lesser, more injury prone and restricted player the Max.

[Sun Scorched]

Why would the Suns have offered Deron the max?

They offered a lesser, more injury prone and restricted player the Max.

At a position of need - granted. But they could have had Nash, as has been discussed.

Admitedly, it was a stupid and rhetorical question meant simply to prove that, while desirable, I don't think the market for Williams is a large as you would have it seem.

At least half the teams in the league have legit starting PGs and have no need to tie up as much cap in Deron. Among the remaining half of the league, 3 of those teams had the cap (DAL, BKN, HOU) and the rest would have to gut 1/3 of their team via S&T to have secured Williams - which wouldn't have been as attractive as simply adding Williams to your roster implies.

Again - no argument that Williams has high intrinsic value. No argument.

[phx#7]

Why would the Suns have offered Deron the max?

They offered a lesser, more injury prone and restricted player the Max.

I didn't agree with the signing targeting Gordon had a lot to do with his youth and potential. Not to mention his max deal is significantly less than Williams.

[vincecarter4pres]

Here's a good scenario to ponder if we ignore one catch in the CBA...

If New Orleans was set on getting a point guard, which do they offer more for? Deron Williams or Goran Dragic? And what do they offer?

How about the Pacers? Do they give up Paul George and picks for Deron? Or Paul George and George Hill? How about the same for Dragic?

Or how about this? If Memphis was offered Deron Williams for Mike Conley and 2 1sts do they bite? If not how heavily do they consider? What about if it's Dragic offered for the same package?

How much more does Utah offer for Deron back over Dragic?

What about Denver? Are you going to tell me they scoff at Lawson and picks for Deron but even consider dealing Lawson on his own for Dragic?

Come on people, let's be honest with ourselves here.

This isn't even debate worthy.

It doesn't matter much what you think of Deron right now, let's think this through real life, real NBA front office style if that's also the perspective you're answering this in.

[lazfa199]

Considering some of the strong opposing opinions here, one would think that Jrue Holiday and Deron Williams were being compared. Despite his struggles Deron is just a better player and the talent difference is pretty big. In my opinion Dragic is what he is, hes already peaked and hes going to be 27 years old in a couple months. I also don't think hes a top 10 point guard in the league, and I think they suns paid him a little more than what he was worth, they should have given him the same contract that Toronto gave to Lowry.

[Sun Scorched]

Vince4Pres - I agree.

If you ignore salary, it seems silly that we're having this conversation.

[phx#7]

Considering some of the strong opposing opinions here, one would think that Jrue Holiday and Deron Williams were being compared. Despite his struggles Deron is just a better player and the talent difference is pretty big. In my opinion Dragic is what he is, hes already peaked and hes going to be 27 years old in a couple months. I also don't think hes a top 10 point guard in the league, and I think they suns paid him a little more than what he was worth, they should have given him the same contract that Toronto gave to Lowry.

Toronto didn't give Lowry that contract. Lowry got his current contract after putting up 7.6ppg and 3.6apg. Saying Dragic is overpaid is pretty ridiculous. His production vs cost is the only reason this question is being asked and his production compares favorably to the other PGs that were signed or extended for much bigger money in the offseason.

[lazfa199]

Considering some of the strong opposing opinions here, one would think that Jrue Holiday and Deron Williams were being compared. Despite his struggles Deron is just a better player and the talent difference is pretty big. In my opinion Dragic is what he is, hes already peaked and hes going to be 27 years old in a couple months. I also don't think hes a top 10 point guard in the league, and I think they suns paid him a little more than what he was worth, they should have given him the same contract that Toronto gave to Lowry.

Toronto didn't give Lowry that contract. Lowry got his current contract after putting up 7.6ppg and 3.6apg. Saying Dragic is overpaid is pretty ridiculous. His production vs cost is the only reason this question is being asked and his production compares favorably to the other PGs that were signed or extended for much bigger money in the offseason.

My mistake then, I assumed that Lowry was on the first year of a new contract that he received from Toronto.

[vincecarter4pres]

Considering some of the strong opposing opinions here, one would think that Jrue Holiday and Deron Williams were being compared. Despite his struggles Deron is just a better player and the talent difference is pretty big. In my opinion Dragic is what he is, hes already peaked and hes going to be 27 years old in a couple months. I also don't think hes a top 10 point guard in the league, and I think they suns paid him a little more than what he was worth, they should have given him the same contract that Toronto gave to Lowry.

Toronto didn't give Lowry that contract. Lowry got his current contract after putting up 7.6ppg and 3.6apg. Saying Dragic is overpaid is pretty ridiculous. His production vs cost is the only reason this question is being asked and his production compares favorably to the other PGs that were signed or extended for much bigger money in the offseason.

Agreed, Dragic is paid just fine and is a solid player.

But that's why I used the Kevin Love to Paul Millsap analogy.

And for arguments sake let's pretend Millsap is signed for an additional 2 seasons at around $10 to $11 mill a year(more then Goran, but again relative to the position he pays in comparison to the average market for services of such a level of player) so we don't say Millsap is a free agent to be and can and likely will walk, that's not the angle I am shooting for.

[TruthTelling]

Why would the Suns have offered Deron the max?

They offered a lesser, more injury prone and restricted player the Max.

A player who played an entirely different position, is about a half decade younger and whose MAX was only half of what Deron Williams makes.

And no the Suns would not swap Dragic for Williams.

And pretty sure the Wizards would not trade Wall and a first rounder for Williams ever.

[vincecarter4pres]

Vince4Pres - I agree.

If you ignore salary, it seems silly that we're having this conversation.

Nice sarcastic backhanded response.

Come on now, you're taking salary considerations too far and ignoring reality of market and supply and demand.

This isn't MLB money ball, that doesn't work with the NBA and most teams have 1 or 2 max contract or at least very large salary players minimum.

Even considering salary, most any team is going to choose Deron over Dragic if they can just outright sign him or if they get to send out identical asset packages plus salary filler.

The talent gap between Deron and Goran is staggering, no matter where you want to arbitrarily rank them based on 24 games or using a biased opinion exaggerated by using little to no context.

The marketability factor is also an immense divide.

Deron may not be Durant or Lebron, but I don't see Dragic in national advertising campaigns and with Fortune 500 company sponsors. I don't see Dragic basically headlining "The Association".

I don't see Dragic as a relevant polarizing player discussed on sports talk and TV constantly from small market to the biggest media outlets all over the world and throughout the basketball and sports landscape.

I don't see the perception being close in real life NBA team front office war rooms if both players were on the block, or just ideas rival GM's discuss with each other hoping and praying the head honcho on the other end of the phone sees their vision for his own team.


This just isn't close.